59 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Unfortunately the ICT has been overshadowed by the TLT mostly due to range and the cost being only one more point. Stress hog even had its range extended at the cost of one point and loss of ion control.

I would like to add the prevalence of big base ships to this. One damage and one token a turn is not a good investment versus stuff like YT-13s, Decimators, and the like.

quite frankly, being better than the other turrets isnt saying much.

Turrets are weird, not a single one of them does both full damage and has "normal" functionality (ABTs are the closest, no tl/focus requirement and does full damage but its R1 only so its got its weirdness too)
TLT's could have simply been a 3die HLC turret and it would have been considered the "best turret" even if it in the end was sorta meh. Why? Long range, arcless more than 1 damage attacks that also deny R3 bonuses.

This is the ultimate reason TLTs are considered the best turret, the other turrets are so heavily limited either in damage output or range or have a cost/requirement or multiples of the above. Sync'd Turrets are the closest to TLT's damage output, but the R1-2 and TLock requirement keeps them from getting any recognition in comparison. I imagine giving it the same kind of restriction would be enough to stop the bulk of TLT abuses (i.e. give it the "Must have a Tlock" clause or something)

Or, how about:

TLTs only get the second shot if the first shot was IN ARC.

Att:3. Range 2-3

Attack one enemy ship, even one not in your primary firing arc. If your attack hits cancel all dice and assign one damage to target.

If you are firing within your primary firing arc you may perform this attack twice.

On 27/2/2018 at 10:23 AM, Hannes Solo said:

If there was no TLT:

- Other Turrets would be used.

- Arcs would matter.

- Metagame was more diverse

- FFG would give us proper fixes for Y-Wings and HWKs

Very few turrets would be used, since non-primary weapon non-tlt turrets are really bad. Probably we would have just some mirandas with autoblaster, stressbot Y with Ion and some ghosts with synched. That's it.

Arcs already matter. And you are forgetting how prevalent things like Decimator and Fat Han were before TLT. Those ships have a way worse turret to face than TLT, TLT at least has the donut hole and can be counterplayed. Try that to RAC

Metagame would different, not diverse

Arguable and even if they would, FFG "fixes" aren't doing so great: other than the design mistake that was x/7, most fixes kinda fell short (veksai and heavy scyk for example)

On 27/2/2018 at 1:19 PM, Stay On The Leader said:

I just want to point out that before TLT came along the game was still really boring and full of turrets. TLT was created to smash the dominance of Dash/Han/Chiraneau.

So much this. I'm starting to think most of the players speaking against TLT didn't play when Decifell or Fat Han were a thing. They are way worse than TLT

On 27/2/2018 at 10:20 PM, Vineheart01 said:

i always saw TLT as an anti-tokenstack attack rather than anti-fatship

Fatships generally have enough hp where unless you spammed TLTs (hmm...that happens alot it seems) they usually would kill you first anyway.
Tokenstacking ships generally dont have much health, 6 being the highest that has both agility and stackability. Even a single TLT can wreck their day. They can dodge both attacks but its quite rare for them to do it without burning their stack, thus being vulnerable to the next attack.

But i could see wurms' #1 point being valid too. Either that or a Gunner effect (if this attack misses, perform it again. You may not attack again this round) would stop it from being so overbearingly good.

One makes it chew threw low agi but remove its universal strength against ALL ships while the other lowers the damage cap while keeping its difficult-to-evade properties.

TLT is both an anti-tokenstacker and an anti-fatship.

And I beleive it's doing its job right, fatship and tokenstackers usually offer less counterplay option than a TLT ship not called Miranda

21 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Tlt is IMO abusing the secondary weapon rule for range 3.

It's boring and punishes players for not playing 3 agility + auto thrusters.

Third it outclasses all other secondary turrets with maybe exception of autoblaster with it's special rule and low point cost.

If ships like hwk and y-wings need tlt too work, then we have a balance problem in the game.

Something needs too be done, Nerf or buffs.

So have you forgotten about HLCs?

25 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

So have you forgotten about HLCs?

Hlc is 1point more, requires the enemy in arc and only attack once. It also doesn't mer miranda shoot twice and regen or gives you 4 attacks like ty herren Ghost.

Nope I haven't forgotten ?

Just now, jocke01 said:

Hlc is 1point more, requires the enemy in arc and only attack once. It also doesn't mer miranda shoot twice and regen or gives you 4 attacks like ty herren Ghost.

Nope I haven't forgotten ?

and does twice as much damage, and can even crit.

Yeah before the timing chart ment to nerf Jumpmasters from using R3-Agromech/Deadeye combo the Ghost only had 3 attacks. Maybe they should revisit that timing chart.

2 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

and does twice as much damage, and can even crit.

Yeah before the timing chart ment to nerf Jumpmasters from using R3-Agromech/Deadeye combo the Ghost only had 3 attacks. Maybe they should revisit that timing chart.

And costs twice the points it should be better.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

And costs twice the points it should be better.

you think people would learn by now.

more don't equal better. Pilot Skill 4 is arguably worse than Pilot Skill 2.

Still do you think that the Ghost should be reverted back to title only giving it a single TLT attack instead of a new one?

Seriously youre comparing Outrider HLC to TLTs?

Its literally 2x the freakin cost and only works on 1 ship, said ship is terrible without it too. It SHOULD be deadlier by a large margin - yet technically its only slightly stronger because its easier to dodge a large chunk of it if not all of it than a TLT w/ tokenstacks.

7 hours ago, Marinealver said:

you think people would learn by now.

more don't equal better. Pilot Skill 4 is arguably worse than Pilot Skill 2.

Still do you think that the Ghost should be reverted back to title only giving it a single TLT attack instead of a new one?

More SHOULD equal better.

That it doesn't in many, many cases is bad design.

The title never only gave one TLT shot.

I've set out half a dozen different possible TLT fixes. My personal preference is 'perform this attack twice if you have a lock on the target or it is in your primary firing arc'.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

More SHOULD equal better.

That it doesn't in many, many cases is bad design.

The title never only gave one TLT shot.

I've set out half a dozen different possible TLT fixes. My personal preference is 'perform this attack twice if you have a lock on the target or it is in your primary firing arc'.

It did. (FAQ Archives page 15 version 4.1.2)

Quote

If a ship is equipped with the Phantom title and is docked to the Ghost, and performs an attack with Twin Laser Turret at the end of the Combat phase, that ship cannot perform the second attack from Twin Laser Turret.

Before the timing chart TLT on a ghost would constitute one TLT attack not letting the second attack go through. It wasn't until after the timing chart that ghost TLTs had 2 attacks in the end phase.

As for more should equal better in a perfect game yes but as we all know X-wing is not a perfect game because frankly there is no perfect game. So point sinks is a thing to consider. Now Outrider with HLC at its time was no point sink.

Huh.

Fair enough.

10 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Yeah before the timing chart ment to nerf Jumpmasters from using R3-Agromech/Deadeye combo the Ghost only had 3 attacks. Maybe they should revisit that timing chart.

Yeah I’m still miffed about the ruling for tokens and costs spent to start an attack being a separate thing than the attack itself. Completely nerfed BT R4 Kavil and other cool interactions.

So HLC Outrider is 12 points, gives a 2 att PWT a range 2-3 4 die no crit turret.

Punishing One is 12 points, gives a 2 att PWT a 3 att PWT.

both unique. One has range defense denial but range one donut hole, and the other has a 4 die range 1.

so I suppose this is equivilant. And at least 3 times as good as a 3 att range 1-2 turret and requires a spent focus. It’s very hard to get a 3 die PWT if you aren’t a large ship already. The closest to that is BT and even with range restriction it still costs an action.

Then we have TLT, which is basically a super accurate 3 die turret, lacking the range one band but denying range defense bonus. Very similar to the Outrider HLC situation. I can’t say whether 6 dice spread over 2 attacks is equivalent to a 4 die attack but Cluster Missiles makes for that kind of argument. The trick is that TLT is ‘capped’ by doing one damage an attack, so no hope for spike damage no matter how good your mods or how much you’ve tech’d away the defense.

another interesting case is the Hot Shot Blaster with Scavenger Crane. It’s 5 pts, only one ship can take it and it’s got a pseudo PWT already. It provides that 3 die turret we covet but it’s only range 1-3, and it’s only garanteed two shots.

(The strange case of hot shot blaster vaksai x3 with Trandoshan Jabba is impossible the compare since there’s multiple ships in the mix and a force multiplier. Don’t forget the free Munitions failsafes!)

So how much would this cost:

Single Laser Turret (turret upgrade, duh)

Att 3, range 1-3

attack one ship (even a ship outside your firing arc).

How about if it was just range 1-2 or 2-3? Would it be the same price as TLT? Would it be as good as TLT on current turret carriers?

and do FFG employees stay up late at night worrying about this? (No, no they don’t)

Something needs to be done, TLT has basically mothballed all agility 1 ships espescially since they rarely have the tools to park themselves in the donut.

6 minutes ago, Henshini said:

Something needs to be done, TLT has basically mothballed all agility 1 ships espescially since they rarely have the tools to park themselves in the donut.

That's a bit exaggerated. If you look up tournament data, you will see three single agi ships (the K-Wing, the Wookiee gunship, and the Scurgg) actually doing pretty well, as well as some good glimpses of the ARC. That's not even looking at big base ships.

While TLT hurts 1 agi ships, it isn't mothballing all of them.

I don't know what the scurgg in those lists is doing other than being at PS10, but the kwing has regen and the gunship has reinforce. All are more resilient than the b-wings, G1As, y-wings, etc.

Incidentally, 2 of those have a TLT slot which probably makes them powerful enough to be worth the vulnerability.

1 minute ago, Henshini said:

I don't know what the scurgg in those lists is doing other than being at PS10, but the kwing has regen and the gunship has reinforce. All are more resilient than the b-wings, G1As, y-wings, etc.

Incidentally, 2 of those have a TLT slot which probably makes them powerful enough to be worth the vulnerability.

Fair, but that doesn't exclude them from being 1 agi ships. You have a case for ships like B-Wings, but distort that case when you make an exaggerated blanket statement. And we still haven't touched large base ships.

Also, TLT doesn't necessarily make it worth it as the Y-Wing can also take it, but is listed with those that are oppressed.

No, Miranda and Nym's TLTs combined with their other competencies make them worth it despite thier one agility. All Ywings have is volume and it isn't enough any more. Regardless, TLTs remove chice from the game and in my option, that's bad.

31 minutes ago, Henshini said:

No, Miranda and Nym's TLTs combined with their other competencies make them worth it despite thier one agility. All Ywings have is volume and it isn't enough any more. Regardless, TLTs remove chice from the game and in my option, that's bad.

I see what you mean, but at this point, I think removing TLT would remove more options than it might open up.

7 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Seriously youre comparing Outrider HLC to TLTs?

Its literally 2x the freakin cost and only works on 1 ship, said ship is terrible without it too. It SHOULD be deadlier by a large margin - yet technically its only slightly stronger because its easier to dodge a large chunk of it if not all of it than a TLT w/ tokenstacks.

TLTs are utterly useless against PTL focus + evade aces. You're looking at something like a 0.1% chance of damage.

Lone Wolf Dash, on the other hand, has a very good chance of doing a damage a turn, and almost guarantees stripping all the defender's tokens. Dash is stapled to Outrider, and Dash, flown well, can easily get shots for the first 10 combat rounds against most lists, even without help from his wingman.

On 2/26/2018 at 4:51 PM, GrimmyV said:

Horton hates your idea.

Nerf the ships, not the turret. TLT is actually a good, mostly balanced upgrade.

No way, man. TLT is not balanced at all. Not even close. Some people did the math on the equivalent damage it does, and it's approximately the equivalent of chucking around 3.50-3.62 red dice. Here, let me link you all the thread. This thread also uses actual results from Worlds, so this isn't just theory and numbers pulled out of someone's butt. The data is legit.
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/191287-tlt-by-the-numbers/

Now, using the formula from my thread, which can extremely accurately predict point costs of current and non-released ships, I'll plug in the data from the other thread to calculate how powerful a Y-Wing with TLT really is.
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/238121-discovered-official-formula-for-ship-stat-pricing/

base stat line cost (meaning the PS1 point cost) = 2(attack) * [(hull + shields) / (5 - agility) + 1.5]

Realistically, the red dice equivalent range of TLT should be in the 3.50-3.62 range, but those numbers also don't account for the fact that secondary weapons ignore range 3 modifiers, meaning that the effective damage is actually a bit higher. However, let's treat TLT as 3.5 red dice, anyways.

Now, the formula from my thread treats turrets as being worth an extra red die more than their standard primary firing arc equivalent, meaning that a 4 red die attack standard firing arc has a point cost value equal to a 3 red dice turret. This means that TLT throwing the equivalent of 3.5 red dice is equivalent to a 4.5 standard firing arc. Now with this knowledge, we can combine all the data to predict the point cost value of the stats of a Y-Wing with TLT.

2(attack) * [(hull + shields) / (5 - agility) + 1.5] = base stat line point cost
2(4.5) * [(5+ 3) / (5 - 1) + 1.5] = 31.5 points

This means that the Y-Wing's stats are worth 31.5 points, which is a whopping 7.5 points above what you pay for at 24 points. However, there is a "catch." TLT cannot hit at range 1, although this is mostly (but not entirely) offset by its lack of range 3 negative modifier. Is that difference REALLY worth 7.5 points? **** no. Just to put things into perspective, the lack of K-turn on an Auzituck Gunship saves it 2-3 points from where its stat line should suggest. Even if the TLT donut hole was worth 2.5 points of savings, that means a TLT Y-Wing is STILL around 5 points overpowered.

TLDR: TLT is not balanced at all.

And to finish the thought, nor are some of the ships it can go on. But that doesn't mean TLT shouldn't be balanced, it means THOSE ships should be.

The Ghost would be fine without TLT. Miranda would be fine...r without TLT. Nym would be fine without TLT.

Y Wings and HWKs and Aggressors would be in trouble, but the answer is to fix those ships, not keep TLT hilariously OP in order to keep those ships... not really viable anyway because better TLT users horribly murder them.

I mean, double-especially elite Y Wing pilots. Using them as an excuse not to fix TLT is like using Kavil as an excuse not to fix Mindlink because he was made better by it.

18 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

And to finish the thought, nor are some of the ships it can go on. But that doesn't mean TLT shouldn't be balanced, it means THOSE ships should be.

The Ghost would be fine without TLT. Miranda would be fine...r without TLT. Nym would be fine without TLT.

Y Wings and HWKs and Aggressors would be in trouble, but the answer is to fix those ships, not keep TLT hilariously OP in order to keep those ships... not really viable anyway because better TLT users horribly murder them.

I mean, double-especially elite Y Wing pilots. Using them as an excuse not to fix TLT is like using Kavil as an excuse not to fix Mindlink because he was made better by it.

I think Y-wings are about on the B-wing power level without the TLT; maybe a bit above. HWKs and Aggressors are really up the creek though. I'm currently leaning on the following fix for TLTs:

Twin Laser Turret (6 points, Turret)
Attack: Perform this attack (even against a ship outside your firing arc). | If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage, then cancel all dice results. | After you perform this attack, if you are not stressed, you may receive 1 stress token to perform this attack again.

Completely ruins current Miranda, Nym and Ghost builds. Keeps Y-wings (especially unhinged ones) functioning as normal, ad both aggressors and HWKs have their own ways of dealing with stress.

Probably about the same if you give them ICT, title, and FAA, but being on a par with a B Wing isn't particularly a selling point.

That's also a nerf which could work. There are SO many options.

My favourite is still 'perform this attack twice if you have a lock on the target or it is in your primary firing arc' (or even 'after attacking perform this attack a second time if' so that you can't use the TL on the first attack).

Makes getting arc more important, makes leading in a stern-chase much, much harder, makes double tapping Ghosts a lot less threatening unless they pay another 2 points for FCS (and in the latter case, means that their mods are a lot less reliable).