7 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Exactly. It is definitely a soft nerf, which is what TLT needs I think. It would just force more hard decisions, which is what the game should be about. Also if the Ghost used or lost its focus token during the combat round it can't use the title to double tap with the TLT later. It would be less abusive overall without completely killing it.

Get it now.

Easily the most fun sucking upgrade in the game, I would be happy if we forgot about that card.

5 hours ago, Astech said:

The trouble with that is that numerous packs which contain TLTs become super redundant, and ships like the HWK really do suck without them. My proposed fix is:

TLT (6 points, turret)
Yada yada, yada. If your hull value is 5 or more, you can only equip one additional upgrade card in addition to this card.

Boom, done. HWKs, Aggressors, Attack Shuttles and Y-wings aren't affected, whereas the triumvirate of point fortresses (Ghost/Fenn, Miranda and Nym) are nerfed into oblivion. Most players agree they're NPEs anyway, so no loss there.

y-wings have 5 hull

Wall. To wall. Dash.

If TLT goes then Outrider has to go too.

6 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Errata TLT so it has the Attack: (Focus) header

It's a small debuff that allows it to be shut down by bumping and obstacles and makes it harder to combo with repositioning (since you'll need to focus instead of boosting or barrel rolling.)

So... the best counter to anything with TLT would be hotcop. Which Ghost Fenn has...

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Man. to think that we once considered TLT to be the worst OP upgrade...

Then you get the hot mess that is Tragedy Simulator + Genius. And Deadeye and Attanni with GC and Proton Torps.

Tragedy Simulator. Hahahah ???

Great one. ?

21 minutes ago, Makaze said:

So... the best counter to anything with TLT would be hotcop. Which Ghost Fenn has...

...and any other list with a crew slot that can shoot before a Lothal Rebel. Or anything that can give out Jam tokens, or Wes Janson. Or any list that can do stress control for that matter. It would open up some options.

We would at least have some counters, because right now the only counter to TLT is Autothrusters and that's far from guaranteed.

1 minute ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

...and any other list with a crew slot that can shoot before a Lothal Rebel. Or anything that can give out Jam tokens, or Wes Janson. Or any list that can do stress control for that matter. It would open up some options.

We would at least have some counters, because right now the only counter to TLT is Autothrusters and that's far from guaranteed.

And it's donut hole. Lists might have an answer for that downside, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Wall. To wall. Dash.

If TLT goes then Outrider has to go too.

SOunds good to me.

The TLT doesn't need to go away it's solid turret that brings other stuff inline.

I've said a few times now; all it needs is two things

1. Make it unique, TLT is a problem in multiples, adding that removes this.

2. Add to the end of the card "Assign a Weapon Disabled token to this ship" this stops ghost spamming it.

IMHO this is all it needs. 1 TLT is fine (maybe even two like Mindlink)

If there was no TLT:

- Other Turrets would be used.

- Arcs would matter.

- Metagame was more diverse

- FFG would give us proper fixes for Y-Wings and HWKs

Ditching TLT entirely would be a good thing. The card is simply not fun.

I'd settle for a minor nerf of TLT. Making it unique and/or somehow make it impossible for a Ghost to use it twice (4 shots) in a turn which is massively un-fun...

10 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Okay okay okay so what if TLT was “HWK-290 only” then?

I like this idea. With the hwk dial being so poor and pilot skills being low-ish, the donut hole is easier to get into.

Yes it ruins 4x ywing / aggressor but those are not top tier, and are commonly called out as negative player experiences.

Hawk also has 1 attack die so even diving into range one in arc is no great ordeal.

"After rolling the attack dice, choose a number of dice equal to your primary attack value. You cannot modify those dice."

I just want to point out that before TLT came along the game was still really boring and full of turrets. TLT was created to smash the dominance of Dash/Han/Chiraneau.

Personally, the TLT is balance on Ys, Hawks, generic Ks, generic H-6s, and the attack Shuttle. It is truly OP in 2 places. Ghost and Miranda.

Fix for the Ghost: The second turret attack needs to be on the Phantom, not the ghost. If you want your 4 fully modded TLT shots, you gotta pay for another TLT. Second, for Miranda, make her ability reduce the attack value of the weapon she is using. Aka, if she wants to use it on the TLT, she will only be able to fire two 2-dice attacks. Neither destroys builds nor does it break anything completely. It just requires a new way of thinking about things.

TLT on Kyle is my go to ship, and I love my focus factory.

Oh, and BLASTER TURRET SHOULDN'T HAVE TO SPEND THE FOCUS.

49 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I just want to point out that before TLT came along the game was still really boring and full of turrets. TLT was created to smash the dominance of Dash/Han/Chiraneau.

Before TLT: really boring and full of turrets.

After TLT: nothing changed except that the turrets got MORE boring.

37 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Before TLT: really boring and full of turrets.

After TLT: nothing changed except that the turrets got MORE boring.

Which is genuinely one of the best arguments for leaving TLT in the game.

Being more boring is better than being less boring?

o_O

1 hour ago, Stinger07 said:

Second, for Miranda, make her ability reduce the attack value of the weapon she is using. Aka, if she wants to use it on the TLT, she will only be able to fire two 2-dice attacks.

As much as I dislike TLT, I think that nerfing it won't be enough for Miranda. I agree with the idea that her ability should be primary only.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Being more boring is better than being less boring?

o_O

Well more/less is subjective. But that it would solve nothing.

What you actually want to do is change TLT in a way that's still supressive to the big fat turrets but reduces it's oppressive impact on the rest of the field. Removing it outright just replaces one problem with another problem.

TLT IS big fat turrets though.

The Ghost is just the latest in a long, long list of point fortress TLT builds, starting (and continuing) with Miranda.

Suggesting otherwise is just obtuse.

So in addition to fixing it such that it does that, you would also need to fix it so that those ships can't USE it either.

I've missed when Miranda with just TLT was dominating the game, I thought she was about missiles and bombs and things as well? My mistake.

You need to be careful to separate "times when thing was a problem" from "times when there was a problem and thing was along for the ride".

You're adding a 'just' to my post which wasn't there. See aforementioned comment about being obtuse.

Miranda has been a fat turret point fortress for as long as she's been in the game. TLT is a huge part of how she's able to do that. Take it away from her and she has a lot fewer options for how to fortress, and her regen works a lot less well.

The Ghost too.

Nym as well.

There are turret-slot ships it's not problematic on, but they are relatively few and far between (Basically, Y Wing aces, Aggressor aces, and HWKs). I'd concur that fat turrets need some way of corralling them to stop them ruling everything, but I'd include the most common TLT carriers in the definition of 'fat turret', not the solution to it.

Solving a problem by replacing it with a functionally identical problem isn't a solution at all.