So our local brick and mortar here had some big shake up in our X-wing community. Most of the guys who had been playing for a while resigned to pursue Legion, or Destiny or both. So leaves me as the senior member of a group that is rebuilding and has a lot of newer players.

So trying a lot of creative List, but we still are doing league so I’m still trying to play to win in that format. I’ve flown as little meta as I can, though Achievements or special rules have made it a bit tough. I’m trying to talk after matches about list what they faced what they saw, why it was effective against them. Even using my blog to recap so everyone can learn. Yet still have those days like today. Opponent didn’t fly a terrible list, but the skill level was very obvious and still kind of felt bad.

Other folks who have run into this? Best way to deal without playing down to their level or making it obvious your not playing tournament or cutthroat level games against them?

here is the blog, thoughts and feedback welcome.

http://jacklesquadron.blogspot.com/

Hmm, that's a tough one. I'm not necessarily the "senior member" of my group, but more and more I find myself playing against newer players, as a lot of our older players have gotten busy with jobs, kids, etc.

Usually, my response is to play something that takes a lot of skill to fly and/or isn't tier 1, such as TIE Interceptors, A-Wings, mid-level pilots (like Eaden Vrill and Chewbacca), etc.

But I still find myself in those "oh, I'm curbstomping this person " situations.

One way to react is to help the person out with their list, and help them build something easier to fly. I don't necessarily like encouraging degenerate and unwholesome "meta" lists, but a new player will, for example, have a lot better time with Dash Rendar than with Darth Vader. Also, the best way to help a new player is to advise them which packs to purchase next. There's no experience as disheartening to a newbie as buying a cool ship only to learn that it's horribly underpowered and doesn't come with any of the upgrades it needs to be competitive.

But once the game has started, I don't change how I play. If I want a new player to get better, I want that player to get experience playing against a good opponent and seeing how a skilled player flies. And I don't want them to feel patronized. Various podcasters, world championship attendees, and other "good" players frequently destroyed me when I started playing. And I never begrudged them that. When it comes down to it, we learn a lot more by losing than by winning.

I will say that as a new player, it's nice to feel like you're on an even playing field. Generally, I go to meta-wing, look at pilots and ships and archetypes, and try not to fly anything in the top 5 or so, or if I fly something really good, I try experimental (read: sub-optimal) upgrades on there (BB-8 and PTL on Poe, VI on Rey, Scavenger Crane and Countermeasures on Dash, Targeting Computer on Soontir, Cannons on GUNBOATS, etc.). And some people are competitive enough that they will quit if they don't win at least sometimes, so it's nice to always have a backup "bad" list. Try building something around Eaden Vrill or Turr Phennir, for example.

Also just wanted to say that I really like this topic, and it's nice that you care so much about how welcome newer players feel! The power curve of this game can be frustrating, but also rewarding, and it's always nice when older players have a nice, non-condescending way of helping newer players.

Perhaps replace the league with more casual game-nights, since most of the folks are newer players anyways.

12 minutes ago, Scarloochie said:

Perhaps replace the league with more casual game-nights, since most of the folks are newer players anyways.

They wanted the league. A chance to play other folks, while friendly competition against their usual circles. The Achievements do force some odd list building which makes it tough on new players as well. I’m not in charge of the league though so all I can do is work through what I can.

as a longish time player who exclusively plays casually with friends, my advice is dont fly any list that aims to deny your opponent choices, and let their decisions matter.

i know that sounds weird, but if your match is about decisions it'll be fun both players win or lose.

1 hour ago, Ronu said:

So our local brick and mortar here had some big shake up in our X-wing community. Most of the guys who had been playing for a while resigned to pursue Legion, or Destiny or both. So leaves me as the senior member of a group that is rebuilding and has a lot of newer players.

So trying a lot of creative List, but we still are doing league so I’m still trying to play to win in that format. I’ve flown as little meta as I can, though Achievements or special rules have made it a bit tough. I’m trying to talk after matches about list what they faced what they saw, why it was effective against them. Even using my blog to recap so everyone can learn. Yet still have those days like today. Opponent didn’t fly a terrible list, but the skill level was very obvious and still kind of felt bad.

Other folks who have run into this? Best way to deal without playing down to their level or making it obvious your not playing tournament or cutthroat level games against them?

here is the blog, thoughts and feedback welcome.

http://jacklesquadron.blogspot.com/

I drop my list to 75 points. =D

If the gap is very intense, just say it. What's the worse that could happen? They win, have a good time. Slowly wean them up. 80 points, then 85, then 90, then 95. If after 5 games they can't get up to speed... well. They're unlikely to.

Pit them against others, instead of yourself.

Abolustely do not play anything meta. 4 Xwing, 4 Bwings. etc. 4 Tie Advances.

Try flying ships you don’t have as much experience with and be creative with your lists. Don’t go easy on them, as in my opinion that will do more harm in the long run.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

I drop my list to 75 points. =D

If the gap is very intense, just say it. What's the worse that could happen? They win, have a good time. Slowly wean them up. 80 points, then 85, then 90, then 95. If after 5 games they can't get up to speed... well. They're unlikely to.

Pit them against others, instead of yourself.

Abolustely do not play anything meta. 4 Xwing, 4 Bwings. etc. 4 Tie Advances.

So league is on a schedule weekly draw. 1 week Achievements are used to quell any potential Meta repeat and too often facing NPE. Second week has a special rules to them (example, no target locks permitted) and then an open week to allow some creativity. All I can do is play who I get matched up with.

The 100/6 format allows player skill to make a big difference, both in squadbuilding and on-table performance. New players tend to be relatively weak in both areas.

As long as your group defaults to the 100/6 format -- like most store groups do -- new players will either come back for more punishment because they enjoy it, or they will stop showing up. You shouldn't feel bad for playing the game to the best of your ability, even if you know you might be helping to end an X-Wing player's interest in competitive gameplay.

I used to think it was a good idea to run bad squads against new players so that they could ease into the game, but it's just creating a false sense of fun, giving them a sense of what kitchen table X-Wing is like. These days I think it's better to throw new players right into the fray with the experienced players and let them decide if store X-Wing is worth their time or if they'll have more fun playing on the kitchen table.

31 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I drop my list to 75 points. =D

If the gap is very intense, just say it. What's the worse that could happen? They win, have a good time. Slowly wean them up. 80 points, then 85, then 90, then 95. If after 5 games they can't get up to speed... well. They're unlikely to.

Pit them against others, instead of yourself.

Abolustely do not play anything meta. 4 Xwing, 4 Bwings. etc. 4 Tie Advances.

Gonna have to say no to 4 B-wings. 32 health spread over 4 ships, means you’ll end most matches with at least 3 B-wings sitting on various amounts of hull points. You’ll be better off flying double ghosts/deci.

Just now, FlyingAnchors said:

Gonna have to say no to 4 B-wings. 32 health spread over 4 ships, means you’ll end most matches with at least 3 B-wings sitting on various amounts of hull points. You’ll be better off flying double ghosts/deci.

What in all quarks? Are you kiddding?? Ghosts are the utterly a pain in the *** to ply against, and the 4 dice primaries will wreck new players. And the Ghosts have the same 32 health (minus 1 green dice, which doesn't save Bwings).

No, what the heck are you talking about. And for much cheaper. And forget about adding turrets.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

What in all quarks? Are you kiddding?? Ghosts are the utterly a pain in the *** to ply against, and the 4 dice primaries will wreck new players. And the Ghosts have the same 32 health (minus 1 green dice, which doesn't save Bwings).

No, what the heck are you talking about. And for much cheaper. And forget about adding turrets.

Unless your new player is flying some meta list variant, I would not put them up against 4Bs. To many targets with high health, unless they focus fire their not killing a B-wing a turn, and I wouldn’t expect most newer players to have that figured out yet. So what you end up with is one new player getting tabled and 4 B-wings with various hit points left in your squad. It is not a good idea to run BBBB at newer players unless you’re a total klutz with flying them, then by all means. The list was meta back in the day for a reason.

thats why I said you might as well run double ghost if you’re going to run 4Bs. It’ll net you the same result, just faster. Because I see a lot of newer players not focus fire and just hit whatever they can get in arc. (Which is totally understandable)

I just don’t think it is a good list to fly against a newer player.

Try porkins, istabim, and Dutch. That’s a fun beginner list.

I'm new myself, though not a store goer. Learning the game with my young sons. I'm no better than them so list strength means nothing, lol, but I do avoid flying anything that interferes with their choices (as mentioned above). So no stress control, limited ion and tractor, no harpoons, Kylo for them but not for me, I try to avoid forcing crits through shields in general. Mostly I use small, arc based ships with manoevre type upgrades. All so they can get into the mechanics of just flying and making shots count. I also tend to disengage and open up rather than go in, bump, furball and range 1 things to death.

All in all, we have a lot of fun but I'm not exactly at the level where I really need to pull my punches against them

10 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

as a longish time player who exclusively plays casually with friends, my advice is dont fly any list that aims to deny your opponent choices, and let their decisions matter.

i know that sounds weird, but if your match is about decisions it'll be fun both players win or lose.

I'll 3rd this sentiment. Also, since you can't control who you play, have 2 lists. One good list, and one fluffier list that doesn't deny actions. Try not to run rebel Regen as well. Pick any movie, inspire a list, run with it. Something like Vader and two tie fighters (trench run), or Han Solo Falcon with Luke Skywalker crew and C3P0, etc. I think the key here is to let the newish opponent know you brought 2 lists, one I'm-considering-this-for-worlds type list, and one where there's lots more quotes and character interaction throughout the game. The opponent will know what they're up for and choose accordingly.

For new players around here we always try and highlight the flying aspect of the game. During a league night would it be possible to run a Mario Kart side game (easy setup/widely variable rules to accommodate)? Rules allow for respawning so everyone plays all the way to the end and allows someone their favorite ship. Not to mention that Pilot skill makes a huge difference, as well as lots of obstacles to fly around.

Best advice I can give for being the Senior Member of a young gaming group:

(1) Start every other sentence by taking a deep breath, long sigh, and then saying "Back in my day..."
(2) Frequently complain that young new players are lazy and entitled and want their list to do all the work for them
(3) Note how "X-Wing" has lost its way, and that newer less-familiar ships need to be kept out of the game so the "true Star Wars" ships like X-Wings and TIEs can return to enjoying the central focus they once did
(4) Proceed to routinely lose to these same new kids as you fade into irrelevance

Make less optimal decisions on purpose "to try things out" and figure out how to get out of horrible positions. Quickly set your dials and don't touch them again. Another one of those "deal with the consequences." Play to teach. Set up situations where the other player has to figure out the best move then ask if they want to talk through it.

I've started playing "bomblet wing" against my 8 y.o. son since, as good as he is, I got much better, much faster over the last 2+ years. Basically, before you place your ships, they each get a bomblet to the face and you have to deal with the consequences. Starting a game with a direct hit-ed Soontir will make you a much, much better player, even though it's a harrowing experience to go through. We're debating making it a 3 dice bomblet, so adjust according to how wide the skill chasm is.

When the skill levels are different enough, you have to find other ways to have fun that are still fun for the other player. Even casual formats won't necessarily make a dent.

I'm currently one of the more senior/skilled players in my group. Whenever I'm playing a newer player, even if I'm playing a top-tier list (which isn't often, but it happens, and if I know the player is new and not just to the group, I'll probably switch out of a top list -- though I have a habit of playing odd lists anyways), I make sure to point out opportunities they may be missing, and even discuss the options: "Why might a target lock be better than an evade here?" or vice versa. The key is to not be patronizing about it. You can also ask if they'd like advice or not -- some players want to let their mistakes stand (I do), because making a mistake, especially a crucial one, is a good way to learn to not make that mistake again. After a game, if they're interested, go over what happened, and perhaps discuss what other options there might be for list-building while staying within the general concept their list already had.

Really, what it comes down to is dependent on what the newer player is looking for -- if it's just a casual game, put away your top-tier tournament list and play a more casual one. If they're looking to improve their game, play it -- the best way to get better aside from more practice is to play against better/more experienced players.

In the original post here, with the league, which sounds semi-competitive (competitive, but with league modifications), I'd play the best list I could build for it if I cared about possibly winning the league, but I'd also try to point out missed opportunities within the games themselves. After all, even IF I'm the absolute best player in my group, I'm not likely to stay at the top of my game or even improve if all I'm doing is taking advantage of mistakes/playing weaker lists. The other option is to intentionally build lists with things you've never played/don't often play to challenge yourself to better understand those ships and the game as a whole. Last year I did a "play all pilots in the game in a single year" challenge (not my idea), and it really helps you learn more about the game in general, not to mention what every pilot in the game is capable of. This year, I'm forcing myself to build lists to make use of the upgrades I've never used -- cards that "on paper" look like total garbage, and because of that/a better option existing, I've never used. I played my first such game this past Saturday, and confirmed that one such card is indeed too restrictive and overcosted for its effect, but also discovered an interesting, yet difficult-to-fly combo with another unused upgrade. It's still substandard compared to the other options available for the slots, but it is interesting, and because it's not something easy to pull off, required me to actually think about what I was doing pretty much every turn of the game, where with a more standard build I might have a dial down in seconds, already knowing exactly what the ship needed to do.

There's a difference between this situation and doing demo games, which I'll usually do my best to lose while not looking completely incompetent. Had one demo game where, for the purpose of demonstrating how something worked, stepped back after a blanked-out defense roll by the person I was teaching and said, "Okay, let's pretend you rolled X instead." And yes, teaching games like that often involve making intentional mistakes (and often pointing them out afterwards).

Another thing we occasionally do in our group is when we have an odd number of players. The odd man out spectates, but plays the "guess which maneuver each ship is doing every turn" game. Once all dials are down and the two players playing are on to the activation phase, before each dial is flipped, the spectator announces out loud what maneuver he expects the active ship to be doing. After the ship has activated, if the guess was different than the actual move, both players and the spectator can discuss why the move performed was different, why the spectator would have done something different, and which is "better" for the current situation.

It's beneficial to players of all skills.

The thing is that being a league some "not going easy" should be expected. I understand not wanting to run the new guys off but since it is a league there isn't anything wrong with bringing good lists and playing well. You can't just abuse them but you can't coddle them too much either. My personal inclinations would be to:

Bring straightforward lists that don't have a lot of complicated to follow combos.

Bring lists that have to be flown well. Don't bring any "easy mode" lists.

Avoid "extreme" lists like the seven z-95 list from the cracking the metagame article. Maybe keep lists to things you can build for under $100/$125 retail or from only one faction's expansions.

Go easy on taking the variance out of the dice. Let the dice matter a bit. This is a tough one because "good lists" and "good flying" minimize the variance.

Explain how your list works or at least suggest your "new guy" opponent look over your list and understand how it works. Make them think about how the game might go before starting.

Check their list over and make sure they know any errata or FAQ rulings for their list. Make sure they understand their list.

I'd second Drjekel's suggestion of playing fast or less optimally (without being obviously patronizing.)

Don't beat yourself up about being the most experienced player. Again I understand not wanting to run the new guys off but you've put the time in to be good and it is okay that you're better than them.

4 minutes ago, Eisai said:

This year, I'm forcing myself to build lists to make use of the upgrades I've never used -- cards that "on paper" look like total garbage, and because of that/a better option existing, I've never used. I played my first such game this past Saturday, and confirmed that one such card is indeed too restrictive and overcosted for its effect, but also discovered an interesting, yet difficult-to-fly combo with another unused upgrade. It's still substandard compared to the other options available for the slots, but it is interesting, and because it's not something easy to pull off, required me to actually think about what I was doing pretty much every turn of the game,

This is a really good point and something I keep doing. It's definitely helping me learn. As a fairly mainstream example, I built a list around Omega Ace's 5 crit trick, aimed towards getting it through Black One and Countermeasures on Plot Armour Dash/Poe. I lost because the list is kind of a one trick pony and when a key ship in the synergy goes, you haven't much to fall back on but also because my boys recognized the clear threat and worked to neutralise it.

@Ronu: Question: so, as the senior member of your group, are you the one running the league?

That’s the situation I’m in. I may not be the best player in our group, but I’m in the top 2. Especially if I really set my heart on winning. Right now we have maybe 3-4 other players that are near my skill level, a bunch of players with middling skill, and a whole bunch of new players.

One thing I’ve done, since I run the league, is make myself ineligible for the regular league prizes. As league coordinator I already get enough free stuff for running the thing- both from FFG and the FLGS- that I don’t miss out on much. But by removing myself from the running it allows me to compete and have fun without it becoming a competition, if that makes sense. I still keep track of my league score and post it on the scoreboard so that others can see how they compare to me, but that’s it.

Two more suggestions:

first, show up to game night with 3 lists prepared in advance: a tier 1 list, a tier 2 list, and a “fun” list (something you’ll enjoy flying but will get torn apart in the current meta. For me it would be something like 4x A-wings). Then when you get ready to play someone ask them which one they want to face. That way it gives some control to the opponent, and if they choose your tier 1 list they go in knowing that they’ll probably lose but they’ll learn something in the process and get an idea of what they’ll see if they go to a big tournament.

Second, before each game, if your opponent is new, as if you can make a couple suggestions on their list. Most people happily say yes. Then give them some advice on how they could improve their list and let them make changes before your game begins.

After the game, again ask if you can make suggestions, and if they say yes then make suggestions on how they could have flown better.

Everyone I’ve done this for has been really grateful- they’re there to play x-Wing and have fun but they’re trying to learn and get better, too. So having a veteran player give them advice usually means something to them. And it shows that- even if despite all of the above you still curbstomped them- you care about their gaming experience and are trying to help them have a good time.

Fly Casual! (and I mean that in the original sense of the term. It used to mean just play and have fun and don’t be a jerk. Now “Casual” has almost become a bad word on these forums. It’s sad.)

1 hour ago, Eisai said:

There's a difference between this situation and doing demo games, which I'll usually do my best to lose while not looking completely incompetent. Had one demo game where, for the purpose of demonstrating how something worked, stepped back after a blanked-out defense roll by the person I was teaching and said, "Okay, let's pretend you rolled X instead."

16 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

After the game, again ask if you can make suggestions, and if they say yes then make suggestions on how they could have flown better.

Fly Casual!

Definitely +1 to all of this. Always make kind, non-patronizing suggestions after the game (if you sense that the person will be receptive).

Also, I will frequently see a player blank out and be like "what? I didn't see that. Go ahead and actually roll your dice." Or see them dial a thing off the board and be like "Go ahead and pick a different maneuver. I think you meant to do the 1-hard there."

Caveat: Sometimes a newbie actually wants to be treated like an equal. I was always like that. Be very careful not to patronize newer players if they don't want to be given second chances and "unfair" advantages.

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

Caveat: Sometimes a newbie actually wants to be treated like an equal. I was always like that. Be very careful not to patronize newer players if they don't want to be given second chances and "unfair" advantages.

+1 to this too. I've been involved in a few gaming groups, one of them garnered really quite a few new members over it's time. Our philosophy was to play for fun. People came along who wanted meta or only had a passing interest, we would welcome them all the same but there was nothing we could do to stop them drifting away. Nor would we want to. People who were generally interested and enjoyed our casual way, would stick around no matter what we did.

We did have guys who were really very good at the game and if it was ON, then it was very on. Then we would all learn things.

I think everyone with a genuine interest and a decent attitude appreciates these things, whether they're new and rubbish or old and good.

1 hour ago, Herowannabe said:

@Ronu: Question: so, as the senior member of your group, are you the one running the league?

@Herowannabe Nope. A friend runs the league, but he also runs Destiny and soon Legion. Also he not much for the tournament scene. I tend to be the more competitive of the few longer term players still in the game.

I am the longest-tenured member of my local X-Wing League, which means eventually I became in charge of it. We do a two-tiered system, where the "better" players play against each other each week and the "lesser" players play against each other each week. Basically, we do two separate 2-game tournaments each night and give out a prize to the winner of each group.

If you keep winning in the bottom division, you move up. If you keep losing in the top division, you move down. We are lucky enough to have 16-20 people every week, so we do a couple of 8-10 player tournaments and give out a ship to each winner.

Eventually, the players who want to and have the capacity will move up, and the people who are happy to fly casual jank will not have to deal with the serious meta week after week. The serious players don't want to play vs triple U-Wing, and the triple U-Wing player doesn't want to face the serious players, so it keeps everyone a little happier (except for that one guy who's too good for the bottom division and not good enough for the top division and just ping-pongs back and forth with alternating 2-0 and 0-2 records).

Happily, two of our serious players earned invites to Coruscant last month, so it seems to be working out.