Went to a regional today, and in a game I was loosing, the guy was slow playing (in my opinion) hoping to end the game that round. But he put two of his guys where I was able to kill them with auto-damage from command cards with someone that had no other hope to kill them. I took the lead and then he told me to hurry up, with like one minute left at the time, with still two activation left on his side and one on mine so we could play another round. Time was called with one activation left for him. He wasn't happy (but was a good player) and it ended up costing him top 8. So my question is this, should the clock be hidden so nobody can play the clock ? What's your thoughts on that ?

If you think you are being slowplayed, call a judge. If they hid the clock, players could just check their watches/phones or keep their own timer, so there's no way to make a that an enforceable/effective measure.

My last regionals I was down in round 3 of game 1, and my opponent was thinking through his activations with a few minutes left. I spoke up in a normal tone and just said something like, "Sorry to push you, but time could be a factor here." There were like 6 minutes left, but he said, "Right, of course," and moved into his activations. I don't think he was slow-playing me on purpose (he won the first activation of round 4).

Another help is to know "your opening" well so you can go through the first few activations pretty quickly -- usually the beginning of the game takes less thought than the mid-game and end-game (apart from certain errors like over-aggressive play).

I WILL say that in two of my games, I heard the 2-minute warnings and my opponents didn't. In one case, that resulted in a loss for the guy in an otherwise contestable game. The Regionals I went to in Omaha had a very visible clock that all players could easily see -- it would be nice to have one of those at every game, both for awareness and so you could point it out if an opponent is slow-playing.

I was nervous in one game and kept looking at the clock. Round ended after time was called and it was 36-35 in my favor, but then I realized that I was scoring 4 points at start of round because I was activating first (each of our Take Initiatives had been played) and Mission B on the Swamp meant 2 crates spawned 2 cases away from any of my guy would be in range of both.

Sometimes we worry for nothing. Sometimes people play slowly because they overthink a lot - not because they are playing the clock, but it DOES happen.

So far I've only had it done to me once in X-Wing when they tested 60 minutes rounds. That 15 minute difference is insane.

As @ThatJakeGuy said, hiding the clock would be impossible unless they gave us a random amount of time for the game, which is actually kind of intriguing, but would only matter in a few cases. For now, as soon as I hear that we can begin, I set my watch. I once remember activating Leia for nothing just to get to the next round. Hate if you want, but these tournaments have a specific format and unfortunately it's just part of the game.

We've all been saved and burned by the time limit, it just happens. As for stalling or slow playing(legal stalling), a TO told me to call them over and they'd watch the game closely.

Hiding the clock just wouldn't work.

If I start to feel the opponent is playing too slow after a few prodding comments, I'll constantly ask the judge how much time is left to make sure I'm not going to get clocked out unexpectedly.

At Worlds last year, I had to get a judge involved in one game. The game was fine until near the end, when the opponent was seemingly trying to run the clock out with around 5 minutes left when they only had a single activation left and every move except for blocking for his only other figure would lose the game immediately (as i had a whole group left to go). The judge tried to let him make his move, but he wouldn't do it, so eventually the judge had to say we were getting another round so the player would finish their move.

23 hours ago, DTDanix said:

At Worlds last year, I had to get a judge involved in one game. The game was fine until near the end, when the opponent was seemingly trying to run the clock out with around 5 minutes left when they only had a single activation left and every move except for blocking for his only other figure would lose the game immediately (as i had a whole group left to go). The judge tried to let him make his move, but he wouldn't do it, so eventually the judge had to say we were getting another round so the player would finish their move.

I wasn't trying to run the clock out, I think the stress of the situation just made me freeze up. I also had no idea how much time was left, petty sure the clock had already passed the 65 minute mark by the time it got around to that situation. Either way at that point it would have been better for the judges to just let us know there was going to be another round as that did affect what my best move was.

I also asked the judges several times, "is there gonna be another round or not?" because we were right at time and they flat out refused to give an answer for the longest time. I did not want to make a move with the status of the next round a complete mystery.

All that said im not a fan of games being decided by time, especially at that level

58 minutes ago, brettpkelly said:

I wasn't trying to run the clock out, I think the stress of the situation just made me freeze up. I also had no idea how much time was left, petty sure the clock had already passed the 65 minute mark by the time it got around to that situation. Either way at that point it would have been better for the judges to just let us know there was going to be another round as that did affect what my best move was.

I also asked the judges several times, "is there gonna be another round or not?" because we were right at time and they flat out refused to give an answer for the longest time. I did not want to make a move with the status of the next round a complete mystery.

All that said im not a fan of games being decided by time, especially at that level

I wasn't trying to call you out, which is why I left your name out and also indicated that from my perspective it looked like my opponent might be stalling.

My main point is that regardless of the intentions of the other player, calling the judge over is the correct thing to do. We were basically in a situation where if you played your move we would have plenty of time to start the next round, and if you kept counting spaces, talking, and asking questions, we wouldn't get another round. Since I had no way of knowing that you're actually going to move, I had to call the judge.

19 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

I wasn't trying to call you out, which is why I left your name out and also indicated that from my perspective it looked like my opponent might be stalling.

My main point is that regardless of the intentions of the other player, calling the judge over is the correct thing to do. We were basically in a situation where if you played your move we would have plenty of time to start the next round, and if you kept counting spaces, talking, and asking questions, we wouldn't get another round. Since I had no way of knowing that you're actually going to move, I had to call the judge.

Sorry you just hit a sore spot for me.

I'm all about having a time clock posted so everyone can see the amount of time left. Or perhaps go to a chess clock style when once you've expended your time allotment no more moves for you.

We had a player in our local meta we nicknamed "slowplay". He insisted that he was nervous and overthinking. I often have issues like this, but I will apologize to my opponent and explain that I have a tough decision to make and will make it soon. For example, I had never played against Uggs until this past weekend, and I legit had no idea what to do at one point. My opponent was super patient (although I'm sure time is on his side...LOL), but I can understand how a player feels like one move is going to dictate the whole game. In saying that, we solved "slowplay" by asking the judge to intervene. The judge watched for a bit and did agree that he was slow playing and would have to enforce a time rule. It sounds a bit unfair, but I'm not sure what else the judge can do?

Slow playing is definitely a problem in this game. I've been eliminated from a regional by a player who was definitely playing the clock and taking extra time with his moves. He just... slowed down with 2 or 3 activations left at the end of the game, so that we wouldn't get another turn. Nothing I could do, since by the time I realized he was willing to cheat like that, we'd already passed the point of no return.

My rule of thumb is: if you aren't getting 4 turns in a game, then one side was probably playing too slowly. If you consistently aren't getting 4 turns in a game, then you are the problem. It doesn't matter if it's intentional or not: play faster.

If you know a player plays too slowly, tell him. He's hurting everyone by being too slow. If you play him in a competitive setting, tell him you will not tolerate slow play and call the judge the first time he slows down. Be a jerk, because someone has to at some point to this guy or nothing will change.

@NeverBetTheFett

"Slowplay" was the worst for that. He disappeared coincidentally right around the time the scoring rules changed so his points denial game of alleged analysis paralysis wasn't a valid move anymore.

@pheaver

That's super lame that it cost you the match. I'm assuming by eliminated you meant in a top cut. You're right about the 4 rounds. If we're going to time, I'd say we played a fairly paced game if it's called mid-way/early through round 4.

I get that there's the meta game of manipulating time but you really don't have a lot of options here to run out the clock without actually just full-on refusing to act. It's not like X-Wing where you can run out 10 minutes at the end of a match by taking your faster more agile ships and bugging out to sit on your lead. You could call it lame or dishonourable but at least THAT player is giving you the opportunity to attempt to deal with it.

The tournament document calls this out and mentions that at a premier level event that there is an onus on you to be familiar and competent with the rules. I think it's fair to say we've all had some tough calls to make, but I find that usually they're front loaded into Round 1 as we all do the dance of jockeying for position as conservatively as possible so we don't have someone get zapped too early.

I find by Round 3 especially, it's all pretty well laid out for you and it's a matter of acting and rolling.

4 minutes ago, cleardave said:

I get that there's the meta game of manipulating time but you really don't have a lot of options here to run out the clock without actually just full-on refusing to act. It's not like X-Wing where you can run out 10 minutes at the end of a match by taking your faster more agile ships and bugging out to sit on your lead. You could call it lame or dishonourable but at least THAT player is giving you the opportunity to attempt to deal with it.

Reminds me of the time a well known X-player in our community shook his dice for about a 30 seconds (at least) to kill the clock. He only had one ship left which only had one target! And he was the last ship to act! LOL

I finally said, "are you going to roll those dice?". He claimed he thought he heard the TO say this was last round. Everyone who witnessed it agreed he was slow playing on purpose. It definitely cost me the game. He would have been dead next round. We could not get dials down in time, and of course with no help from him and his one ship.

Slow playing is a problem yes, and it sucks that it often occurs at competitive tournaments. However I think it's probably a bit harsh to say that if you're not consistently getting 4 turns per game then you are the problem. How much time is "reasonable" to spend on your turn is IMO at least partially dependent on the kind of list you're playing. I wouldn't want to discourage players that want to play a cat and mouse type list that requires a lot of finesse. That kind of list naturally needs a little more thinking time because it's not going to win on brute force. I think 4 rounds is a good target, but I wouldn't begrudge a player if time was called towards the end of the 3rd round, so long as I didn't see a drastic difference in their turn length as the clock was winding down.

5 hours ago, Spiderbee said:

I'm all about having a time clock posted so everyone can see the amount of time left. Or perhaps go to a chess clock style when once you've expended your time allotment no more moves for you.

I would love to have a chess clock for this game. Each player gets 30 minutes on the clock. Maybe some extra time per move after you run out.

I'm with @pheaver, I was knocked out of Top 16 at Worlds 2016 by what I'm pretty sure was slow play (and some crazy dice luck, but another round would have sealed the game in my favor). Unfortunately I didn't really catch it at the time because it was 10:30pm after a full day of playing. Oh, what might have been...

Moral the story: don't be afraid to call people out or to call the judge.

Yeah, when in doubt calling the judge is the best option. A chess clock would also be awesome since it's the most fair way to allot equal time to both players, but I doubt it'll happen since it requires you to procure a bunch of chess clocks for tournaments. I just don't want players who are consistent with their turn lengths and playing in good faith to be punished/reprimanded just because they take 5 extra seconds per activation compared to others. I think it's reasonable to expect that a game will last at least 3 rounds, often 4, and occasionally 5.

As for dealing with legitimate cheaters, perhaps another option would be to change the tournament rules to slightly shorten the game timer, but stipulate that when time is called, you finish the current round and then play one more round. Since the end of the game is farther away, it's a lot harder for cheaters to gauge how to benefit from playing the clock, but gameplay is otherwise basically unaffected.

6 minutes ago, turkishvancat said:

Yeah, when in doubt calling the judge is the best option. A chess clock would also be awesome since it's the most fair way to allot equal time to both players, but I doubt it'll happen since it requires you to procure a bunch of chess clocks for tournaments. I just don't want players who are consistent with their turn lengths and playing in good faith to be punished/reprimanded just because they take 5 extra seconds per activation compared to others. I think it's reasonable to expect that a game will last at least 3 rounds, often 4, and occasionally 5.

As for dealing with legitimate cheaters, perhaps another option would be to change the tournament rules to slightly shorten the game timer, but stipulate that when time is called, you finish the current round and then play one more round. Since the end of the game is farther away, it's a lot harder for cheaters to gauge how to benefit from playing the clock, but gameplay is otherwise basically unaffected.

I agree it probably won't happen, but I've heard this isn't a problem for Warhammer and other miniatures games.

The problem with letting people play a whole untimed round is you might end up waiting forever for these games to finish.

31 minutes ago, DTDanix said:

The problem with letting people play a whole untimed round is you might end up waiting forever for these games to finish.

The trick would be to find out how much to decrease the round timer so that the total round duration (including the period after time is called) is about the same as before. The timer might just be 50 minutes instead of 65, but it would be understood that the longest game would finish maybe 20-25 minutes later.

I almost never reach a 4th round in tournaments. I would consider myself a slow player but throughout the whole game not just at the end.

Only been to one high level event for IA (a regional) but found that I've never had this issue since my games always went to completion before time. It's probably because I'm a super aggressive player who brings super aggressive lists and am rather impatient when it comes to getting into the action.