When using Apollos CAG ability or the ability on command, can you activate the same viper multiple times?

In the rules it says a ship may be activated multiple time within a turn, yet those actions state 'activate 2 unmanned vipers' or 'activate 6 unmanned vipers'. We took the rulebook ruling to mean that you could activate a ship more than once in a turn, but not necessarily on the same action (for example, if someone used Executive Order to allow you to use command twice, you could activate 2 vipers, twice each.

The other way of reading this is that each ship can be activated multiple times with the same action. Though it seems a little ridiculous for Apollo to be able to activate one ship, have it fly 3 spaces then attack 3 times.

What are your thoughts?

You get 6 activations and you can do with them whatever you want.

I think Apollo's special action is meant for desparate situations. Our game last night had a ton Cylon ships everywhere. Civilian ships were spread out across battle spaces. We had 4 damaged Vipers, 1 in the air, and the rest destroyed. It seems to me Apollo's ability was intended for just such an occaision. Unfortunately no one was playing Apollo.

Mike said:

Is this written somewhere, or is it your interpretation? I read Apollo's ability as requiring you to spread your activations around. This makes sense gramatically ("you may activate up to 6 unmanned vipers") and thematically (the CAG leads an army of lesser pilots to war). Both Apollo's CAG ability and the Command location are meant to approximate one person leading multiple vipers, not one person creating a Super-Starbuck with the peptalk-to-end-all-peptalks :-P

UhOh said:

Well, no. Think of who Apollo is: He's the captain of Galactica's viper squadron. If there was only one viable viper left on Galactica, what kind of squadron is Apollo able to lead? They'd put Starbuck into it, for sure.

Thinking back to the show, Apollo's special ability is clearly meant to represent all those times Apollo led a bunch of vipers on some risky mission (i.e. Hand of God; destroying the Resurrection Ship; etc.) Apollo is the team player. Starbuck is the solo pilot.

I'd have to hunt it down (and it may have been on the old boards), but it's been clearly stated that the Command location is 2 activations, which can be two seperate Vipers, or the same Viper twice. Given the similarity in wording, I'd apply the same interpretation to Apollo's ability.

He's the CAG: it's his job to order pilots. If he tells the only pilot left in the air to get his bird across Galactica and kill everything it sees, well then, they'd better do that.

James

The wording in Command and Lee's ability is almost the same. It has been clarified, that Command can activate the same Viper twice. Thus, Lee must be able to activate the same Viper six times, if he wants to.

What? Really? But... that doesn't really make much sense, at least to me. I'd definitely appreciate a pointer to where it was officially said (it's not in the FAQ). Was Command always intended to work this way? Is there some overriding mechanical concern, maybe that requiring two different vipers is too frustrating to play with?

I just started rewatching the series, and from the pilot episode on, Apollo is all about leading lots of vipers in a squadron. That's what the CAG ("Commander Air Group ") does. I can't imagine his ability wasn't intended to let him take command of the entire viper squadron for a turn.

Eunomiac said:

He can. He just has other options as well.

Brine said:

I understand that. But do those "other options" include talking a nameless rookie into becoming a one man super-squadron?

Though I intend to house rule it after a few tests, I understand why Starbuck's "Expert Pilot" ability can be used to draw four Politics cards from two Press Conferences: Though it makes no sense thematically, there just wasn't a way to elegantly limit it without introducing new rules and terms to the game (e.g. "viper actions" or whatever).

I suppose I also understand why the Command location allows for two activations of the same viper: All that extra attention and careful instruction might improve a rookie pilot's efficiency so that he could get an extra thing done.

But five extra things? In the same amount of time? That's just absurd.

Imagine this were a football board game. Apollo is like the quarterback. He has the "ability" to give an order to each of the players on his team (e.g. "advance 10 yards") . This makes sense to me: It captures the idea of a captain without conferring magical powers upon his team. Is it reasonable to infer that such a quarterback could order one player to advance 100 yards? Of course not. How can one player even move that quickly? And even if he could, why does it take a pep-talk from the quarterback to unleash his inner roadrunner? None of this makes any sense at all.

I'll be the first to admit that Apollo's got some gravitas, but no amount of gravitas can sextuple a viper's horsepower over a comm link. I call shenanigans

I'm actually somewhat surprised that no one seems to be agreeing with me. Does anyone else think this simply cannot be what the designers intended? I hate being clueless, but maybe I'm just not getting something...

I think you should see the distance between game mechanics and playability on the one side and the thematical background on the other side.

Last game I tried to brig someone already in the Brig. While that does make no thematical sense, it allowed us to deplete the destiny deck, improving our chances for the next skill check.

Eunomiac said:

I agrea it makes absolutley no sense if you look at it thematicaly. But from a game mechanics standpoint... I don't know. I'll just go with the ruling we allready have for the Command location, that has the same problem though on a smaller scale, and allowe the super viper of DooM.

The closest reference I found is on page 25 of the rulebook:

'Each viper may be activated any number of times during a player’s turn'

Which seems to imply that you can activate a ship multiple times, however the wording on both the command section and Apollo's card does seem to imply you have to activate seperate ships and we assumed that the clarification I referenced above meant if you found a way to do multiple activations you could.

That said, I'm not certain how you would word it differently to not create that confusion. I don't have a big problem with command ordering once ship to take two actions since that allows a 'move and attack' option, but with Apollo's ability it does seem a little silly to have one ship take all the risk of flying into the heart of the Cylon fleet and blatting away - from a themeatic standpoint anyway

Mike said:

I agree, at least in principle: I'm not some jilted fan-boy who insists that every aspect of the game align perfectly with theme

However, to me at least, this interpretation of Apollo's rules should earn cock-eyed looks even from those players who know nothing of the show: It just doesn't make any sense, no matter how you slice it! Moreover, it needlessly dilutes Apollo's team captain "niche" while invading Starbuck's purview of star pilot/rookie instructor. I'd be okay with all of this if I thought this is what the designers intended, but what evidence have we of that? Especially since it goes against a plain reading of Apollo's ability? Naw, I'm ready to bet good money that Apollo was intended to take command of six different vipers.

Anywho, sorry to keep rambling on about this, but I've never been able to pass up a good debate Any chance of getting a developer in here to weigh in with an answer? In the event that I'm wrong, I have only one follow-up question: Was Apollo always intended to operate this way, or was it a concession to mechanics or rules consistency?

Thanks for all your patience with me

Destrin said:

Yes. This means that you can activate the same ship multiple times. This includes Apollo's ability and the Command location.

Thanks Corey! I suppose I'll have to assuage my concerns via a house rule. Ugh, I hate house rules...

Why fix a working system? There's a reason for the rule.

Because, insofar as I include thematic coherency in the "system," it isn't working for me. And I know it won't work for the people I play with either, who will all be scratching their heads over how a viper can move six squares at the sound of Apollo's voice. That said, I'd love to hear the reason for this rule as-written. That's why I started the other thread, to ask about this house rule, in case someone knows why it is the way it is. Of course I don't want to break the game for thematic reasons, but I can't see how restricting a once-per-game ability in this way could ever do that (particularly on a character as strong as Apollo).

Mike said:

Agreed. Besides, the humans already need as much help as they can get.

Thanks for the clarification Corey!