Everything I've read, and some I've seen firsthand, the TIE Swarm is not faring as well as it could. Something I've thought about is this custom title (and corresponding Condition)

Imperial Swarm Doctrine

Imperial and TIE only; Title

At the start of combat, choose an enemy that two of your ships with this title have in arc. You may assign that enemy the • There’s.. too many of them! Condition.

•There’s.. too many of them!

For every enemy with the overwhelming Swarm title that has you in arc, reduce your agility by 1 (to a minimum of zero)

The reason I did this as a title is I do want it to work well with both Swarm Leader and Swamr Tactics. Plus, anyship that already has a title will probably want to equip that ships specific title instead.

I'm just gonna keep repeating myself.

I've been playing this game for over 2 years, and 90% of the games I have played have been TIE Swarm.

The swarm isn't an easy list to win with, in fact it's usually hard. but the TIE fighter as an individual ship is very effiecent, and if you use howlrunner and Blockers effectively, you can take down almost anything. If TIE fighters were buffed in any way, I think it would be disasterous. I encourage you to keep flying TIE swarm though!

5 minutes ago, Sir Orrin said:

I'm just gonna keep repeating myself.

I've been playing this game for over 2 years, and 90% of the games I have played have been TIE Swarm.

The swarm isn't an easy list to win with, in fact it's usually hard. but the TIE fighter as an individual ship is very effiecent, and if you use howlrunner and Blockers effectively, you can take down almost anything. If TIE fighters were buffed in any way, I think it would be disasterous. I encourage you to keep flying TIE swarm though!

Yeah keep TIE swarms hard to fly so noobs can’t use them. Serves them right, all those net-listing a-holes.

As we've seen with Blair Bunke's recent Top 8 finish, Swarms could be doing well. To be fair, he's a really good player (from what I hear), and Z-95's aren't Imperial, but he inspired me to start looking at Swarmy stuff. I've been fielding these in practice.

TIE Bomber (Unguided Rockets LWF) (x5)

TIE Striker (AA, LWF) (x5)

They have enough punch to tear the Ghost apart in 2 or 3 rounds, Fenn can only hinder one at a time. Strikers do well at close range, Bombers at 2-3. LWF on both does a lot of work. You can take out Ghost+Fenn pretty quickly, faster if you can take out Fenn first.

Don't match this with Trip Defenders though. You will die very fast. They don't even have to try to get out of arc.

10 minutes ago, Praetorate of the Empire said:

TIE Bomber (Unguided Rockets LWF) (x5)

TIE Striker (AA, LWF) (x5)

I believe @Parakitor has flown 5 Striker lists to good effect. The Bombers though... it’s just too easy to lose that focus for Unguided Rockets although I’ve only flown a pair in that configuration a few times. I’ve been pondering 5 TIE/FOs with Advanced Optics and Crack Shot but I’m too busy having fun with my SFs and Silencer to try it!

Scum has a pretty decent ps1 swarm.

4 x Z95 with tracers and chips

2 x Quadjumpers with tractor array and Intel agent

1 x Light Scyk (Sunny Bounder)

It can block at ps1.

Most ships will have focus and target lock each turn.

Sunny with double mods reliably gets three hits.

And if the Quadjumpers can cause other ships to bump or hit asteroids/debris fields as well as lowering agility so the other 6 ships can get easier shots.

And as swarms go you have some nice variety of ship.

I played it twice vs Kylo and rho boats and stomped them. Kylo with 1 agility ain't all that

13 minutes ago, Sasajak said:

I believe @Parakitor has flown 5 Striker lists to good effect.

Yeah, I've had good success with a TIE striker swarm. Not great, but good enough that I think it's a valid list archetype. Their dial is fantastically open, making it difficult for your opponent to predict where they're going, and the extra hull they have over TIE fighters makes a world of difference. To put it in perspective, an 8 TIE fighter swarm has 24 hull and rolls 16 attack dice; the 5 TIE striker swarm has 20 hull and rolls 15 attack dice. So they are quite comparable, except that strikers LOVE asteroid fields. TIE fighters...not so much. That maneuverability is worth it. Not to mention the fact that their attack dice are clustered in 3's so you can more reliably hit high-agility targets.

Sadly, I had to sit out this Regional season, so I haven't been able to test myself, but I did get 10th out of 48 in one of my Store Championships last year. Although, I only got 4W-4L in the Vassal League with 4 TIE Strikers + Doom Shuttle/Star Wing. But I don't think the list lost me those games. When you field a contingent of TIE strikers, you really feel like you can fight anything. I think somebody with more time to play than I have could do amazing things with them.

Well swarms right now are not doing much. Funny thing is while the Imperials were the start of the swarm they are stuck with only one 12-14 point ship. Rebels have their own TIE-fighter now so throwing one or 2 with 6 Z-95 Headhunters is not beyond them, Scum have 2 options for a 12 point ship, the Z-95 Headhunter also, and the Light Scyk title. So they can mix and match an 8 ship swarm easily.

So the question is what 14 point ship should Imperilas have (if you asked me the TIE Bomber should have been 14 points ).

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

Yeah keep TIE swarms hard to fly so noobs can’t use them. Serves them right, all those net-listing a-holes.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I started playing way back before even the first Kessel Run events. The early waves of X-Wing were not as golden and happy as we'd like to believe. Pretty much without exception, every Imperial player was flying a 7-Tie Howl Swarm or a full on 8 TIE Swarm (Howl swarm was the more popular and generally more successful choice). There was very little that Rebel fighters could do compete with the jousting efficiency of a Howl-Swarm, and Swarm games took a long time . Very often games went to time, especially in the case of Swarm vs Swarm mirror matches. The community was begging for answers to Swarms, and cards like Predator and the TIE Phantom were received with cheers of applause as something that might be able to stave off the swarm menace. People were constantly complaining that Unique Pilots (aside from Biggs and Howl) and upgrades were so rarely worth taking. Seriously, it's hard to believe now, but back in the early Swarm-Dominated days of X-Wing, people complained that naked generic ships were always better than unique ships or ships with upgrades.

So, I mean, I like the thematicness of a TIE Swarm and I'd like TIE Fighters to be more commonly fielded in X-Wing. That being said, I'm conflicted because I really don't miss the early days of Howl-Swarm vs Howl-Swarm X-Wing, like not even a little bit.

I don’t know the ghost list that is dominating, but it seems like a tie swarm would eat through a ghost like nothing. If one gets a block then that is 6-7 (if a tie comes off the board) reigning 2-3 shots on a 0-agility ship with 16 health. I’m probably way oversimplifying the scenario, but it seems like the swarm would do well there.

I need to get some more games in. I really want to play a swarm. Formation flying is cool.

23 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I started playing way back before even the first Kessel Run events. The early waves of X-Wing were not as golden and happy as we'd like to believe. Pretty much without exception, every Imperial player was flying a 7-Tie Howl Swarm or a full on 8 TIE Swarm (Howl swarm was the more popular and generally more successful choice). There was very little that Rebel fighters could do compete with the jousting efficiency of a Howl-Swarm, and Swarm games took a long time . Very often games went to time, especially in the case of Swarm vs Swarm mirror matches. The community was begging for answers to Swarms, and cards like Predator and the TIE Phantom were received with cheers of applause as something that might be able to stave off the swarm menace. People were constantly complaining that Unique Pilots (aside from Biggs and Howl) and upgrades were so rarely worth taking. Seriously, it's hard to believe now, but back in the early Swarm-Dominated days of X-Wing, people complained that naked generic ships were always better than unique ships or ships with upgrades.

So, I mean, I like the thematicness of a TIE Swarm and I'd like TIE Fighters to be more commonly fielded in X-Wing. That being said, I'm conflicted because I really don't miss the early days of Howl-Swarm vs Howl-Swarm X-Wing, like not even a little bit.

So true! I’m glad I’m not the only one who still remembers this. I remember when the mindset was... (EDIT: I think the phrase was “plastic is better than cardboard,” meaning more ships on the table are better than more cards”). Fielding higher PS ships was generally a waste of points and point fortresses were unheard of until Phantoms came along (the Phantoms chased away the swarms and made room for Fat Han to come in and reign for the next few waves).

I readily admit that we have seen some toxic things lately, such as Nymiranda and FennGhost, but at least we have options now!!!

Back in the day it was a bunch of generics or lose, then for a while it was fly fat Han or lose (or fly Phantoms and crush everything that wasn’t Fat Han). Since then... well since then we’ve seen a variety of fat turrets take their turn in the limelight (and yes I include Miranda and Nym in that), but at least there’s been a little variety to it instead of just one thing over and over.

2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

•There’s.. too many of them!

For every enemy with the overwhelming Swarm title that has you in arc, reduce your agility by 1 (to a minimum of zero)

I like the idea, and I've played with it a little bit. I think it has a couple issues, however:

Some ships live and die by their agility. Reducing a squint down to 0 or 1 agility is... not awesome. And Phantoms... I mean. We haven't seen them for a while, but this card would keep them off the tables.

Instead, I might do something a bit more complicated where instead of modifying dice, you have to instead discard that condition. So if the defender has 4 dice mods (say: Palpatine, Focus, evade, and autothrusters), and 3 of those conditions, every dice mod the defender tried would first get eaten by that condition. This would also make them less overwhelming to ships that have 1 or 2 agility- B-Wings should have _some_ chance against TIEs!

43 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I started playing way back before even the first Kessel Run events. The early waves of X-Wing were not as golden and happy as we'd like to believe. Pretty much without exception, every Imperial player was flying a 7-Tie Howl Swarm or a full on 8 TIE Swarm (Howl swarm was the more popular and generally more successful choice). There was very little that Rebel fighters could do compete with the jousting efficiency of a Howl-Swarm, and Swarm games took a long time . Very often games went to time, especially in the case of Swarm vs Swarm mirror matches. The community was begging for answers to Swarms, and cards like Predator and the TIE Phantom were received with cheers of applause as something that might be able to stave off the swarm menace. People were constantly complaining that Unique Pilots (aside from Biggs and Howl) and upgrades were so rarely worth taking. Seriously, it's hard to believe now, but back in the early Swarm-Dominated days of X-Wing, people complained that naked generic ships were always better than unique ships or ships with upgrades.

So, I mean, I like the thematicness of a TIE Swarm and I'd like TIE Fighters to be more commonly fielded in X-Wing. That being said, I'm conflicted because I really don't miss the early days of Howl-Swarm vs Howl-Swarm X-Wing, like not even a little bit.

I remember those days! And I think you're pretty spot-on with your analysis. However!

Part of the problem we're now seeing is that 2 dice attacks are barely worth making. Accuracy corrector on a low PS TIE Advanced should be _worth doing_. And it's simply not.

The other thing is that having a bunch of ships on the table is _fun_. I play pretty casually, but I don't like to bring a list I think is going to tank. I want to be able to bring- say- a 6 ship list and feel like the list itself is good against any comers (I might not be able to play it well, obviously!). Right now I don't think that option really exists. That's a problem.

27 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I like the idea, and I've played with it a little bit. I think it has a couple issues, however:

Some ships live and die by their agility. Reducing a squint down to 0 or 1 agility is... not awesome. And Phantoms... I mean. We haven't seen them for a while, but this card would keep them off the tables.

Instead, I might do something a bit more complicated where instead of modifying dice, you have to instead discard that condition. So if the defender has 4 dice mods (say: Palpatine, Focus, evade, and autothrusters), and 3 of those conditions, every dice mod the defender tried would first get eaten by that condition. This would also make them less overwhelming to ships that have 1 or 2 agility- B-Wings should have _some_ chance against TIEs!

Fair point. I hadn't worked out the point value for this title, but, I figured it should be around the 4 point area , so with at least two ships having to have it, there is 8 points. That balances it out somewhat. Outmaneuver and intimidation are 3 and 2 points and have their own stipulations.

However, it may be an idea to try this:

•There’s.. Too Many of Them!

When assigned this card, place a number of weapons disabled tokens on it equal to the number Ships equipped with the Imperial Swam Doctrine title.

When a ship with that title declares you as a target, you can either reduce your agility by the amount of weapons disabled tokens on this card, or, you may suffer one damage and assign a weapons disabled token to that ship.

If a ship with the title is destroyed, remove a weapons disabled token from this card.

The Imperial Swarm Doctrine would assign the condition at the beginning of the game.

no.

3 hours ago, Marinealver said:

1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Fair point. I hadn't worked out the point value for this title, but, I figured it should be around the 4 point area , so with at least two ships having to have it, there is 8 points. That balances it out somewhat. Outmaneuver and intimidation are 3 and 2 points and have their own stipulations.

However, it may be an idea to try this:

•There’s.. Too Many of Them!

When assigned this card, place a number of weapons disabled tokens on it equal to the number Ships equipped with the Imperial Swam Doctrine title.

When a ship with that title declares you as a target, you can either reduce your agility by the amount of weapons disabled tokens on this card, or, you may suffer one damage and assign a weapons disabled token to that ship.

If a ship with the title is destroyed, remove a weapons disabled token from this card.

The Imperial Swarm Doctrine would assign the condition at the beginning of the game.

These ideas seem far too strong, even at four points and makes this ships targets.

Now a 12 point ship get an auto damage or gets to shoot at a ship with one less agility. Swarms would be devastating.

I though before of a zero cost title which allowed ships as an action to take a weapons disabled token to assign a 'Distracting Fire' token to an enemy within range two. Giving the target -1 defense dice.

This way swarms can function cooperatively, with high numbers of ships. It rewards good flying and planning.

2 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

I'm conflicted because I really don't miss the early days of Howl-Swarm vs Howl-Swarm X-Wing, like not even a little bit.

Well, I think we should still all fear the swarm! 8 vs 8 ships for 7 games straight! Make you work for those championships!

but yeah I remember those days. Not as much as the ‘professionals’ since I’ve always been casual, but yeah everyone was groaning about throwing tons of dice and how Aces were a waste. How times have changed.

@GrimmyV forgive my semi-coherent ramblings. I’ve been sick all week long- I blame it on that.

I think the point I was trying to make is that it’s ironic- it seems like people are complaining about all the same things they complained about 4-5 years ago, except instead of complaining because they are OP/garbage, now they complain because they are garbage/OP (respectfully).

True for:

Swarms

bombs

Ordnance

Aces

point piñatas/fortresses

Arc dodgers

Jousters

3 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

I think the point I was trying to make is that it’s ironic- it seems like people are complaining about all the same things they complained about 4-5 years ago, except instead of complaining because they are OP/garbage, now they complain because they are garbage/OP (respectfully).

1 minute ago, GrimmyV said:

Exactly!

I'd like TIE swarms to work better, but I don't want to see lots of TIEs on the table at once. What I'd like to see is a title (or whatever) that replenishes your TIE fighters after they're destroyed -- 2 TIEs destroyed, get 1 non-unique TIE back as a reinforcement, placed anywhere further than Range 3 of an enemy ship. This way you end up having a total of 9 or 10 TIEs in a single match, but you're never flying more than 5 or 6 at a time. The goal for me would be to have less of a furball blockfest, less time spent each round setting dials and activating and all that, but a constant sense of being surrounded by cannon fodder.

. .

double post

I was also contemplating this conundrum just the other day...

... was pondering on a "swarm" title that allowed you to share damage around the swarm - basically turning the swarm into big multi-attack blob of health.

Costed at at least 3pts would cap squad size to 6.

I'm sure an R1 restriction would keep it in check given the volume of efficient AoE attacks/damage available - but an "if not stressed" restriction could further constrain it if necessary.

8 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Imperial Swarm Doctrine

Imperial and TIE only; Title

At the start of combat, choose an enemy that two of your ships with this title have in arc. You may assign that enemy the • There’s.. too many of them! Condition.

•There’s.. too many of them!

For every enemy with the overwhelming Swarm title that has you in arc, reduce your agility by 1 (to a minimum of zero)

No offense, but this is cumbersome as fudge.

This game is getting a little too Condition happy, IMHO.

This:

fixes TIE swarms and any other generic ship you might want to finally get into the game.