21 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Imp/Palp Aces could be beaten by a number of strategies, like blocking, control (stress, ion), killing the shuttle quickly with focus fire, etc. it’s not a cake walk but it’s doable.

Uhhh. Alpha strikes are legit strategies, the ultimate expression of jousting, one of the fundamental strategies from wave one!

And I thought winning was the objective??? Having fun playing is not something that must be sacrificed either. But I guess it’s actually otherwise.

disagree entirely.

alpha striking is NPE. youhave innitiative, you win before your opponent has a chance to play.

its poor sportsmanship, and disgustingly toxic behavior in a board game we play for fun

31 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Correct. Just harpoons and lrs on the gunboats.

Nice, that leaves enough points for Expertise on Quickdraw, and a 1 pt initiative bid.

Well that's my next Imperial list sorted >:)

1 hour ago, jimmius said:

So what's the 3xNuQD list that's doing the rounds? I always seem to be 1 point over. Are the Gunboats not running the ordnance title?

Yeah, I think it's just harpoons and long range scanners. Cheap at 22 points.

Edit. 'ed

27 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

disagree entirely.

alpha striking is NPE. youhave innitiative, you win before your opponent has a chance to play.

its poor sportsmanship, and disgustingly toxic behavior in a board game we play for fun

Oh no, if only there were a way to avoid the alpha strike of PS 2 generic ships that can't reposition and shoot in the same turn. There is also no counterplay whatsoever against high PS missile lists, or missile carrying Zs, or triple scurrgs. Alas, you're right, there's literally no solution and alpha strike lists all win before an opponent can even play and are therefore the top meta lists in the game. All top cuts at all major events recently are entirely full of unbeatable alphas, quite unsporting of them.

Sorry, hard to take seriously that a strategy of alpha strikes is somehow poor sportsmanship and toxic. Not unavoidable high PS bombs, or regen, or point fortresses, or PS 11 repositioning from a ghost. Nope, it's Alpha Strikes.

53 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Correct. Just harpoons and lrs on the gunboats.

See, GUNBOAT is so awesome and versatile that SHE has good builds that don’t even use HER awesome titles. Beautiful. I fall in love all over again each time I look at my quintet of GUNBOATS.

4 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

See, GUNBOAT is so awesome and versatile that SHE has good builds that don’t even use HER awesome titles. Beautiful. I fall in love all over again each time I look at my quintet of GUNBOATS.

Quintet? You can field 12 of them in epic with harpoons and LRS and still have points left over!!

Edit: 12 with harpoon, LRS, cannon title, and flechette canon can fit in a list. Just need a bunch of scyks, imperial vets, and guns for hire to have all the cards!!

10 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

PS 11 repositioning from a ghost.

How the FAQ did this happen? A 16 hp ship without EPTs suddenly gets full mods, multiple shots each round AND reposition at VI axe level. And damage mitigation on a ZERO agi frame?

FFG, I love you for GUNBOAT but you make some monsters without even trying

1 minute ago, mdl0114 said:

Quintet? You can field 12 of them in epic with harpoons and LRS and still have points left over!!

Nope, read the new FAQ, only 8 of each ship is allowed...:(

1 minute ago, GrimmyV said:

Nope, read the new FAQ, only 8 of each ship is allowed...:(

Ok, crap, nevermind.

4 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Nope, read the new FAQ, only 8 of each ship is allowed...:(

Ok, 8 of them with ion cannon, flechette cannon, extra munitions, cannon title, harpoon missiles, long range scanners and then 60 points for 5 academy pilot TIEs, 13 ships, shouldn't take more than 15 minutes a turn to move not-counting SLAM thinking time!

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

disagree entirely.

alpha striking is NPE. youhave innitiative, you win before your opponent has a chance to play.

its poor sportsmanship, and disgustingly toxic behavior in a board game we play for fun

See I think that reactionary attitude is far more of an NPE than any list I've ever faced.

It's poor sportsmanship and toxic behavior (not disgustingly, that's too far for me) in a game in which we play for fun.

When I see an alpha strike list, or any scary list for that matter, I don't think that's a reflection on who the player is. They aren't a bad sportsman for bringing a legal list. Wanting to win isn't a negative personality trait.

Making a scene at the table is . If you can't or don't beat the list, lose with grace, shake your opponent's hand, and then light the forums up like the 4th of July if it makes you feel better. Some lists deserve to get nerfed and FFG deserves to hear about them. But projecting your hatred for a list or archetype onto a stranger because they happened to take a list that a you hate and randomly got paired with you is poor form.

It's not their fault the list exists, and it's not their problem you don't like it. It's FFG's problem for creating it, and your distaste is your issue.

And FWIW, I don't take meta cookie cutter lists either, because I don't like to. But I have no illusions that it gives me some moral high ground. I've just come to terms with the fact that I'd prefer to go 4-2 with lists I enjoy than to try to do better with lists I don't.

2 hours ago, mdl0114 said:

Oh no, if only there were a way to avoid the alpha strike of PS 2 generic ships that can't reposition and shoot in the same turn. There is also no counterplay whatsoever against high PS missile lists, or missile carrying Zs, or triple scurrgs. Alas, you're right, there's literally no solution and alpha strike lists all win before an opponent can even play and are therefore the top meta lists in the game. All top cuts at all major events recently are entirely full of unbeatable alphas, quite unsporting of them.

Sorry, hard to take seriously that a strategy of alpha strikes is somehow poor sportsmanship and toxic. Not unavoidable high PS bombs, or regen, or point fortresses, or PS 11 repositioning from a ghost. Nope, it's Alpha Strikes.

the "alpha" in "alpha strike" is hitting first, literally the alpha attack. in the real world and some games thats done by having a longer range weapon or attacking first with surprise.

in x-wing where ranges are standardized, that translates to having higher pilot skill and firing a barrage of missiles before your opponent attacks.

A ps1 z95 list built around missiles is not an alpha strike list, its an ordinance list. ordinance is kinda stupid right now, but has counterplay.

alpha strikes (high pilot skill attempts to kill an opponent with potent missiles before they can return fire) are awful. why should i bother playing a game where ships consistently explode before they get a shot off? thats idiotic. and before someone tries to straw-man words into my mouth, obviously no one is saying all lists should be equally awesome. missiles and bombs should counter certain things and play a powerful role in the game. they just shouldnt be making the game less fun

9 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

If a list can be beaten simply by choosing both the speed and direction of dials properly its probably closer to jank than it is to the S-Tier.

Maybe thats what I should have said from the start instead of calling Gunboats bad.

Rho/Rho/Vader fits that same description.

Its bad because I could beat it just by not being bad at X-Wing.

Should separately mention that if your goal is to win a tournament, not just make Top 8-16 the definition of what is good changes drastically.

You do realize that people can (and do) fly their boats in a way that minimizes this scenario, yes?

what ships are people running that are high PS ordnance alpha strikes? Most of the lists that run Ordnance I've seen placing high in tournaments are generic ships that aim to throw an entire tree's worth of cardboard upgrade missiles at the enemy.

And it's part of the game, and there's an incredible game of cat and mouse during the approach as you both try to control the range of the engagement? Remember the Rule of 11 from back in the day? Back then, any X-Wing player worth their salt should know how to fly their ships to get the best range during the initial joust.

Maybe actual flying skills aren't at the premium they used to be. But I think that anyone calling their opponents "bad sports" for flying ordnance needs some advice:

Git Gud.

So the article shows Guidance Chips on the Auzitucks. Why?

For lolz

53 minutes ago, jimmius said:

what ships are people running that are high PS ordnance alpha strikes? Most of the lists that run Ordnance I've seen placing high in tournaments are generic ships that aim to throw an entire tree's worth of cardboard upgrade missiles at the enemy.

And it's part of the game, and there's an incredible game of cat and mouse during the approach as you both try to control the range of the engagement? Remember the Rule of 11 from back in the day? Back then, any X-Wing player worth their salt should know how to fly their ships to get the best range during the initial joust.

Maybe actual flying skills aren't at the premium they used to be. But I think that anyone calling their opponents "bad sports" for flying ordnance needs some advice:

Git Gud.

git gud at the game yourself dude.

if you get good at the game and understand the basic mechanics, you'll realise there are currently some balance issues

12 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

the "alpha" in "alpha strike" is hitting first, literally the alpha attack. in the real world and some games thats done by having a longer range weapon or attacking first with surprise.

in x-wing where ranges are standardized, that translates to having higher pilot skill and firing a barrage of missiles before your opponent attacks.

A ps1 z95 list built around missiles is not an alpha strike list, its an ordinance list. ordinance is kinda stupid right now, but has counterplay.

alpha strikes (high pilot skill attempts to kill an opponent with potent missiles before they can return fire) are awful. why should i bother playing a game where ships consistently explode before they get a shot off? thats idiotic. and before someone tries to straw-man words into my mouth, obviously no one is saying all lists should be equally awesome. missiles and bombs should counter certain things and play a powerful role in the game. they just shouldnt be making the game less fun

I'd just like to point out at this juncture that I'm currently unbeaten against PS11 Vader/Quickdraw and PS10 Inquistor Imperial Alpha strike lists., in multiple games against multiple (talented) players, while I've been flying PS1-7 ships.

I think I've been actually hit by the ordnance... what, once, twice across those games? Never by more than one missile at a time. And trust me, if I can avoid the alpha, then so can anyone on the forum.

These high PS alphastriking lists are nowhere near the bugbear @Vontoothskie is making them out to be, and certainly nowhere near the top of the "unfun" list. If your opponent has a list that uses a combination of high PS and ordnance then, you know what their game plan is going to be when you see their list. So don't let them execute that game plan. As @Vontoothskie mentions above, ranges are standardised, and they're reliying on their primary arcs. If you can't use that information to your own advantage, then you truly do need to git gud. Or Countermeasures.

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

git gud at the game yourself dude.

if you get good at the game and understand the basic mechanics, you'll realise there are currently some balance issues

cry more lmao

16 hours ago, mdl0114 said:

Ok, 8 of them with ion cannon, flechette cannon, extra munitions, cannon title, harpoon missiles, long range scanners and then 60 points for 5 academy pilot TIEs, 13 ships, shouldn't take more than 15 minutes a turn to move not-counting SLAM thinking time!

Can't do that either, cause the FAQ says no more than 4 of the same secondary weapon in epic now, and you HAVE to take an epic ship.

2 hours ago, Mediocrevan said:

Can't do that either, cause the FAQ says no more than 4 of the same secondary weapon in epic now, and you HAVE to take an epic ship.

Does anyone else think a lot of problems would be solved if the Ghost was FAQd to have one epic point?

Its a crime that the Ghost is in standard but the Rebel Transport isn’t.

I would be sad if the Ghost was epic only. I love the Ghost, but I don't play epic.

OK, I kinda wanted to put my money where my mouth was about the Ghost, maybe TLT is toxic, but she's pretty much toxic everywhere she lands, so it's just a poorly designed card, but perhaps it's not the real reason the Ghost is OP (if it is as my hypothesis states). So, after looking at the builds and running simulations against other build types, it seems that the ship was only very good with her previous Kanan, Phantom docked, Turret upgrades, etc. But now she's a different and far better story. I think perhaps this little high-powered low-cost Shethapede's abilities and crew cards that pushed it from a solid good choice meta ship for the right build to an OP ship in the right build. It is kinda the historical inverse from the Defender's rise and fall from OP power as they were once OP with their pre-nerf X7 Title within the right build to simply being a solid choice meta ship in the right build.

So, removing the "it's too easy to fly and get real results" argument and the "it's simply not fun to fly against and if someone tells you it's fun to fly they're lying" theory, we're left with mechanics. I'm no expert, but if my laboratory trials and analysis are correct, the Ghost needs a little pull-back nerf from FFG to take it down a notch akin to the power-reduction given the TIE Defender X7.

.....least that's my conclusion.

just give TLT the unguided rockets clause. You can modify one of the shots, once, by spending your tokens. You know, like how the game used to be?

?

On 2/23/2018 at 6:36 PM, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. I really wish they had never done any of this.

I don't like the huge mass of upgrades and danger zones on the Ghost.

Ezra Maul was already looking kinda bonkers.

PS11 Coordinate for 21 points? What the heck. Rebels never needed this in the first place, they already have tons of ways to get actions. And really, PS11 Coordinate??

The only way I think it would be healthy to give Rebels coordinate at all would have been to hard cap Fenn at PS7 with no EPT slot at all.

--

Thanks for making it very plain that this is mathematically ridiculous on top of the PS11 coordinate.

Looks like there is even room for a 1 pt bid too. Means my 11 Poe will still move before the final ghost positioning. Looks like I need to focus fire down the bug as fast as possible and then deal with the ghost with known position. A lucky first salvo of dice could be crucial if I can’t modify anything.

Approach is huge with this list.