2 hours ago, AngryAlbatross said:A real solution would be to prevent both shuttles from being in the same list. Since in the rebels show they never coexisted anyway.
There's a lot of characters that didn't coexist that can be played together in this game. It's a really weird time to draw that line only now.
1 minute ago, Sekac said:There's a lot of characters that didn't coexist that can be played together in this game. It's a really weird time to draw that line only now.
It's less that it's a line that's important to draw and more that it's a solution to the problem that effects the fewest number of cards (literally only this list) and has a bit of flavor to it.
2 hours ago, AngryAlbatross said:A real solution would be to prevent both shuttles from being in the same list. Since in the rebels show they never coexisted anyway.
Don't take away my synced turret ffg! Its wholesome and fun!
My problem with this solution is that it actually makes little to no fluff sense. If part of what made the sheathipede dangerous was the Phantom 2 title, there would be a case. But that doesn't come up and Sheathipedes are ships that exist out in the universe without the Attack Shuttle's influence.
10 minutes ago, Makaze said:It's less that it's a line that's important to draw and more that it's a solution to the problem that effects the fewest number of cards (literally only this list) and has a bit of flavor to it.
Not enough flavor in my mind as the Sheathipede is a potentially older design than the Attack Shuttle and just because it effects the least amount of cards doesn't make it right.
1 minute ago, SabineKey said:Not enough flavor in my mind as the Sheathipede is a potentially older design than the Attack Shuttle and just because it effects the least amount of cards doesn't make it right.
Well to be frank absolutely nothing about the Sheathipede itself is dangerous, it's all Fenn Rau's ability and PS. Did he ever fly one other than that one? Also the fact that there are literally no generic Sheathipede pilots tends to indicate that the ship on the table is specifically the one from Rebels, title or no title.
As for it effecting the least number of cards, that's not an overriding imperative in my mind but given the nature of many past FAQ nerfs it seems to be rather important in FFG's eyes
1 minute ago, Makaze said:Well to be frank absolutely nothing about the Sheathipede itself is dangerous, it's all Fenn Rau's ability and PS. Did he ever fly one other than that one? Also the fact that there are literally no generic Sheathipede pilots tends to indicate that the ship on the table is specifically the one from Rebels, title or no title.
As for it effecting the least number of cards, that's not an overriding imperative in my mind but given the nature of many past FAQ nerfs it seems to be rather important in FFG's eyes
And yet we do not have such restricts on Rebels TIEs, ARCs, the Attack shuttle, or even most of the YT-13s who have the stat line of the Falcon instead of a stock one. So unless you are willing to campaign against running multiples of these ships, you're exception idea is against historical data. Also for your example of Fenn Rau only flying the one, we have examples of ships with pilots who never flew it, so that point becomes less of an issue.
You claim this has little impact, but it does for players who want to play the two Phantoms in a none Ghost list. There are far more laser focused fixes (such as requiring the end of round shot to be made from a turret on the Attack shuttle or errating in a point value limit on the turret) that make way more sense than disallowing to completely different ships from being in lists together.
I do claim that it has little impact since... no one flies the Attack Shuttle separately. I mean there's just no reason to, so who cares?
Besides, I'm not even saying it's the right fix. There are a multitude of potential fixes, some of which would do more good for the overall game than this one. All I'm saying is that it does the job, is limited in impact (unlike say a TLT change), and has a certain thematic elegance to it. Not letting the 2 Phantoms coexist in the same list is at its heart a mechanical fix that just happens to have a fluff explanation sitting next to it, but it doesn't rely on it. So pointing out other fluff problems not only doesn't invalidate it, don't let perfect be the enemy of good, but it's also irrelevant since it's just a backfitted excuse anyways.
26 minutes ago, Makaze said:
- Rebel TIEs - Let's be honest probably should be unique. But there was no existing card text mechanic for that and multiple of them is far from a balance problem so meh whatevs
- ARCs - The lack of generic ARCs represents how it is, in the period of the Galactic Civil War, a fairly rare ship owned by an individual and not something combat units are quipped with en mass. Is the ARC that Shara Bey flies the same one as Norra? No, but Shara's ARC is Shara's ARC, not just some ARC. Just like the Sheathipede is that Sheathipede from Rebels not just some Sheathipede
- Attack Shuttle - Ummmmm, OK... kinda making my point for me there...
- YT-1300 - The presence of the Rebel Sympathizer indicates that there are other upgunned YT-1300s out there
I do claim that it has little impact since... no one flies the Attack Shuttle separately. I mean there's just no reason to, so who cares?
Besides, I'm not even saying it's the right fix. There are a multitude of potential fixes, some of which would do more good for the overall game than this one. All I'm saying is that it does the job, is limited in impact (unlike say a TLT change), and has a certain thematic elegance to it. Not letting the 2 Phantoms coexist in the same list is at its heart a mechanical fix that just happens to have a fluff explanation sitting next to it, but it doesn't rely on it. So pointing out other fluff problems not only doesn't invalidate it, don't let perfect be the enemy of good, but it's also irrelevant since it's just a backfitted excuse anyways.
Your point on the Rebel TIEs about "no existing card text mechanic" is exactly my point. The suggestion is baseless within the rules. My point is if you want to apply that logic, be prepared for it to apply else where as well.
Your point about nobody flying the Attack Shuttle separately is false. Take it from someone who won a store kit with it.
I have also demonstrated why it does not have a thematic elegance because the Sheathipede is actually an older ship than the Attack Shuttle and can come under your ARC defense better than you think. The ship that became the Phantom 2 would still exist even if the Phantom 1 hadn't been destroyed. Maybe even still used by Rebels, but we won't know.
Your final bit about gameplay over fluff isn't bad, but if it didn't matter, you shouldn't have made an attempt to use fluff to justify it as part of your argument.
i also say it is bad gameplay as it is unprecedented, clumsy in design, and unduly restricts list building.
13 minutes ago, SabineKey said:Your point on the Rebel TIEs about "no existing card text mechanic" is exactly my point. The suggestion is baseless within the rules. My point is if you want to apply that logic, be prepared for it to apply else where as well.
It's obviously baseless within the rules, I mean other than if it became a rule. So what? And why would it need to be applied everywhere? Logical consistency within the ruleset? That ship sailed a looooooong time ago
14 minutes ago, SabineKey said:Your point about nobody flying the Attack Shuttle separately is false. Take it from someone who won a store kit with it.
Ummmm... ok that's great and all. Nothing stopping you from doing that again. Also maybe dial back on the literalism a bit, when someone says "No one flies that" they mean that in a general sense that it's flown in low numbers and in non-competetive lists (note that winning a store champ does not in any way make a list competitive. Take it from someone who has won a couple store champs with severely jank joke lists)
18 minutes ago, SabineKey said:I have also demonstrated why it does not have a thematic elegance because the Sheathipede is actually an older ship than the Attack Shuttle and can come under your ARC defense better than you think. The ship that became the Phantom 2 would still exist even if the Phantom 1 hadn't been destroyed. Maybe even still used by Rebels, but we won't know.
I think you're missing the point, like completely and utterly. It's not about a demonstration or a reduction to logical certitude or eliminating the all hypothetical possibilities in a fictional universe. It's about said change kinda feeling like there's an in universe reason behind it instead of being completely arbitrary. So again, pointing out other inconsistencies is pointless. But something tells me that's not going to stop you...
24 minutes ago, SabineKey said:Your final bit about gameplay over fluff isn't bad, but if it didn't matter, you shouldn't have made an attempt to use fluff to justify it as part of your argument.
i also say it is bad gameplay as it is unprecedented, clumsy in design, and unduly restricts list building.
Why? If you agree with it it's a positive as it makes the mechanical change make sense contextually. If you don't, as you clearly don't, then whatever feel free to ignore it. That's the whole point of fluff
And again, you're free to think it's a crappy change from a mechanical perspective, I don't even thing it's the best of the options. But hey, you keep tilting that OCD windmill about how you're technically correct about the iron clad rules impact of fluff or whatever without me
8 minutes ago, Makaze said:It's obviously baseless within the rules, I mean other than if it became a rule. So what? And why would it need to be applied everywhere? Logical consistency within the ruleset? That ship sailed a looooooong time ago
Ummmm... ok that's great and all. Nothing stopping you from doing that again. Also maybe dial back on the literalism a bit, when someone says "No one flies that" they mean that in a general sense that it's flown in low numbers and in non-competetive lists (note that winning a store champ does not in any way make a list competitive. Take it from someone who has won a couple store champs with severely jank joke lists)
I think you're missing the point, like completely and utterly. It's not about a demonstration or a reduction to logical certitude or eliminating the all hypothetical possibilities in a fictional universe. It's about said change kinda feeling like there's an in universe reason behind it instead of being completely arbitrary. So again, pointing out other inconsistencies is pointless. But something tells me that's not going to stop you...
Why? If you agree with it it's a positive as it makes the mechanical change make sense contextually. If you don't, as you clearly don't, then whatever feel free to ignore it. That's the whole point of fluff
And again, you're free to think it's a crappy change from a mechanical perspective, I don't even thing it's the best of the options. But hey, you keep tilting that OCD windmill about how you're technically correct about the iron clad rules impact of fluff or whatever without me
Then why are you defending it? You've said that you don't think it is the best option, and that it is baseless, so why support it?
I just thought of something cool to do with a Phantom II build. You get a free coordinate action, and you could use it to Experimental Interface something on your Ghost! Like... um... Lando? or Leebo...
...
...
Well, it's a cool concept anyhow.
25 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:I just thought of something cool to do with a Phantom II build. You get a free coordinate action, and you could use it to Experimental Interface something on your Ghost! Like... um... Lando? or Leebo...
...
...
Well, it's a cool concept anyhow.
Could use it for Jyn on a Kannan, that seems pretty pheasible
Looking forward to going to my first regional in a few weeks. I really like the ghost (rebel fan) and am excited to see it on the table (I personally love when the large scale ships are on the board with the small ships). Just hope I don’t have to play the same list a lot. Most likely I will be in the bottom third or quarter of the pack so I’m hoping for more list variation there.
Im planning on running a bb8 Poe and dash list so I really can’t complain about others lists. Hopefully I can fly around and drag the ghost through asteroids to give me an advantage. Focus on Fenn first to atleastdeny the late boost.
How do mirror matches work with this list? I imagine it’s very boring with. Neither list getting a chance to modify dice so a lot of ties?
While the Phantom2 did not exist the same time the Phantom1 did, the ship itself did.
Phantom is a title, the ship itself is the Attack Shuttle // Sheathipede. They all exist, and technically having one docked and one not makes sense because only the one docked has the Phantom title anyway. The one flying around on its own is just a generic shuttle that happens to be piloted by a rebels
character.
(this is why boba'ing the title off the ghost works, because the ship itself is not a ghost/phantom, thats its unique-ship name given by the title)
Edited by Vineheart0116 hours ago, Dpro said:Looking forward to going to my first regional in a few weeks. I really like the ghost (rebel fan) and am excited to see it on the table (I personally love when the large scale ships are on the board with the small ships). Just hope I don’t have to play the same list a lot. Most likely I will be in the bottom third or quarter of the pack so I’m hoping for more list variation there.
Im planning on running a bb8 Poe and dash list so I really can’t complain about others lists. Hopefully I can fly around and drag the ghost through asteroids to give me an advantage. Focus on Fenn first to atleastdeny the late boost.
How do mirror matches work with this list? I imagine it’s very boring with. Neither list getting a chance to modify dice so a lot of ties?
Mostly they both DO get to modify their dice because they use mods that Fenn doesn't block, so it's basically Yahtzee and initiative. Whoever's dice and damage deck are kindest to them probably wins, unless the person with init can leverage it to get shots the other person cannot.
22 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Mostly they both DO get to modify their dice because they use mods that Fenn doesn't block, so it's basically Yahtzee and initiative. Whoever's dice and damage deck are kindest to them probably wins, unless the person with init can leverage it to get shots the other person cannot.
And then you run into the latest version, which runs R3-A2 on Fenn. StressFenn shuts off the ability on the other Fenn (irrelevant as it is) or turns off Maul's rerolls for an attack. Taking R3-A2 costs an extra point though, so in a mirror vs FAA Fenn your opponent will get to choose who gets initiative.
On 22/02/2018 at 5:28 PM, gamblertuba said:If TLT did not exist, the meta becomes much more interesting IMO. Back in the day, folks argued that TLT was needed to keep Fat Han under control. I think munitions can do that job just fine now. If Miranda can't shoot twice, she is much more manageable. If the Ghost couldn't shoot 4 times, it's better. Nym isn't good at everything without a TLT. That one card plays a huge role in so much that is wrong and bad right now.
But then you destroy ships that rely on TLT to have any kind of chance at performing. Like the Ywing, the HWK and the Tie aggressor.
You have exactly 2 ships that are OP with TLTs (actually its more 2 pilots: Kanan and Miranda). The others are fine.
And Nym. Don't forget Nym.
Nym isn’t overpowered with TLT.
I would point out though that y-wings, hawks etc are just as scary with ion cannon though they require slightly different flying.
Why isn't this Nerf Herding Thread locked yet?
Because the ghost is still broken bull#£&e?
Just now, Estarriol said:Because the ghost is still broken bull#£&e?
I forgot how many
Laser Brained Nerf Herders
roam this place and reddit.
Thanks for bumping the thread up, though
1 hour ago, Thormind said:But then you destroy ships that rely on TLT to have any kind of chance at performing. Like the Ywing, the HWK and the Tie aggressor.
You have exactly 2 ships that are OP with TLTs (actually its more 2 pilots: Kanan and Miranda). The others are fine.
Easily acceptable sacrifices given their rarity anyway
Besides, Synch Turret is so **** close to being viable you could put those ships right back into the game by removing its firing restriction