4 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

How about a Quad TLT list? Doesn't that beat the Ghost very very very easily?

No, it doesn't. (Hot-Shot Co-Pilot, Rau's ability, Sensor Jammer, Boost into donuts. The Quad-TLTs start losing the damage race very, very quickly.)

10 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Sorry, don't understand the problem here.

How about a Quad TLT list? Doesn't that beat the Ghost very very very easily?

Look at the above list. 23 Hit point. 32 red dice thrown at the ghost each turn. Or if you take the title off you’re throwing 24 dice each turn.

5 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

...Fel is PS 9, which is now very beatable. The Ghost has 16 HP and boosts at PS 11.

This.

You sir illuminate the "what" on this build that pushes it over-the-hill down the slope of "bad for the game" in contrast to being the king of the hill as the previous Ghost Biggs was just quite good and near the crest, never bad for the game, IMO.

2 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

32 Red Dice ( 100 )

Gold Squadron Pilot — Y-Wing	18
Twin Laser Turret	6
Flight-Assist Astromech	1
BTL-A4 Y-Wing	0
Ship Total: 25
Gold Squadron Pilot — Y-Wing	18
Twin Laser Turret	6
Flight-Assist Astromech	1
Ship Total: 25
Gold Squadron Pilot — Y-Wing	18
Twin Laser Turret	6
Flight-Assist Astromech	1
Ship Total: 25
Gold Squadron Pilot — Y-Wing	18
Twin Laser Turret	6
Flight-Assist Astromech	1
Ship Total: 25

What's with the 32? Total amount of dice needed to kill it?

19 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Sorry, don't understand the problem here.

How about a Quad TLT list? Doesn't that beat the Ghost very very very easily?

Or another Ghost list with a bid?

Seriously, if I wanted to fly boring stuff I would.

6 minutes ago, flooze said:

What's with the 32? Total amount of dice needed to kill it?

That list is tossing 32 red dice a turn if all arcs are on one ship at range 2-3.

6 minutes ago, flooze said:

What's with the 32? Total amount of dice needed to kill it?

If all four Y-wings are equipped with title, and all four get arc at R2-3, the list rolls 32 attack dice (8 for four Y-wing primaries + 24 for four TLT double-taps).

6 minutes ago, flooze said:

What's with the 32? Total amount of dice needed to kill it?

The number of red Dice that 4 btl/a4 can throw out a turn, like more than two of them will be able to shoot! Lol

2 minutes ago, viedit said:

That list is tossing 32 red dice a turn if all arcs are on one ship at range 2-3.

In my book 2*3*4 is 24? What do I miss?

Edit: I c, missed the title

15 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

One-third -- if you half-kill it -- is a "good chunk"? The current Ghost is the best point-fortress in the game, Miranda notwithstanding.

This betrays a significant (and common) underestimation of the accuracy and damage output of the list. (It makes me suspect you haven't played against it, or plugged the numbers into a good X-Wing calculator.) There is almost no difference between AGI 1 and AGI 2 with regard to expected damage of Mauler Ghost. It drops with AGI 3, and it drops with Autothrusters, but it remains impressive even against those.

Sure, but Fel hits like a wet noodle, and Fel relies on that perfect information for a lot of his survivability. Also, Fel is PS 9, which is now very beatable. The Ghost has 16 HP and boosts at PS 11.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a "passive modification" is. Just of those you list, Fenn turns off the TL provided by K4 and the Focus received by stressed Fel. Also, if Expertise has been around for " a ton of time," I think I may have blacked out for a couple of years.

So you agree, Miranda is a worse point fortress. The only reason that the Ghost is the 2nd worst is because there aren't large based ships these days that exceed the 50pt margin except for the Ghost. I suppose if Rey was around more she'd be the second most. But the Ghost still pales in comparison to the old Fat Han or the current Miranda, or Corran for those times you play against Nathan.

Sure, no difference between Agi 1 and 2 if you just stay out there in the open. But use your freakin cover. You get a 3rd agility for 4 attacks while giving the ghost 1 agility for 1 attack. As a long time Kanan/Biggs player, I was always baffled how few people actively used cover throughout the fight. And news flash - when they did, their win rate tripled*. *Subjective number based on recall of personal experiences. Do not take to be a hard fact.

He boosts at PS11 once, maybe twice. Anything more than that and you have a different problem - why the heck can't you kill a 5 health 2 agility tokenless ship in 2 rounds? Then he's stuck at PS3 (or PS5, but really, what's the difference?), and how much good does a PS3 boost do? Also, if you use your Palp on offense, Fel no longer hits like a wet noodle.

No, I clarified passive or passive free action. There are very few passive modifications in the game. Predator, Expertise, ATC*, SJ, Finn, LW, HLC (crit to hit), various ordnance... Am I missing any ? As far as not being shutdown by Fenn you also have Palp. *Requires a TL token, but not to spend, so kinda gray. Obviously the big two are Pred and Expertise for offensive mods. Calling out expertise as being around for "a ton of time" when I said passive mods have been around for a ton of time is putting words into my mouth. But since you pointed it out, Expertised was released on Feb 2nd, 2017, over a year ago. Predator, the first passive mod was released back in Wave 4, released June 26th, 2014. So yeah, passive mods have been around for awhile.

And you failed to answer my actual question - what would we be seeing on the tables if the Ghost vanished? What is the Ghost countering so hard that it's not even worth putting out there?

15 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Or another Ghost list with a bid?

Seriously, if I wanted to fly boring stuff I would.

Lists that pound the Ghost+Fenn:

Ordnance lists
TLT lists
AT lists
3+agi lists
Kylo lists
x7 lists
Ion lists
Stress lists
Swarms
Bombing lists

24 minutes ago, Khyros said:

Lists that pound the Ghost+Fenn:

Ordnance lists
TLT lists
AT lists
3+agi lists
Kylo lists
x7 lists
Ion lists
Stress lists
Swarms
Bombing lists

I don't know that most of these archetypes have a massive enough advantage to "pound it" There are certainly elements that make more a game of it than some archetypes, but many of them --even if they do have some advantages (and I don't think they all do) -- have very significant flaws against the rest of the meta.

The strongest single card counter is probably Boba Fett (crew).

Sensor Jammer is brutal against something like the quad y-wings that were proposed

9 minutes ago, AlexW said:

The strongest single card counter is probably Boba Fett (crew).

really wish his crew card was Imperial and Scum only....

42 minutes ago, Khyros said:

So you agree, Miranda is a worse point fortress.

That's actually the opposite of what "Miranda notwithstanding" means.

Quote

What is the Ghost countering so hard that it's not even worth putting out there?

Very nearly everything otherwise competitive that does not have heavy passive modifications.

50 minutes ago, Khyros said:

Lists that pound the Ghost+Fenn:

[Wrong stuff.]

Kkyros, please be honest: have you actually played with and against the Mauler Ghost? Because everything you say indicates that you haven't, so most of the people reading this are baffled as to why you believe what you believe.

Pssh... I took out a ghost with Guri over 5 rounds. Not a big deal.

1 hour ago, viedit said:

That list is tossing 32 red dice a turn if all arcs are on one ship at range 2-3.

Or remove the title and you get 24 red dice every turn.

2 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

Or remove the title and you get 24 red dice every turn.

Not with flight assist still equipped. That's in arc only. It pairs well with the title. In fact you are handicapping yourself if you take flight assist and *not* the title.

11 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Kkyros, please be honest: have you actually played with and against the Mauler Ghost? Because everything you say indicates that you haven't, so most of the people reading this are baffled as to why you believe what you believe.

With, no. Against, Yes.

Why do I believe what I do? Because I've been playing this game for 5 years now, and I've seen plenty of stuff that's far worse than this, I'd be surprised if this was actually top 10. And I get annoyed when people call it a NPE to play against a list that beats theirs without taking a look at why it beats theirs and instead just complaining that it's OP and a NPE and nerfhammer away! Especially in light of the recent massive changes to meta balance that the FFG team seem to make based on the outcries of a select few here on the forums. The only "errata" (cough *nerf*) that seems to have actually been a positive experience for the game was the change to Whisper. Prior to FFG's willingness to change everything based on people's complaints, starting 20 threads a day about the same NPE you had this one time against this guy that just picked up the game and rolled perfect and smoked you, was just you complaining. Now apparently FFG is going to go and change stuff to "satisfy" the player base. Except all that does is add more rules bloating to an already bloated game, making it less accessible to newer players, which will eventually be its downfall.

6 minutes ago, viedit said:

Not with flight assist still equipped. That's in arc only. It pairs well with the title. In fact you are handicapping yourself if you take flight assist and *not* the title.

Flight assist gives you the option, you don’t have to use it.

1 minute ago, Pooleman said:

Flight assist gives you the option, you don’t have to use it.

First line of card. You cannot attack ships outside of your firing arc.

5 minutes ago, Pooleman said:

Or remove the title and you get 24 red dice every turn.

And of those 24 dice you'll generally get to roll around 12 of them doing a grand total of a max 4 damage each turn but only 3 on average due to sensor jammer. On turn 2 the Ghost will drop a Y-wing but till still be at absolutely full offensive power. Repeat on turn 4, 6 and 8. Even if by some miracle of dice and poor flying on their part you get the Ghost down low you'll be eating a 4 dice R1 primary from the 4 health shuttle that just popped out in addition to one last TLT volley...

Quad TLTs is a really bad counter

18 minutes ago, Chaotix said:

Pssh... I took out a ghost with Guri over 5 rounds. Not a big deal.

oh, this version is a tough list to take on, no doubt. but yeah, I don't feel it's so OP it needs changes. But that's me. this thread has been an interesting read.