@Vargas79, fearlessness is bad on Fenn though, and I never fly Fenn without another fighter rocking Bodyguard(scums best upgrade) and another fighter with wingman.

My Fenn at range 1 with a bodyguard rolls 6 defense and has a focus and evade. potentially 7 evades!

thats 3 base agility, +1 from bodyguard, +1 from stealth device, +1 from his ability, an evade from title, and focus from action. paired with torkill mux its pretty silly

even outside range 1 youre still rolling 5 to 6 green.

as to dial, youd give up talon rolls for a green strait? different playstyles i guess

6 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

@Vargas79, fearlessness is bad on Fenn though, and I never fly Fenn without another fighter rocking Bodyguard(scums best upgrade) and another fighter with wingman.

My Fenn at range 1 with a bodyguard rolls 6 defense and has a focus and evade. potentially 7 evades!

thats 3 base agility, +1 from bodyguard, +1 from stealth device, +1 from his ability, an evade from title, and focus from action. paired with torkill mux its pretty silly

even outside range 1 youre still rolling 5 to 6 green.

as to dial, youd give up talon rolls for a green strait? different playstyles i guess

So why is Fearlessnessess bad on Fenn?

Also, I never thought about putting Rau with a fighter that has Bodyguard... however, what fighter would that be then?

17 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Not quite true. Fenn has the potential (small though it may be) of getting a higher number of evades, but that doesn’t mean his better at evading. How many times do you need SIX evades on one roll, even at range 1?

Almost never.

If your opponent rolls 3 hits then anything over 3 evades doesn’t matter.

But aside from that, Fenn’s defenses are much more luck based, and depend heavily on getting into that range-1 in-arc sweet spot. If you can’t pull that off then you’re at the mercy of the dice gods.

Soontir, with a consistent x2 focus tokens and evade token has a much more reliable defense. That’s what makes him more survivable.

That was kind of my point: 32 points isn’t the optimal Soontir build, but Fenn can get by okay at that level. Soontir however needs those 3 extra points to get up to his full potential.

each potential evade is a higher likelyhood of rolling evade or focus, so more is better. you dont need 6 agility, but rolling 6 die statistically will give you 4 evades(if you have focus). you often NEED 4 evades, so its worth stacking the odds to that end.

Bodyguard is cheaper, easier to find slots for, and less of a strategy commitment than Palpatine, and what it does for Fenn is close to what Palp does for Fel. the importance of that is hard to overstate.

11 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

each potential evade is a higher likelyhood of rolling evade or focus, so more is better. you dont need 6 agility, but rolling 6 die statistically will give you 4 evades(if you have focus). you often NEED 4 evades, so its worth stacking the odds to that end.

Bodyguard is cheaper, easier to find slots for, and less of a strategy commitment than Palpatine, and what it does for Fenn is close to what Palp does for Fel. the importance of that is hard to overstate.

@ficklegreendice that’s your cue.

3 hours ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

So why is Fearlessnessess bad on Fenn?

Also, I never thought about putting Rau with a fighter that has Bodyguard... however, what fighter would that be then?

in my experience an upgrade you can use every turn is better than a situational upgrade, doubly so for high value targets like fenn. your opponent wants Fenn dead, and fearlessness isnt likely to stop them. PTL gives you more option. also Fenn is good head to head but you still want to arc-dodge if you can.

any scum build i do has Bodygaurd if i can fit it, either on a cheap ept carrier like Inaldra or a tank like a Gonked-up Mandalorean mercenary

Ive had success putting it on Tel Tevura with a hull upgrade too.

Serrisu in addition to a bodyguard can be sweet, because your getting defensive rerolls and the extra agilty so people basically have to kill your support first

you want your opponent wasting valuable shots and turns killing your bodyguard while your real threat burns them down, so any decent pilot with an ept and some mobility(bodyguard is range based) can pull it off

3 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

@ficklegreendice that’s your cue.

the blade of truth is sharp as it is cruel

3 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

each potential evade is a higher likelyhood of rolling evade or focus, so more is better. you dont need 6 agility, but rolling 6 die statistically will give you 4 evades(if you have focus). you often NEED 4 evades, so its worth stacking the odds to that end.

Bodyguard is cheaper, easier to find slots for, and less of a strategy commitment than Palpatine, and what it does for Fenn is close to what Palp does for Fel. the importance of that is hard to overstate.

Oh poor, sweet summer child

He has yet to understand how much of a toss green dice give about probability and averages

(Also bodyguard is dogshit terrible as it's range 1, another friendly, eats your modifier, and provides another blank result

It is easily one of the worst upgrades in the game, just below expose and just above r3)

5 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Oh poor, sweet summer child

He has yet to understand how much of a toss green dice give about probability and averages

(Also bodyguard is dogshit terrible as it's range 1, another friendly, eats your modifier, and provides another blank result

It is easily one of the worst upgrades in the game, just below expose and just above r3)

ha, says you. im at 90% winrate with bodyguard, better than i am with anything other than Dash/Corran a couple years ago.

bodyguard is amazeballs fantastic. I literally will not fly a scum ace with it somewhere in the list.

15 points for it on a light-titled Inaldra is absurd point economy.

my Fenn build with her is 50 points, leaving 50 for anything I want. not saying it unbeatable OP, but certainly better than a lot of things you can buy for he price

Quick question. Do you ever take the huge piles of dice and templates you've won with bodyguard, fill up your bathtub with them, and dive in Scrooge McDuck style?

Followup question. Do you randomly break into song at your bodyguard card during games? https://youtu.be/1HgOuQ7hkJI?t=1m50s

Fel can get Palpatine, Fen cannot. Fel gets evade action at any range, Fen does not. Fen gets range-dependent bonuses and Fel gets basically three actions. Fel hates extra stress and Fen can take Attanni Mindlink and get focus on future turns regardless.

I love Fen more but think Fel is better IMO. However, Empire has better options right now and Fen is better in Rebels.

7 hours ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

So, I recently picked up a Protectorate Starfighter and I started flying the heck out of it.

My first ship after the Core was an interceptor and an A-wing for the PTL upgrade

Now I find myself in an awkward spot: I do not know if I have just been very lucky with Fenn (and therefore I am wrongly biased) or if it is true: Fenn is better than Soontir..?

For 32 points you either have:

Soontir Fel (PS 9)

• PTL
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

or

Fenn Rau (PS 9)

• Fearlessness
• Title
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

With Rau you can actually get a potential 6 hits per attack at range one and 5 potential evade results at range 1 (in both cases provided you are in enemy arc)

With Fel you can do 2 actions and a free focus token, for stress. So you can focus + focus + evade or Barrel Roll + Boost + focus. (or any other combination of actions)

Fel has more Green maneuvers, Rau has the amazing Talon Roll.

I think that they so far are quite balanced in their own field but here is the deal: Rau can both Arc-dodge and Arc-Not-Dodge... It benefits him either way. Fel on the other hand is frankly F***ed if he doesnt quite dodge the arc...

That is why I think that Fenn is a better Soontir then Soontir.

Opinion? Yes.

Interessted in a discussion about this? Always

Let me know what you think!

I've always found Fenn to be over rated as a super ace. Sure, he hits like a truck at range 1 but without PtL (to keep him at 32 points for your comparison) he would melt if he gets caught anywhere in range 2. A single focus just isn't going to cut it against the 4 dice attacks that are thrown around these days.

Fel has always been the super hard to touch ace. Focus, Focus, Evade lets you dodge multiple shots and likely leaves you a focus for attack. The trade off being that he cant target lock. I think that Optimized Prototype will definitely help him but he'll still be marginal as long as PS10 bombs are a thing.

The builds that you listed are balanced with each other in my opinion, they just have different strengths and weaknesses

4 hours ago, Makaze said:

Quick question. Do you ever take the huge piles of dice and templates you've won with bodyguard, fill up your bathtub with them, and dive in Scrooge McDuck style?

Followup question. Do you randomly break into song at your bodyguard card during games? https://youtu.be/1HgOuQ7hkJI?t=1m50s

my real prize is the true and purest joy in gaming, getting to play

but seriously remember when everyone was freaking out about how the k-wing was bad? then six months later triple wardens and the age of Miranda began and you couldnt find one for less than 40 bucks on ebay.

How about the 3 months after the Tie:SF released, when everybody claimed it wasnt viable? then backdraft and quickdraw powned

or hillariously when rebels were supposed to be the "bad" faction that couldnt compete with OP imp aces and Scums bargain bin squad pricing? now its Miranda, Nym, wookies, rebel Fenn, vcx, Dash, etc all day... all OP.

the meta is wildly wrong a whole lot, and people just follow the herd until someone who actually makes lists wins a tournament with the new Jam.

Long story short, bodyguard is not only the best scum card, or the best card in X-wing, its the best thing to happen to our world since God made America and let the dragon of liberty ride free

10 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

@Vargas79, fearlessness is bad on Fenn though, and I never fly Fenn without another fighter rocking Bodyguard(scums best upgrade) and another fighter with wingman.

My Fenn at range 1 with a bodyguard rolls 6 defense and has a focus and evade. potentially 7 evades!

thats 3 base agility, +1 from bodyguard, +1 from stealth device, +1 from his ability, an evade from title, and focus from action. paired with torkill mux its pretty silly

even outside range 1 youre still rolling 5 to 6 green.

as to dial, youd give up talon rolls for a green strait? different playstyles i guess

Can’t tell if serious. Say Fearlessness is bad and then suggest Bobyguard.

2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

my real prize is the true and purest joy in gaming, getting to play

but seriously remember when everyone was freaking out about how the k-wing was bad? then six months later triple wardens and the age of Miranda began and you couldnt find one for less than 40 bucks on ebay.

How about the 3 months after the Tie:SF released, when everybody claimed it wasnt viable? then backdraft and quickdraw powned

or hillariously when rebels were supposed to be the "bad" faction that couldnt compete with OP imp aces and Scums bargain bin squad pricing? now its Miranda, Nym, wookies, rebel Fenn, vcx, Dash, etc all day... all OP.

the meta is wildly wrong a whole lot, and people just follow the herd until someone who actually makes lists wins a tournament with the new Jam.

Long story short, bodyguard is not only the best scum card, or the best card in X-wing, its the best thing to happen to our world since God made America and let the dragon of liberty ride free

K-Wings were bad until Sabine and the Cluster Mine buff. SF’s were terrible until LWF and the Defender nerf. Yes, the meta changes, doesn’t mean a card is good.

1 hour ago, Tbetts94 said:

K-Wings were bad until Sabine and the Cluster Mine buff. SF’s were terrible until LWF and the Defender nerf. Yes, the meta changes, doesn’t mean a card is good.

Dengaroo also existed before LWF came out. There was no way Quickdraw was surviving that with no Evade and only 2 green dice.

This thread got fun.

3 hours ago, Tbetts94 said:

SF’s were terrible until LWF and the Defender nerf.

I flew a Quickdraw/Backdraft/Omega Leader list through a 28 tournament game winning streak (including winning a Defender-heavy Store Championship) pre-LWF and during the height of the Defender's dominance. It seemed to do OK. :-D

6 hours ago, Tbetts94 said:

Can’t tell if serious. Say Fearlessness is bad and then suggest Bobyguard.

i am dead serious. Fenn wants PTL for the same reason Soontir wants PTL. a supporting ship with bodyguard just makes him better.

Fearlessness is a good card but its not good on Fenn

6 hours ago, Tbetts94 said:

K-Wings were bad until Sabine and the Cluster Mine buff. SF’s were terrible until LWF and the Defender nerf. Yes, the meta changes, doesn’t mean a card is good.

K-wings were always good. they sold out and got crazy before sabine was released. TLT miranda was never anything short of absurd.

SFs also made into into the meta before lightweight frame.

i agree both got better with more recent upgrades, but people were winning tournaments with k-wings before the ghost came out

THE RAU-PARADOX

So here is a problem I came up with: If you actually play Rau vs Fel, 1v1, with their optimal set up... what would Fenn Rau want with Initiative

Soontir Fel (PS 9)

• PTL
• Royal Guard TIE
• Autothrusters
• Stealth Device

total: 35 points

Versus

Fenn Rau (PS 9)

• Fearlessness
• Title
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

I mean: Rau costs 32 points over 35 points of Soontir. So Rau ultimately gets to decide in this situation

Rau wants to shoot first, because his joust could otherwise become his death, so then he takes initiative for himself.

BUT he wants to position last, even if it is only to make sure Soontir DOESNT position last. So in that case he wants to give the initiative away, so that he flies last.

And now you are in a vicious circle: Rau wants to joust/shoot first --> keep initiative --> but Rau wants to fly last --> give initiative away --> but Rau wants to shoot first --> you get the point...

This is very situation heavy, I get that, but what do you think?

Have I created a new paradox (I will call it the Rau-Paradox) or is there an end to this loop?

Does anyone have a strong opinion on this?

EDIT: before I get killed with fire, in my opinion this is the 'optimal' set-up for both... if you beg to differ, please do so politely

Even if that's the optimal setup for both, Fenn moves second. That way he denies Fel arcdodging potential, while retaining what little of his own he has, given he doesn't have PtL. They're both PS9, so who shoots first doesn't really matter. In fact, making Fel shoot first, if he used an action for reposition, gives him the potential dilemma of not having an offensive mod, if he wants to save his lone focus for defense. Plus, without PtL, Fenn's dial is completely open, and Fel moving first now has to proactively predict if Fenn is going to K-turn/T-roll.

Going first is bad for Soontir.

This is fun topic but I don’t understand why would you compare ptl Fel to non-ptl Fenn? Rau would still be 34pts and is only missing green 4 straight (which Rau really miss though).

In the situation you put above, Rau should give away initiative. Firing first doesn't have that big a value in this match up, so better to take away Fel's flexibility in repositioning.

I do think the Rau list is suboptimal.

So in several reactions I heard my Fenn list is "sub-optimal" can someone explain what would be considered optimal? Because I have been playing him like this, so maybe my Fenn experience could be cranked up

1 minute ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

So in several reactions I heard my Fenn list is "sub-optimal" can someone explain what would be considered optimal? Because I have been playing him like this, so maybe my Fenn experience could be cranked up

Generally people think PTL is better than Fearlessness. It allows more maneuverability and offense.