So, I recently picked up a Protectorate Starfighter and I started flying the heck out of it.

My first ship after the Core was an interceptor and an A-wing for the PTL upgrade

Now I find myself in an awkward spot: I do not know if I have just been very lucky with Fenn (and therefore I am wrongly biased) or if it is true: Fenn is better than Soontir..?

For 32 points you either have:

Soontir Fel (PS 9)

• PTL
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

or

Fenn Rau (PS 9)

• Fearlessness
• Title
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

With Rau you can actually get a potential 6 hits per attack at range one and 5 potential evade results at range 1 (in both cases provided you are in enemy arc)

With Fel you can do 2 actions and a free focus token, for stress. So you can focus + focus + evade or Barrel Roll + Boost + focus. (or any other combination of actions)

Fel has more Green maneuvers, Rau has the amazing Talon Roll.

I think that they so far are quite balanced in their own field but here is the deal: Rau can both Arc-dodge and Arc-Not-Dodge... It benefits him either way. Fel on the other hand is frankly F***ed if he doesnt quite dodge the arc...

That is why I think that Fenn is a better Soontir then Soontir.

Opinion? Yes.

Interessted in a discussion about this? Always

Let me know what you think!

Much better. Extra reds, the ability to TL, free evade...

Power creep in action.

Forward looking, but the X-Wing world is not at all prepared for how incredibly awesome Soontir + Optimized Prototype is going to be.

Given the fact that we are seeing fewer and fewer bombs around these days and more TLT I think I actually prefer Soontir over Fenn right now.

You need to try Fenn with attani mindlink instead of fearlessness, then he is even better and gets mods even if he bumps..

22 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Forward looking, but the X-Wing world is not at all prepared for how incredibly awesome Soontir + Optimized Prototype is going to be.

Given the fact that we are seeing fewer and fewer bombs around these days and more TLT I think I actually prefer Soontir over Fenn right now.

I'm sorry but why is Soontir better versus TLT, rather than Fenn?

40 minutes ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

5 potential evade results at range 3 (in both cases provided you are in enemy arc)

Sure? Range 3 should be 4. Range 1 may be 5 if in arc. At least in my book

3 minutes ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

I'm sorry but why is Soontir better versus TLT, rather than Fenn?

Typical build for Fenn is very aggressive. Yes, he has autothrusters and the title gives him an evade at range 1, but that's just to help him get in there and murder something.

Fel is more defensive in nature with his standard build. More green dice (stealth device as well as autothrusters), more tokens, more reliant at avoiding arcs entirely - even if it means sacrificing his own shot.

Just now, flooze said:

Sure? Range 3 should be 4. Range 1 may be 5 if in arc. At least in my book

You are absolutely right! Thanks for spotting the mistake, I will change the post.

Soontir with Optimized Protocol Condition and Palp in the list is far better than Fenn ever was or will be.

Just now, Tbetts94 said:

Soontir with Optimized Protocol Condition and Palp in the list is far better than Fenn ever was or will be.

Yes, but I am comparing them solo, not in a team/squad...

But thanks for your contribution, it has been noted

14 minutes ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

I'm sorry but why is Soontir better versus TLT, rather than Fenn?

4 Green Dice, Evade Action, Autothrusters, Pilot Ability to add a Focus.

The comparisons between Fel and Rau get complicated since the details of their styles are very different.

Rau is a sentient missile. His primary way of staying alive is by killing the enemy first. Without an evade token, he can't be as defensive as Fel.

Fel is the classic old school arc dodger, only sticking around for a fight if no one can shoot back at him. He could turtle up and be almost untouchable back in his hay day. Rau can't do that.

So, you have a brawler and a dancer. That's why I don't think Rau is a better Fel because he doesn't actually do what Fel does. Now whether Rau is better than Fel is a different question and I do think he is better in this meta. But Rau is not a better Fel than Fel.

13 minutes ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

I'm sorry but why is Soontir better versus TLT, rather than Fenn?

Evade action. Fel has a better defensive profile to Rau. Plus PTL Fel gets three actions a turn, meaning he can better reposition and still have mods or turtle up with evade and 2 focuses.

42 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Forward looking, but the X-Wing world is not at all prepared for how incredibly awesome Soontir + Optimized Prototype is going to be.

Given the fact that we are seeing fewer and fewer bombs around these days and more TLT I think I actually prefer Soontir over Fenn right now.

What if the last line of the Optimized Prototype text is the text from PTL? Then Soontir can take VI and do all his shenanigans at PS11!!!

(We can dream, can't we?)

4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

What if the last line of the Optimized Prototype text is the text from PTL? Then Soontir can take VI and do all his shenanigans at PS11!!!

(We can dream, can't we?)

He would still be worse than Dash.

But itd be a start.

Im personally holding out hope that Optimized Prototype gives the ship with Krennic the ability to Coordinate the ship with the condition.

*sarcasm

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Im personally holding out hope that Optimized Prototype gives the ship with Krennic the ability to Coordinate the ship with the condition.

*sarcasm

Wouldn't matter anyway. The Empire doesn't have any PS11 crew carriers.

19 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

The comparisons between Fel and Rau get complicated since the details of their styles are very different.

Rau is a sentient missile. His primary way of staying alive is by killing the enemy first. Without an evade token, he can't be as defensive as Fel.

Fel is the classic old school arc dodger, only sticking around for a fight if no one can shoot back at him. He could turtle up and be almost untouchable back in his hay day. Rau can't do that.

So, you have a brawler and a dancer. That's why I don't think Rau is a better Fel because he doesn't actually do what Fel does. Now whether Rau is better than Fel is a different question and I do think he is better in this meta. But Rau is not a better Fel than Fel.

Evade action. Fel has a better defensive profile to Rau. Plus PTL Fel gets three actions a turn, meaning he can better reposition and still have mods or turtle up with evade and 2 focuses.

3 actions? Are you counting the free focus from stressing as an action, or do you mean Fel somehow gets 3 actions of his choosing?

Others have pretty much said it already: Soontir is better at avoiding damage, Fenn is better at dishing out damage.

To be fair though, your 32 Soontir build is lacking. Since Imperial Veterans released, I’ve never actually seen Soontir at less than 34 points (PTL, Title, AT, Targeting Computer) and the vast majority of the time he’s at 35 (same as above but replace TC with Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade).

So in a 1on1 35 point matchup between Soontir and Fenn (say, with Expertise, title, Autothrusters), who would win?

easy: whoever won initiative. Soontir lives or dies (and Fenn as well to a slightly lesser extent) on being able to move after his opponent so he can arc dodge. So really, in a 1 on 1 Fenn would probably win, because he could afford to drop Expertise down to PTL, Fearlessness, mindlink, or something else and get an initiative bid. Soontir can’t afford to do that.

I think they are very similar, but Fenn Rau can be kitted out differently, whereas with Soontir, you'll be taking PTL and Autothrusters at the minimum. I do think that Soontir is better - generally - with his full token stack, but Fenn gives him a run for his money simply because his ability is very strong offensively and defensively. With only a focus on each, Fenn is better. You also have to catch Fenn Rau at Range 2 to really make him pay, whereas if you catch Soontir at Range 1-2 in arc, he'll be very sad.

In short:

Fenn has much better offense than Soontir and often better defense.

Soontir is a better PTL platform, but only because he has no other good options, unlike Fel. But, TIE mk. II Fel is a significantly better platform for PTL than Rau.

Soontir with his a Focus Evade or Focus x2 Evade is better defensively than Fel. But, Fenn offsets that advantage a bit from his ability, so I really think Soontir barely has an advantage here.

In my opinion, it's a bit of a wash.

1 hour ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

So, I recently picked up a Protectorate Starfighter and I started flying the heck out of it.

My first ship after the Core was an interceptor and an A-wing for the PTL upgrade

Now I find myself in an awkward spot: I do not know if I have just been very lucky with Fenn (and therefore I am wrongly biased) or if it is true: Fenn is better than Soontir..?

For 32 points you either have:

Soontir Fel (PS 9)

• PTL
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

or

Fenn Rau (PS 9)

• Fearlessness
• Title
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

With Rau you can actually get a potential 6 hits per attack at range one and 5 potential evade results at range 3 (in both cases provided you are in enemy arc)

With Fel you can do 2 actions and a free focus token, for stress. So you can focus + focus + evade or Barrel Roll + Boost + focus. (or any other combination of actions)

Fel has more Green maneuvers, Rau has the amazing Talon Roll.

I think that they so far are quite balanced in their own field but here is the deal: Rau can both Arc-dodge and Arc-Not-Dodge... It benefits him either way. Fel on the other hand is frankly F***ed if he doesnt quite dodge the arc...

That is why I think that Fenn is a better Soontir then Soontir.

Opinion? Yes.

Interessted in a discussion about this? Always

Let me know what you think!

Well, you're missing part the setup. Fel needs Title and Stealth Device.

Then he is better than Fen.

8 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Others have pretty much said it already: Soontir is better at avoiding damage, Fenn is better at dishing out damage.

To be fair though, your 32 Soontir build is lacking. Since Imperial Veterans released, I’ve never actually seen Soontir at less than 34 points (PTL, Title, AT, Targeting Computer) and the vast majority of the time he’s at 35 (same as above but replace TC with Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade).

So in a 1on1 35 point matchup between Soontir and Fenn (say, with Expertise, title, Autothrusters), who would win?

easy: whoever won initiative. Soontir lives or dies (and Fenn as well to a slightly lesser extent) on being able to move after his opponent so he can arc dodge. So really, in a 1 on 1 Fenn would probably win, because he could afford to drop Expertise down to PTL, Fearlessness, mindlink, or something else and get an initiative bid. Soontir can’t afford to do that.

I made it 32 points because that is the amount where they are both at the same cost AND at the minimum for their performance... If you make Soontir 33-36 points you might as well give him some torps and give him the oppurtunity do 7 potential damage once...

Furthermore Expertise isnt the best upgrade for Fenn anyway, because you lose the advantage of Fearlessness. (I think Expertise is overcosted/overrated anyway, but that is an discussion for another day/thread.

I also recognise and thank all people who pointed out that Soontir is more defensive and Fenn is more Offensive! I didnt take that into consideration obviously.

13 minutes ago, Yakostovian said:

3 actions? Are you counting the free focus from stressing as an action, or do you mean Fel somehow gets 3 actions of his choosing?

Counting the free focus. While it is not three choices, it is three actions.

1 hour ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

So, I recently picked up a Protectorate Starfighter and I started flying the heck out of it.

My first ship after the Core was an interceptor and an A-wing for the PTL upgrade

Now I find myself in an awkward spot: I do not know if I have just been very lucky with Fenn (and therefore I am wrongly biased) or if it is true: Fenn is better than Soontir..?

For 32 points you either have:

Soontir Fel (PS 9)

• PTL
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

or

Fenn Rau (PS 9)

• Fearlessness
• Title
• Autothrusters

total: 32 points

With Rau you can actually get a potential 6 hits per attack at range one and 5 potential evade results at range 3 (in both cases provided you are in enemy arc)

With Fel you can do 2 actions and a free focus token, for stress. So you can focus + focus + evade or Barrel Roll + Boost + focus. (or any other combination of actions)

Fel has more Green maneuvers, Rau has the amazing Talon Roll.

I think that they so far are quite balanced in their own field but here is the deal: Rau can both Arc-dodge and Arc-Not-Dodge... It benefits him either way. Fel on the other hand is frankly F***ed if he doesnt quite dodge the arc...

That is why I think that Fenn is a better Soontir then Soontir.

Opinion? Yes.

Interessted in a discussion about this? Always

Let me know what you think!

Fenn is even better on evading, as he can possibly get 6 evades at range 1. Fenns base agility(3) against a turret secondary (+1 from SD) in arc at range 1(+1from title) and Fenns ability of +1 in range 1 . its stupid

and youre correct, Fenn has a better dial and extra hull with access to 2 upgrades, fearlessness and title, which Fel does not.

Soontir can take stealth device and autothrusters together(with title) which is good, but cost more.

This is called power creep...yes.

12 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Fenn is even better on evading, as he can possibly get 6 evades at range 1. Fenns base agility(3) against a turret secondary (+1 from SD) in arc at range 1(+1from title) and Fenns ability of +1 in range 1 . its stupid

Not quite true. Fenn has the potential (small though it may be) of getting a higher number of evades, but that doesn’t mean his better at evading. How many times do you need SIX evades on one roll, even at range 1?

Almost never.

If your opponent rolls 3 hits then anything over 3 evades doesn’t matter.

But aside from that, Fenn’s defenses are much more luck based, and depend heavily on getting into that range-1 in-arc sweet spot. If you can’t pull that off then you’re at the mercy of the dice gods.

Soontir, with a consistent x2 focus tokens and evade token has a much more reliable defense. That’s what makes him more survivable.

27 minutes ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

I made it 32 points because that is the amount where they are both at the same cost AND at the minimum for their performance... If you make Soontir 33-36 points you might as well give him some torps and give him the oppurtunity do 7 potential damage once...

Furthermore Expertise isnt the best upgrade for Fenn anyway, because you lose the advantage of Fearlessness. (I think Expertise is overcosted/overrated anyway, but that is an discussion for another day/thread.

That was kind of my point: 32 points isn’t the optimal Soontir build, but Fenn can get by okay at that level. Soontir however needs those 3 extra points to get up to his full potential.

18 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Fenn is even better on evading, as he can possibly get 6 evades at range 1. Fenns base agility(3) against a turret secondary (+1 from SD) in arc at range 1(+1from title) and Fenns ability of +1 in range 1 . its stupid

and youre correct, Fenn has a better dial and extra hull with access to 2 upgrades, fearlessness and title, which Fel does not.

Soontir can take stealth device and autothrusters together(with title) which is good, but cost more.

Fenn is not better than Fel at evading. He can get 6 evades at range 1 if both ships are in arc. Sure. Fel will never be in that position unless a mistake has been made. Fel’s ability to generate 2 focus tokens + an evade bolstered by stealth device is a much better defensive package than Fenn Rau has available.

I’d also argue that the 4 forward green gives Fel the better dial if they’re both running ptl.

I’d always take PTL Fel over fearlessness Fenn, even in today’s meta.