The player says, "I'm going to use Move to slam four dudes against the wall."

Unfortunately, only rolls enough pips to slam two dudes against the wall. Can he slam two dudes against the wall, or is he unable to slam any dudes against anything?

He slams the people he rolls for. In the narrative system, it is far better to say "I'm going to use move to try to slam them into the wall", then narrate the actual action after the dice have been rolled.

Be vague before rolling, get specific after.

But those two dudes get slammed into the wall either way.

9 minutes ago, RLogue177 said:

The player says, "I'm going to use Move to slam four dudes against the wall."

Unfortunately, only rolls enough pips to slam two dudes against the wall. Can he slam two dudes against the wall, or is he unable to slam any dudes against anything?

This system is different in a lot of ways from previous RPGs, so if you're coming from a system like D&D/Pathfinder, or other more granular systems, it can take some getting used to.

The short answer to your question is "yes," you can still slam the two opponents he generated Force points to attack, he's not restricted to attacking all four, and doing nothing if he doesn't roll enough pips.

However, the long answer is that you're viewing the action incorrectly.

The action isn't: "I'm going to slam those four, specific baddies against the wall!" It's: "I'm going to attack with Move." The result of the Move attack is determined by the result of the combat check. Sure, the player may have a general intention of what he'll do if he gets enough of the correct symbols, but the specific actions the character takes isn't locked in until the roll is made and you can see what symbols are generated.

That's why you can attempt to throw four people and instead only throw two - your attempt wasn't to throw four people specifically (which you failed at), it was to throw people in general , which you succeeded at, but not to the degree that you wanted (two instead of four).

4 hours ago, RLogue177 said:

The player says, "I'm going to use Move to slam four dudes against the wall."

Unfortunately, only rolls enough pips to slam two dudes against the wall. Can he slam two dudes against the wall, or is he unable to slam any dudes against anything?

Most GMs that I've spoken and gamed with treat it more as "I'm going to use Move to do something to the bad guys" and then roll their Force dice to see how many pips they have to work with.

So in your example, unless the GM is being a prick, then the PC would be able to slam two dudes against a wall.

having run into this in the past, if I recall correctly using a power against a living thing generally takes a check on their part to see if it effects them. it's far more reliable to use an inanimate object against a NPC than to use a power directly against them.

18 minutes ago, ASCI Blue said:

having run into this in the past, if I recall correctly using a power against a living thing generally takes a check on their part to see if it effects them. it's far more reliable to use an inanimate object against a NPC than to use a power directly against them.

only "named" NPCs cget to resist. So minions and no name rivals can be tossed easily.

2 hours ago, ASCI Blue said:

having run into this in the past, if I recall correctly using a power against a living thing generally takes a check on their part to see if it effects them. it's far more reliable to use an inanimate object against a NPC than to use a power directly against them.

Yes and no.

For a number of offensive effects, you make what is typically a Discipline check against either a static difficulty (attacking via hurled object with Move or using Unleash) or as an opposed check (using Influence to change the target's emotional state or make them believe something untrue).

If there's no skill check required by default (such as using Harm to inflict wounds or Move to disarm a target), then there's the chance for the target to resist, provided (as Daeglan noted) said NPC is important enough, which typically only covers Nemesis and those Rivals to have a proper name as part of the adventure. Minions and lesser Rivals are pretty much SOL in terms of "resisting" Force powers that don't already require an opposed check.

Hmmm... If Move is used to disarm an opponent, does the person get some sort of check to resist it?

4 hours ago, RLogue177 said:

Hmmm... If Move is used to disarm an opponent, does the person get some sort of check to resist it?

yes, athletics or coordination (depending on the situation as GM calls) another Force user may also use discipline (somewhat like when obi and ani try to force push each other)

it is the exact example given in the example box about resisting force powers in the book.

This prevents every fight starting with "I use move and grab the bad guys Lightsaber" and then in return "The bad guy uses Move to get all you lightsabers" and so on.

That is the reason named rivals and every nemesis should get the chance to resit.

So the eays Force roll becomes a combined disciplin force check vs discipline/ athletics/ resilence/ coordination.

13 hours ago, RLogue177 said:

Hmmm... If Move is used to disarm an opponent, does the person get some sort of check to resist it?

By default, no.

If the target is a Nemesis or important Rival, then they can resist it with an opposed check. What skill the target uses is up to you, but Discipline and Athletics are popular choices.

If the target is a minion or an unimportant Rival, then they don't get to resist and are simply relieved of their weapons.

It's up to the GM if an entire minion group can be disarmed without needing the magnitude upgrade (since for combat purposes the minion group is treated as a single target) or if you need magnitude upgrades to disarm multiple minions at once. Personally, I lean towards needing the magnitude upgrades, but also rule that each disarmed minion in the group can't contribute to minion group skill checks if they don't have the appropriate weapon; for instance if my PC manages to disarm two of the four stormtroopers in a minion group, then when calculating that minion group's Ranged (Heavy) dice pool, I exclude the two disarmed minions since they're not wielding the appropriate weapon.

On 2/22/2018 at 12:13 PM, RLogue177 said:

The player says, "I'm going to use Move to slam four dudes against the wall."

Unfortunately, only rolls enough pips to slam two dudes against the wall. Can he slam two dudes against the wall, or is he unable to slam any dudes against anything?

It depends on if it's a group of Minions or four individual targets (Rivals/Nemesis/Inquisitor) and if you want to rule that any of the target's can resist.

If the target is a group of 4 Minions mechanically it's a single target and they generally can't resist (you can rule to if the situation warrants it) so it's a single Ranged Attack roll that does a total of 10 pts of damage (+1 for each Success) that effects the group. You only need enough pips to active a single target and you can then narrate it however you want: they all get slammed against the wall and one or more are killed/knocked out or two hang on to something or whatever sounds cool. Regardless the mechanical result should be the same. However if you want to count a group of four minions as four targets and potentially do more damage you'd use the Auto-Fire rule to build your Attack dice pool. So you'd add a difficulty for each additional target and you'd need to Succeed with the attack, have enough Advantages and Force Dice pips to activate each additional target. If you do then you get to add another 10+ Damage for each. The best way to do this would be to roll the Force Dice first to see how many additional targets you could throw then build the Attack dice pool.

If the targets are individuals (Rivals/Nemesis/Inquisitor(s)), then you'd again use the Auto-Fire rule as described above only this time you'd have to go for the hardest target to hit and activate the rest. If you have them resist, which you absolutely should if it's a Nemesis or Inquisitor, then you change the Ranged Attack roll to an Opposed Discipline roll against whatever Skill you think is appropriate. Usually you'd have them oppose with Athletics or Brawn, or in the case of a Force User their Discipline. Again the best way would be to roll the Force Dice first to see how many additional targets you could throw then build the Attack dice pool.

For me, the question depends. I don't let my players go so vague as to say "I attack with Move". They have to be more specific. "I throw the Stormtroopers into the wall." Then they can throw as many as their magnitude will allow. But they can't say "I throw stuff at the Troopers". They must declare what, and may fail if they don't hit the strength requirements. "I throw the X-Wing at the Stormtroopers" will be hard, but "I throw small rocks (Sil 0) at the Stormtroopers" could be one rock or many depending on the roll.

On 24/02/2018 at 8:34 AM, Edgookin said:

For me, the question depends. I don't let my players go so vague as to say "I attack with Move". They have to be more specific. "I throw the Stormtroopers into the wall." Then they can throw as many as their magnitude will allow. But they can't say "I throw stuff at the Troopers". They must declare what, and may fail if they don't hit the strength requirements. "I throw the X-Wing at the Stormtroopers" will be hard, but "I throw small rocks (Sil 0) at the Stormtroopers" could be one rock or many depending on the roll.

This, there needs to be some description of what’s happening to determine the difficulty of the check, multiple thrown objects needs the increase in difficulty, Silhouette of the thrown objects determines the difficulty, adversary and defence needs to be added to the check.

12 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

This, there needs to be some description of what’s happening to determine the difficulty of the check, multiple thrown objects needs the increase in difficulty, Silhouette of the thrown objects determines the difficulty, adversary and defence needs to be added to the check.

The difficulty is a ranged combat check, with range determining the difficulty using autofire rules for throwing at multiple targets. So you will have to increase the difficulty once if multiple targets are going to be on the table at all. 2 advantage to trigger a second hit, difficulty is a ranged check against the most difficult target increased once.

2 minutes ago, syrath said:

The difficulty is a ranged combat check, with range determining the difficulty using autofire rules for throwing at multiple targets. So you will have to increase the difficulty once if multiple targets are going to be on the table at all. 2 advantage to trigger a second hit, difficulty is a ranged check against the most difficult target increased once.

Except the difficulty is based on the Silhouette of the object rather than the usual rules for range

21 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Except the difficulty is based on the Silhouette of the object rather than the usual rules for range

thabks for the correction, im still not a fan of autofire in this and other situations, as a GM i prefer to increase the advantage to trigger to 3.

I don’t like the magnitude system for Move at all. Strength should be worded as you may lift a number of objects with a total Silhouette equal to strength upgrades activated, to a maximum of your ranks in Discipline. Then reduce the number of strength upgrades in the tree to 3.

So two strength upgrades activated lets you throw:

1 Silhouette 2 object

or

2 Silhouette 1 objects

or

A number of Silhouette 0 objects up to your ranks in Discipline.

sorry for the derail.

As far as the difficulty of attacking with Move goes, rather than the usual process of rolling the Force dice with the regular dice, I lean towards having the PC roll their Force dice first to determine what resources they have to create the effect, and then make the Discipline check.

Granted, with how the system works, it'd be fairly trivial to simply add in difficulty dice if the player is able to trigger Magnitude upgrades or Strength upgrades for a bigger object, or some combination of the two. The only place where it gets wonky is when Adversary (or other effects that upgrade the difficulty of combat checks) gets involved, since anything that upgrades more than once is going to have a more notable effect on the negative dice portion of the dice pool.

16 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

As far as the difficulty of attacking with Move goes, rather than the usual process of rolling the Force dice with the regular dice, I lean towards having the PC roll their Force dice first to determine what resources they have to create the effect, and then make the Discipline check.

Granted, with how the system works, it'd be fairly trivial to simply add in difficulty dice if the player is able to trigger Magnitude upgrades or Strength upgrades for a bigger object, or some combination of the two. The only place where it gets wonky is when Adversary (or other effects that upgrade the difficulty of combat checks) gets involved, since anything that upgrades more than once is going to have a more notable effect on the negative dice portion of the dice pool.

I think this is the safest route with powers or rolls where the target matters. If it doesnt matter roll them together