4 minutes ago, Stinger07 said:

The advantage is that you'd have to spread your damage with autoblaster and tlt. You couldn't do all of that damage to a single ship. Plus you are spending 2 extra points for the double turret. Given the size of the donuts, you have a larger potential for targets at range 2-3 than 1. But in the end it will also buff the phantom after it deploys. For a cost.

It does cost more points, but I just don't think it's a straight nerf. It opens up the option of running two different turrets, which has it's own complications. Dorsal Turret could also work, and Range 2 has double-coverage, although the damage output is lower than a TLT. However, there is no longer a safe range.

A straight nerf on Phantom of "you cannot modify your dice on this attack" would be better in my opinion. Or Small Ship Only for TLT (and a Miranda nerf). Using the Phantom to shoot the turret kinda works (particularly if it actually counts as the Phantom attacking, and thus couldn't use the Ghost crew), but it does provide new and potentially dangerous options.

make it so that you must use the Phantom's turret, and put a restriction on the title to make it turrets 5 points or less.

5 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

make it so that you must use the Phantom's turret, and put a restriction on the title to make it turrets 5 points or less.

This might be the best all around solution, or at least the part about specifying a cost threshold. If the title only allowed you to fire a turret in the end phase is that turret is X points or less, you can effectively future proof your design. Any future turret that would be fine fired once, but problematic fired twice, could just be bumped above the threshold.

2 hours ago, Stinger07 said:

I've been thinking quite a bit on the issue of 4 TLT shots coming from the Ghost with Phantom docked and I think there is a very simple fix.

What if instead of allowing the ghost to fire with it's equipped turret, it must fire with a turret that is equipped to the Phantom?

Essentially, if someone wants to make 4 fully modded TLT shots, they'll have to pay for a second TLT on the Phantom in addition to one on the Ghost.

Thoughts?

This is exactly how it should have been designed

45 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Let's make Miranda's ability Primary/Torpedo/Missile only to start, too.

Her ability should be primary only.

I have played the ghost a lot - the problem is tlt does four damage a turn - that's too much. All other turrets that cancel results do one - if u only do two - if that is not enough - use your firing arc and four dice primary. Right now tlts do as much damage as heavy laser cannons. The real problem is tlt. Tlt is lazy and no skill.

btw - I never put tlt on my ghosts (out of principle) and they do just fine. The difference is I actually have to try to outfly my opponents.

I'm not gonna lie. I've lost so many games recently I'm flying Lotha Fenn tonight and Saturdays' tournament so I can feel better lol

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

TLT: Small Ship Only

Uh, well, that's a band-aid approach to a single injury to the body.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Doesn't stop Miranda and Nym, and they're only a bit of meta flexing below top tier at the moment - and Miranda in particular will never stop being amazing with TLT.

Logic.

1 hour ago, Wiredin said:

give defensive range bonuses to all ships when being shot out of arc. does make auto-thrusters a lil crazy tho.

Another band-aid though applied to more injuries, but it still doesn't assist in healing the patient.

The game is based on flying little plastic spaceship designed to illustrate the Star Wars universe. Turrets in general and the TLT turret monster in particular are an interesting add-on to the game that is so very powerful and game warping they destroy the concept itself. I don't understand how this simple fact is so very foreign to so many players. Flying and turning and setting up shots and kill boxes while attempting to avoid your opponent from achieving the same IS the game. Turrets utterly destroy this; they are the adverse, the antagonist; they are completely antithetical, a contradiction to, even paradoxical to our game; completely antipodal, in a word, they are in their very essence the very counter to the very game itself when they exist as they are an dominate play...they should be a minor aside, nothing more.

TLT are fine and actually healthy for the game: they offer room to counterplay (r1 inability to shoot) and it's a check to both big ships and no autothrusters, high ps aces.

2 things are broken with Ghost Fenn: actionless attack modifiers (Ezra and Maul combo) and Fenn Rau.

Actionless modifiers that don't have real downsides or require setup are, generally speaking, a bad design and add an unneeded layer of inevitability. We have seen it in the past with x7, Palpatine and unhinged k4 Dengar. I don't have a real solution for Ezra and Maul but they shouldn't exist in their current form.

Fenn is an harder to catch Biggs thanks to his high ps pseudo repositioning ability thanks FAA. He can't even be ignored by ordnance carriers like Biggs used to be, in fact ordnance carriers are probably who suffer Fenn the most. He can also be more tankier than Biggs against most offenders.

IF Ghost Fenn will prove to stay as the current powerhouse it is (I would like to let strong stuff stays around a bit longer before crying for nerf. We had Parattanni for half a competitive season and palpatine for much longer. Don't jump the gun so fast, it's not Trajectory Simulator Nym level of overpowerness), those are the things to nerf, not TLT.

If you can't figure out how to beat a list with a huge 0 Agi target, you may need to rethink your strategy. A list like Kanan/Fenn is essentially on a timer: it deals a consistent amount of (un-aimed) damage every turn, true; however, both of its components are fairly trivial to destroy with focused fire.

The game was fine before the Sheathapede showed up, and eventually it will no longer be the flavor-of-the-month, regardless of whether it is nerfed.

29 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

TLT are fine and actually healthy for the game

I see the problem as TLT needing a nerf and not specifically the Ghost/Phantom. I remember seeing someone crunch the numbers on it and TLT does more damage than a 3-ATK turret no matter how many defense dice the opponent has.

Let that sink in...

And that doesn't even include the fact that it ignores range 3 defense bonus. It's almost as powerful as a 4-ATK turret. Straight up, it's too **** potent. It should either be limited to R2 so you actually have to work for getting people in arc OR it needs to be 2 red dice instead of 3. Even at only 2 dice thrown per shot, it's STILL equivalent to about a 3-ATK turret primary.

42 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Her ability should be primary only.

I'll say that might be correct, but would like to experiment with just eliminating turrets first. Part of what enables her Torp/Missile burst is the ease at which she can gain back the shields with TLTs, but if she has to essentially give up her entire attack to regenerate, it might be costly enough that it brings things into balance alone.

If I ran the FAQ, I'd nerf out the turret, and reevaluate after a few months.

FAQ

TLT: range 1-2

No nerfs needed, either you love em or you hate em.... no one says you have to use them....

3 hours ago, Stinger07 said:

I've been thinking quite a bit on the issue of 4 TLT shots coming from the Ghost with Phantom docked and I think there is a very simple fix.

What if instead of allowing the ghost to fire with it's equipped turret, it must fire with a turret that is equipped to the Phantom?

Essentially, if someone wants to make 4 fully modded TLT shots, they'll have to pay for a second TLT on the Phantom in addition to one on the Ghost.

Thoughts?

Edit: Formatting

It doesn’t need a nerf.

Don't bloody nerf. It killed Biggs!!! If you can't beat Ghost then you are playing horribly bad.

Also you can beat Fenn and Ghost at ease. Just kill Fenn first, then Ghost.

Git gut scrub.

TLT has been with the Ghost since release but it hasn't been a problem until now, obviously TLT is not the problem. Ghost only started dominating once it had access to PS 11 coordinate boost, that is your most likely culprit. That maneuver removes a lot of the counter-play that was integral to beating the list in the past, which was to fly into the Ghost's side arcs at range 1. Now that's impossible because Fenn can boost the Ghost at PS 11 and give it a range 1 rear arc shot that it shouldn't have had.

4 hours ago, Stinger07 said:

...

Thoughts?

...

Nerf Off

15 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

TLT has been with the Ghost since release but it hasn't been a problem until now, obviously TLT is not the problem. Ghost only started dominating once it had access to PS 11 coordinate boost, that is your most likely culprit. That maneuver removes a lot of the counter-play that was integral to beating the list in the past, which was to fly into the Ghost's side arcs at range 1. Now that's impossible because Fenn can boost the Ghost at PS 11 and give it a range 1 rear arc shot that it shouldn't have had.

Not true - when it was first released it only did 3 tlt attacks - it didn’t become an issue until the fourth stack was added

21 minutes ago, freakyg3 said:

Not true - when it was first released it only did 3 tlt attacks - it didn’t become an issue until the fourth stack was added

That was a pretty short time frame, and it doesn't change my point that we've had 4x TLT Ghost for a while now but it wasn't dominating the meta like this until the Sheathipeade released.

3 hours ago, rhs2042 said:

If you can't figure out how to beat a list with a huge 0 Agi target, you may need to rethink your strategy. A list like Kanan/Fenn is essentially on a timer: it deals a consistent amount of (un-aimed) damage every turn, true; however, both of its components are fairly trivial to destroy with focused fire.

The game was fine before the Sheathapede showed up, and eventually it will no longer be the flavor-of-the-month, regardless of whether it is nerfed.

Just out of curiosity, have you played/played against Ghost/Fenn (any variant, not just Kanan/Fenn)? Depending on the build, it's a lot tankier than 0 Agility might lead you to believe. Don't forget, the Ghost has an Evade action, often has Sensor Jammer, Fenn has Hotshot Copilot and his ability. I've seen a Ghost get shot by three attacks in a turn and suffer a single damage.

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Doesn't stop Miranda and Nym, and they're only a bit of meta flexing below top tier at the moment - and Miranda in particular will never stop being amazing with TLT.

The title of this thread says nothing about Nym or Miranda.

No but Nym/Miranda is evidence that the problem with ghost/phantom is TLT.

If we're discussing fixes for problems, I'd rather discuss fixing the whole problme rather than just bandaiding the current flavour of the month.