I've been thinking quite a bit on the issue of 4 TLT shots coming from the Ghost with Phantom docked and I think there is a very simple fix.
What if instead of allowing the ghost to fire with it's equipped turret, it must fire with a turret that is equipped to the Phantom?
Essentially, if someone wants to make 4 fully modded TLT shots, they'll have to pay for a second TLT on the Phantom in addition to one on the Ghost.
Thoughts?
Edit: Formatting
Edited by Stinger07I mean, yeah, it would definitely help, but honestly, I think at this point they're better off tackling TLT directly. Ghost Fenn would be much less scary if TLT didn't do as much damage. It would also tone down lists like Nym Miranda etc. And while that might bring back fat defensive turrets, I feel like lists like 4 Wookiees can serve in the deterrent role 4 TLTs used to serve almost as well. Dash might be a problem, but frankly he's always been a problem, and there's so mich high PS around these days that I feel like Dash can be dealt with.
Personally, I'd like to see them insert "if this attack does not hit" before "perform this attack twice", so that TLT becomes more like a gunner effect, but there are plenty of ways to do it.
Edited by MacchuWAkill it with 4x B-wings with FCS
As for nerfing TLT, I'm a big fan of adding a defense die at range 3, as to give high agi ships some advantage vs lower agility ships which can usually tank the damage better. But I understand the thought behind preventing it from making a second attack. 4 damage per turn can really hurt a lot of different ships very quickly.
Personally? Maybe Nerf both the TALK directly and the quad tlt shots. I'm not opposed...
TLT: Small Ship Only
4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:TLT: Small Ship Only
Doesn't stop Miranda and Nym, and they're only a bit of meta flexing below top tier at the moment - and Miranda in particular will never stop being amazing with TLT.
give defensive range bonuses to all ships when being shot out of arc. does make auto-thrusters a lil crazy tho.
I think just dropping the whole secondary weapon's don't give extra Defense die bit from turrets as it would literally only affect TLTs and would help all sorts of ships.
Edited by GILLIES291My favorite is Hits count only and(or) no modifying of dice.
2 hours ago, Cusm said:My favorite is Hits count only and(or) no modifying of dice.
No modifying dice I can get behind, but crits are hits, and all dice are cancelled at the end anyway.
TLT is just under-priced. Requiring the Ghost to use the Phantom's equipped turret is a little bit better, if you ask me.
Edited by YakostovianJust now, Yakostovian said:No modifying dice I can get behind, but crits are hits, and all dice are cancelled at the end anyway.
TLT is just under-costed. Requiring the Ghost to use the Phantom's equipped turret is a little bit better, if you ask me.
But that does nothing for the other ships that make TLT meta and TLT the only secondary turret in the game.
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:Doesn't stop Miranda and Nym, and they're only a bit of meta flexing below top tier at the moment - and Miranda in particular will never stop being amazing with TLT.
Pair it with a Miranda errata to her ability acting on primary only and I am in. The clarification that dropping and launching are different was enough to make Nym bearable [for me].
4 minutes ago, Cusm said:My favorite is Hits count only and(or) no modifying of dice.
I like this, how would this go with Accuracy Corrector?
3 minutes ago, Cusm said:But that does nothing for the other ships that make TLT meta and TLT the only secondary turret in the game.
Twin laser turret is definitely busted, but most of the ships that use it are also broken. Fix Miranda's ability, and TLT is no longer an issue. Fix the Ghost title, and TLT is no longer an issue. Significantly nerf TLT, and a lot of ships become less viable, including ships that don't need a nerf (TIE Aggressor, non-Miranda K-Wings, HWKs, Y-Wings, Non-Nym Scurggs)
5 minutes ago, Yakostovian said:Twin laser turret is definitely busted, but most of the ships that use it are also broken. Fix Miranda's ability, and TLT is no longer an issue. Fix the Ghost title, and TLT is no longer an issue. Significantly nerf TLT, and a lot of ships become less viable, including ships that don't need a nerf (TIE Aggressor, non-Miranda K-Wings, HWKs, Y-Wings, Non-Nym Scurggs)
Does my proposed ghost Nerf enough? Is 6 points a big enough cost for the quad tlt? Or does it need more?
As the the usual Miranda Nerf, I like that idea as well.
Oh, and while we are nerfing/de-nerfing things, blaster turret shouldn't have to spend the token.
Edited by Stinger0710 minutes ago, Stinger07 said:Does my proposed ghost Nerf enough? Is 6 points a big enough cost for the quad tlt? Or does it need more?
As the the usual Miranda Nerf, I like that idea as well.
Oh, and while we are nerfing/de-nerfing things, blaster turret shouldn't have to spend the token.
My apologies for not commenting on the initial question. I am definitely intrigued, and I like the flavor of it; but, I don't know if it 'NEEDED'.
Edited by AT Leader1 minute ago, Yakostovian said:Twin laser turret is definitely busted, but most of the ships that use it are also broken. Fix Miranda's ability, and TLT is no longer an issue. Fix the Ghost title, and TLT is no longer an issue. Significantly nerf TLT, and a lot of ships become less viable, including ships that don't need a nerf (TIE Aggressor, non-Miranda K-Wings, HWKs, Y-Wings, Non-Nym Scurggs)
That is true, but will they errata 3-5 ships or one little upgrade. It would not be the first time FFG hurt other ships in order to curve another one. Something needs to be done with these ships and this upgrade, preferably both. Even if you errata the ships and made TLT no mods, this would not destroy TLT for the other ships, but it would not be auto-include on everything.
You let the Phantom use a different turret and the second shot with the Ghost is from that one or must they be the same type of turret?
The ghost has been out for 2+ years now. It really hasn't been a problem for most of that time (and really isn't a problem today either imo). Heck, half way through its life it got a buff to the docked phantom, and it still wasn't a problem. Kanan/Biggs was a thing, and I made sure to play the **** out of it, but it wasn't a top tier list (even if I believed it was the best list out there for the meta at the time). And now Kanan/Fenn is a thing (which kinda pisses me off because its the natural evolution of my list, but I'm never one to play mainstream meta things, so I'm torn, but that's a personal problem =P). But it's far from the only dominant list out there.
If its showing up all over for you and wrecking face, then I suggest taking some steps to beat it, starting with list building. Anything with Autothrusters wrecks it, especially if you can get it into end game. Even good old x7 defenders does it in rather well. If the concern is Fenn to begin with, then I'm going to point out that he's a worse Biggs. If he's using his action to coordinate, that means he has 0 defensive stuff, 1 fewer shields (via lack of IA), and a more restrictive dial (via greens only). Biggs dies in 2 rounds, Fenn should die in 1.5. Then your auto thrusting barrel roll boosting menaces will just laugh at the Ghost as it stays in the donut hole the entire time. Or take Kylo for the easy blinding for 2 rounds. Sure, you still get the end of combat TLT shot, but without the first shot (which really wants to be the primary weapon shot), the end phase one is pathetic - you haven't been able to strip tokens yet to make it do anything. And even if it's going against the 1agi things out there and doing 2 damage... you have 70+ points doing 2 damage a turn, that's AWFUL.
Pretty much don't take Miranda/Nym and expect to beat the Ghost. You won't. It has more health and firepower than you do, so it will outlast you. It's almost like it's the rock to your scissor, but no one wants to play those paper arc dodgers because Miranda/Nym cuts them up with those bombs. Huh... Who'da thunk?
Edited by Khyros1 hour ago, Stinger07 said:I've been thinking quite a bit on the issue of 4 TLT shots coming from the Ghost with Phantom docked and I think there is a very simple fix.
What if instead of allowing the ghost to fire with it's equipped turret, it must fire with a turret that is equipped to the Phantom?
Essentially, if someone wants to make 4 fully modded TLT shots, they'll have to pay for a second TLT on the Phantom in addition to one on the Ghost.
Thoughts?
I don't think it'd be a good nerf. Basically, if this went through and I was flying a Ghost, I'm putting TLT on the Phantom, and Autoblaster Turret on the Ghost. Attempt to rely on my primary weapon in the combat phase (with a coordinated boost at PS 11? Not too bad...), cover the donut hole with ABT, and have the TLT shots in the end phase.
Edited by theBitterFig1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:Doesn't stop Miranda and Nym, and they're only a bit of meta flexing below top tier at the moment - and Miranda in particular will never stop being amazing with TLT.
Let's make Miranda's ability Primary/Torpedo/Missile only to start, too.
2 minutes ago, Cusm said:That is true, but will they errata 3-5 ships or one little upgrade. It would not be the first time FFG hurt other ships in order to curve another one. Something needs to be done with these ships and this upgrade, preferably both. Even if you errata the ships and made TLT no mods, this would not destroy TLT for the other ships, but it would not be auto-include on everything.
You let the Phantom use a different turret and the second shot with the Ghost is from that one or must they be the same type of turret?
I'm not disagreeing with you on past actions of FFG, but I am saying it is more important to nerf the single abused ships that are abusing the upgrade than it is to nerf the abused upgrade. I also partially disagree with how you think the nerf to TLT should work; crits should remain hits. One thing that might work to fix Nymiranda is to make TLT unique, but I'm not sure I support that either, because if you have the points, then the Ghost and the Phantom should be able to equip the same turret.
And Blaster Turret definitely needs a buff. Either a cost reduction (0? 1? 2?) or remove the spending of the token.
8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:I don't think it'd be a good nerf. Basically, if this went through and I was flying a Ghost, I'm putting TLT on the Phantom, and Autoblaster Turret on the Ghost. Attempt to rely on my primary weapon in the combat phase (with a coordinated boost at PS 11? Not too bad...), cover the donut hole with ABT, and have the TLT shots in the end phase.
The advantage is that you'd have to spread your damage with autoblaster and tlt. You couldn't do all of that damage to a single ship. Plus you are spending 2 extra points for the double turret. Given the size of the donuts, you have a larger potential for targets at range 2-3 than 1. But in the end it will also buff the phantom after it deploys. For a cost.
13 minutes ago, Yakostovian said:I'm not disagreeing with you on past actions of FFG, but I am saying it is more important to nerf the single abused ships that are abusing the upgrade than it is to nerf the abused upgrade. I also partially disagree with how you think the nerf to TLT should work; crits should remain hits. One thing that might work to fix Nymiranda is to make TLT unique, but I'm not sure I support that either, because if you have the points, then the Ghost and the Phantom should be able to equip the same turret.
And Blaster Turret definitely needs a buff. Either a cost reduction (0? 1? 2?) or remove the spending of the token.
I would go with a simple don't spend the token. That way you can keep the cost the same (ffg doesn't like adjusting costs).
Edited by Stinger07I think a better "nerf" for Ghost Fenn is to change the Maul stress removal to "If your attack hits, you may remove one stress when the end-phase is over" .
4 minutes ago, Stinger07 said:I got on a simple don't spend the token. That way you can keep the cost the same (ffg doesn't like adjusting costs).
That may be the case, but considering that synced turret is definitely better than blaster turret for the same cost, and Synced Turret+Deadeye is 1 point more for an even better version means that Blaster Turret is WAY over-priced.
Removing Focus entirely would be a step in the right direction for Blaster Turret.
14 minutes ago, Yakostovian said:I'm not disagreeing with you on past actions of FFG, but I am saying it is more important to nerf the single abused ships that are abusing the upgrade than it is to nerf the abused upgrade. I also partially disagree with how you think the nerf to TLT should work; crits should remain hits. One thing that might work to fix Nymiranda is to make TLT unique, but I'm not sure I support that either, because if you have the points, then the Ghost and the Phantom should be able to equip the same turret.
And Blaster Turret definitely needs a buff. Either a cost reduction (0? 1? 2?) or remove the spending of the token.
My (borrowed) suggestion is one I like with both or either, why I put and/or. I love TLT on my Ys and other non Ghost, Miranda ships, but it does need tweeked along with the problem ships/pilots. I always think K.I.S.S is the best course of action, something FFG does not always do, and I am sure they will make TLT unplayable while Nym/Miranda go unscathed asides the TLT. I think the Emporer is prime example of not going KISS, they should have made him range 3 and he would still be awesome, but in the fray and an easier target.