On 3/3/2018 at 7:48 AM, kempy said:

Which case is therefore more pathetic?

Well if L5R is Vietnam then I suppose AEG is France and FFG is America. So that would make AEG more pathetic.

On 3/3/2018 at 9:59 AM, maniacmcgoo said:

I played Ivory for about 6 months before my playgroup called it quits. I never had to wait an hour without anyone there. I had to wait because we would sometimes have an odd number of players and well, Ivory was slooow.

Alright so you lasted a bit longer than I thought before giving up in the face of adversity. But the only difference between then and now is that you haven't abandoned the hobby yet. Considering that open launch was in November and your past performance, you've got until the end of April.

Personally, I don’t think it’s pathetic to be discouraged or disappointed. It happens to all of us, even if we have different thresholds. But neither do I think the game is dead. I’ve seen it wax and wane so many times over the years, and so many players come and go, that much of the chatter is just noise. (Why do I read it then, or bother replying? That’s probably something to discuss with my therapist ?).

However, I don’t think we get anywhere as a community by being dismissive. If people are frustrated, yeah, I get that. I’m not myself, but I have friends to play with on a regular basis, and the game is still fresh and fun.

Some folks have made good suggestions relating to online alternatives, casual alternatives, and the occasional reality check. If I was feeling jaded, I’d probably try some of them. Or just step back and focus on other life stuff for a while, which I do regularly.

6 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Well if L5R is Vietnam then I suppose AEG is France and FFG is America. So that would make AEG more pathetic.

This is easily one of the most absurd comparisions i've readed for a long time now.

4 hours ago, kempy said:

This is easily one of the most absurd comparisions i've readed for a long time now.

It's not even a proper comparison, it's crazy stuff crazy people do say.

2 hours ago, Bunsenbrenner said:

It's not even a proper comparison, it's crazy stuff crazy people do say.

It's not crazy. It's a completely valid analogy.

You've got one group engaged in an endeavor that ultimately fails and abandons it. Then a second group comes along and assumes responsibility for it.

I could just as easily said L5R is North Africa, AEG is Italy, and FFG is Germany.

Or, if you want one where the endeavor was ultimately successful, L5R is the Panama Canal, AEG is France, and FFG is America.

49 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

You've got one group engaged in an endeavor that ultimately fails and abandons it. Then a second group comes along and assumes responsibility for it.

Tell me about your definition of "ultimate fail". Because seems you're just ignoring what actually happened (as business decision).

Because for me, as you consider facts (L5R CCG develop status in sugust/september 2015, changing AEG's profile as a firm for few years back, post-sell Zinser's comments) whole situation is much more similiar to selling Lucasfilm to Disney than some absurd geopolitical histories. There's also a secret we will never know, that could explain a lot - amount of money FFG paid for IP.

Also in your answer don't forget about visible sine wave of L5R CCG popularity (2000? Late Lotus? Late Emperor?) also what happened to L5R as a brand back in 1997. Selling it to WotC was also "ultimate fail"?

I think there's a little translation error here, Kempy: 'ultimately fails', in this context, means 'eventually it failed', not 'the biggest fail ever'.

And what criteria does it have to fit to be considered a "fail"? It has to "beat Magic the Gathering"? Observation I personally have is FFG is competing with itself for my money: I stopped purchasing Star Wars Destiny because of L5R. I chose L5R over continuing to purchase Arkham Horror LCG also. So is this a success for L5R but a fail for FFG? My FLGS knows if it's L5R related, pre-order it for me, until further notice.

3 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

It's not crazy. It's a completely valid analogy.

You've got one group engaged in an endeavor that ultimately fails and abandons it. Then a second group comes along and assumes responsibility for it.

I hope for FFG and L5R that your analogy won't be totally correct, because at the end, America ultimately failed too, after lots of lies, casualties and wasted years.

4 hours ago, HirumaShigure said:

And what criteria does it have to fit to be considered a "fail"? It has to "beat Magic the Gathering"? Observation I personally have is FFG is competing with itself for my money: I stopped purchasing Star Wars Destiny because of L5R. I chose L5R over continuing to purchase Arkham Horror LCG also. So is this a success for L5R but a fail for FFG? My FLGS knows if it's L5R related, pre-order it for me, until further notice.

In the comercial point of view as long as you are giving they your money It can be considered a sucess. ALL games have a life cycle, they invest in famous franchises like GOT and SW cause people have a relashionship with this brands, and this means sells. They didnt taken a bet on L5R, they knew that in the moment they launch the LCG hundreds of people around the world Will buy It, and they are doing a great job until now, the game is great, the fictions are good, the launch of Phoenix book with promos is so cool, If they launch a video game of l5r I would buy It anyway, I can be wrong but I think theres more people like me than "gameplay analizers" that Will leave the game in the moment they think It is not good/balanced enought or cause theres another cool card game people are playing.

58 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

In the comercial point of view as long as you are giving they your money It can be considered a sucess.

That's not true though, is it - from a commercial perspective, your profit needs to outweigh your costs. Even when you're managing that, you'd be extremely naive to think that Fantasy Flight (and possibly more importantly Asmodee) would think "well, we made 1 dollar more than we spent. Success!". This is especially important when the go-to response on here for collapsing gaming groups seems to be "just go online and play" - a format which FFG potentially doesn't profit at all from. If I were of the mind, I could just stop buying their cards and play online forever, for free. I suspect a lot of people who play online also buy the cards, but continually pushing people out of meatworld into the non-affiliated digital world of your choice platform isn't actually going to help the game at all.

I have absolutely no idea about the current financial health of the game - likely none of us here do - but what we do have are posters coming on here and reporting that their groups are getting bored with the game in it's current state. That's a problem and no number of asinine analogies with Vietnam are going to make that better for the people who see their groups drifting.

Then, away from your comment into general thoughts: -

The 6-in-6 was a great idea from where I'm sitting - big influx of cards at the beginning to really help the pool out is much appreciated - they correctly noted that slow updates has a corrosive effect on the community. We've watered down that acid, but it's still there, it just started it's cycle in December rather than immediately after the game was released. People would feel a lot happier if there was some sort of clue as to what was coming on the horizon for the game generally rather than the Phoenix Clan. We all know stuff will be coming, sure, but to push back at people eager for information with what amounts to accusations of entitlement is ridiculous; Fantasy Flight are selling an on-going, living card game which means they need to keep people engaged and help foster a sense of community in the player base. Or at least they ought to.

It feels as though they made the right business call back at the launch, but didn't think any further than that - basically just kicked the can down the road.

I suppose my view is shaped by the fact that I don't really feel anything towards Fantasy Flight as a publisher, or any particular corporation for that matter. They're not my mate, they're just a bunch of guys who want my money in exchange for stuff I enjoy playing. I'm not really bothered by online as I prefer card games face to face, but the fact of the matter is that my friends and I were pretty hyped about L5R for the longest period - now when I'm walking back from stuff we don't discuss it at all, because we've talking about everything we're going to, likely more than once. Sure, interest will pick up when stuff comes out I guess, but critically, if we psychologically move on to other stuff there's a chance that we won't.

I'm not expecting packs tomorrow - I'm not expecting a complete sheet of spoilers for the whole cycle - but it would be good to have something. No news has been published for close to a month. This forum is moribund, as is CardgameDB. Reddit isn't great either. If people are saying they're groups are losing interest and opponents are thin on the ground, then that should be a warning sign that something isn't right - and failing that, you should have a little empathy for people who aren't able to play a game that they (and you) enjoy face to face if that's their preference.

11 hours ago, KerenRhys said:

I hope for FFG and L5R that your analogy won't be totally correct, because at the end, America ultimately failed too, after lots of lies, casualties and wasted years.

Well we're less than half a year into the open release so I think it's a bit early to be declaring success or failure.

12 hours ago, HirumaShigure said:

And what criteria does it have to fit to be considered a "fail"? It has to "beat Magic the Gathering"? Observation I personally have is FFG is competing with itself for my money: I stopped purchasing Star Wars Destiny because of L5R. I chose L5R over continuing to purchase Arkham Horror LCG also. So is this a success for L5R but a fail for FFG? My FLGS knows if it's L5R related, pre-order it for me, until further notice.

I was working under the premise that that the objective was to create an economically viable version of L5R. Which obviously AEG couldn't or they wouldn't have sold the IP.

7 hours ago, Ersatz Nihilist said:

That's not true though, is it - from a commercial perspective, your profit needs to outweigh your costs. Even when you're managing that, you'd be extremely naive to think that Fantasy Flight (and possibly more importantly Asmodee) would think "well, we made 1 dollar more than we spent. Success!".

Technically in a company with multiple product lines you can have one of them operating at a loss as long as it's covering it's variable costs and a portion of fixed costs. L5R actually has an advantage over most of FFG's other games in that regard since FFG owns it outright and don't have to worry about the licencing fees stuff like Star Wars and AGoT has.

15 hours ago, kempy said:

situation is much more similiar to selling Lucasfilm to Disney

For that to work either Lucasflim would have needed to stay independent and just sell off the Star Wars IP or FFG would have needed to acquire AEG as a subsidiary. Regardless I still think the selling company looks worse in that exchange.

7 hours ago, Ersatz Nihilist said:

If people are saying they're groups are losing interest and opponents are thin on the ground, then that should be a warning sign that something isn't right - and failing that, you should have a little empathy for people who aren't able to play a game that they (and you) enjoy face to face if that's their preference

Getting back on the original topic, with Ivory and 20F combined there was a two year period when the only games of L5R I got to play were the ones I got during Koteis and practice games against myself. Yet I never complained and persevered for love of the hobby. So no I don't have much sympathy in this regard.

but continually pushing people out of meatworld into the non-affiliated digital world of your choice platform isn't actually going to help the game at all.

Do you know how many players dont have a play group? Do you know how many players drop when their play group disappears and they are the only player who plays the game in question? Do you know that the only thing in these circumstances that can retain a player is going online where you can still play and enjoy the game? If these players go online and carry on playing then it helps the game...

If you knew any of these things then you would realise that a large portion of games still exist BECAUSE players without playgroups can still play the game they love online. But please carry on letting your own preconceptions colour your invalid view of the world.

Unless you are playing a game like magic or perhaps pokemon and sometimes only in a major city there is no magical playgroup wand that means that if you want to play game A then gaming group B exists for them to play with and 'online is taking them away from that. And no 'they should form their own playgroup' is not a valid response.

Sure I know all that. If people like playing online that’s fine. Hurray!

But the point of the thread is that real-life groups are breaking down and losing interest. Playing online isn’t going to fix that problem, which is the point of the thread.

you might also want to reel in the condescending tone. It’s clear that online play is very important to you, but perhaps you should understand that your solution isn’t the solution that everyone wants.

13 hours ago, Ersatz Nihilist said:

That's not true though, is it - from a commercial perspective, your profit needs to outweigh your costs. Even when you're managing that, you'd be extremely naive to think that Fantasy Flight (and possibly more importantly Asmodee) would think "well, we made 1 dollar more than we spent. Success!". This is especially important when the go-to response on here for collapsing gaming groups seems to be "just go online and play" - a format which FFG potentially doesn't profit at all from. If I were of the mind, I could just stop buying their cards and play online forever, for free. I suspect a lot of people who play online also buy the cards, but continually pushing people out of meatworld into the non-affiliated digital world of your choice platform isn't actually going to help the game at all.

I have absolutely no idea about the current financial health of the game - likely none of us here do - but what we do have are posters coming on here and reporting that their groups are getting bored with the game in it's current state. That's a problem and no number of asinine analogies with Vietnam are going to make that better for the people who see their groups drifting.

I have no idea about their financial health either, but I believe it is fine, and my point was, L5R is a brand with value, I dont know how much will cost the Phoenix story book, but for sure many people will buy it, and I think the european koteis give us a clue that the new game is selling well. Another example, in my country the game is being sold in a subscription model, where you sign a contract and will receive everything that will be released in 12 months. We do not even know what we will receive for sure, only that it will include 2 cycles of expansions and 2 deluxe expansions. Even though it is a blind purchase and here the value of the game is much higher (compared to average income), the game is selling well.

I'm not saying they can do whatever they want people will continue to buy, of course the game needs to be fun and balanced to grow, but there is a solid base of players who is passionate about the game and so the casual players that come and go dont worry me much, I believe they are doing a good job and this loss of interest is more linked to an early exhaustion by playing too much online and an excess of anxiety for new releases, even if we knew this gap was necessary after the 6 in 6.

But here's my support: FFG PLEASE DROP SOME SPOILERS TO RELIEVE OUR STRESS !!! (and don't come with phoenix pack, we want to see the future =)

20 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

But here's my support: FFG PLEASE DROP SOME SPOILERS TO RELIEVE OUR STRESS !!! (and don't come with phoenix pack, we want to see the future =)

This.

I just miss reading about and discussing the game all the time. I wish they'd give us something to chew on.

It's worth noting that the GAMA trade show is March 12th to 16th - I would be amazed if we didn't get some information from that.

On 02/03/2018 at 11:35 AM, Ignithas said:

The prices at the Special Event (Stronghold Showdown) look comparable to the prices from a Store Championship, but instead of a nice looking plaque you get a honor dial. The stuff for the dynasty league seems like a serious upgrade to the quartal kits. The Battle for the Stronghold isn't comparable to anything (probably to one quartal kit, but with more resell value). The Launch kit from the Phoenix expansion seems to be half a Store Championship. The Koteis are comparable to Nationals.

It's really hard to compare the things, because we don't know how often we will get launch or special Events. If we get a launch event ~half a year and every year a special event, things look pretty good supported, especially if you consider that there are fewer regionals than other events.

The only thing that I don't like is the lack of trophys at local tournaments.

Just picking up on this (although I realise the conversation thread has kind of moved on). Actually your clarification is helpful as I hadn’t realised that the Stronghold Showdown was a separate special event from the other stuff (the events all have similar-sounding names, confusing to me at least).

Actually i’ve just seen a new thread where someone mentions that the Season 1 kits haven’t shipped from the US yet, but which may explain the relative radio silence over here...

...and new spoilers have appeared at last for the Phoenix Clan pack too.

Regroup, everyone: The game is still alive in the ‘meat’ world!

http://thelotuspavilion.com/sitestats

On 6.3.2018 at 9:01 PM, kempy said:

http://thelotuspavilion.com/sitestats

Well, ouch. Thanks for clearing that up, i prefer facts to opinion, and this is the best we got so far.

It's quite simple, there are two reasons why L5R is on a downward spiral (currently): A very weak Organized Play program and bad product management.

As a long time LCG player I can safely say about FFG, they don't like to invest in their player base and don't want to do anything to help building an offline community because ultimately they don't trust the longevity of their own product. They also still don't know how to get the release schedule right, and I'm not talking about those vague announcements for their upcoming products and probable delays (as usual because their logistics suck too), I'm talking about the way their products enter the meta. It's super unhealthy for a competitive game and ultimately for the community if you drip release stuff that imbalances the game instantly. 6 packs 6 weeks was a very very small step in the right direction but they should actually adapt from their well established competition and release product for every faction on the same date every 4 months to have a stable meta environment for a solid period of time.

My play group has also dissolved for this game, though to be fair, I haven't been very aggressive in keeping the game alive myself.

For me, the weak counter-play tore me out of the experience. Counter-spell continues to be a terrible mechanic engagement wise and this game seems to love its counter-spell. I will acknowledge that this could be sour grapes due to my playgroup all gravitating towards Scorpion, which is one of the most anti-fun clans to play against in this game (a trait shared with control decks in general in games where counter-play isn't considered).

I suppose I could go online, but for me, it's not the same. The online scene seems too disconnected for a card game. I might as well just play something that could only exist in the digital space.

The online competitive community is all on Discord. It mostly centers around the Discord Leagues.

The OP support for this game announced so far is more than they have ever done for any game in their catalogue. So.... yeah they can always do more, but to say they aren't trying or don't care seems extremely misinformed. If they didn't care they certainly wouldn't be pumping so much into this property by hiring a story team, releasing novels, doing an RPG Beta, supporting the Hatamoto system, running Kotei events as tons of major venues... Everything I see suggests they care deeply about L5R as a brand.

I do think not launching the Stronghold kits right after the new year was a mistake. If they knew they were going to take a break from releasing product they should have filled the gap with the OP kits. I'm sure there was some logistical reason that didn't happen, but it still seems like a misstep when trying to maintain momentum.

19 hours ago, Lysamus said:

My play group has also dissolved for this game, though to be fair, I haven't been very aggressive in keeping the game alive myself.

For me, the weak counter-play tore me out of the experience. Counter-spell continues to be a terrible mechanic engagement wise and this game seems to love its counter-spell. I will acknowledge that this could be sour grapes due to my playgroup all gravitating towards Scorpion, which is one of the most anti-fun clans to play against in this game (a trait shared with control decks in general in games where counter-play isn't considered).

I suppose I could go online, but for me, it's not the same. The online scene seems too disconnected for a card game. I might as well just play something that could only exist in the digital space.

If I were a member of a local playgroup that was mostly playing one clan, and driving the local metagame towards a particular style of play that I dislike, I would build the anti-meta deck, crush them and make them switch things up.

Of course this tends to lead to those players now crying that the game isn't fair for them because you have cards that prevent them from interacting with you....... But if they do that then you know for sure what kind of players/people they really are and you would probably want out of that playgroup anyways.

Sorry to see you go.

This game is suffering the same problem the star wars LCG suffered at their release. No constant release lead to stall meta and player being bored after a while and then leaving.