When you discard a Fleet Command upgrade card replace it with another using Chimaera, do the total points of all Fleet Command cards used go to scoring if the Chimaera is destroyed?

RRG page 9 under Scoring states

Discarded upgrade cards do not count toward a player’s
score unless they are equipped to a destroyed ship.

Additionally, with Profundity, if you un-equip a Commander and Officer upgrade card and place it on the command 1 ship and the Profundity gets destroyed, i'm guessing the Commander and Officer do not count towards the final score if the ship they are on are not destroyed?

You're asking questions there are no official answers for yet

It should be that you only get the points for the cards that are destroyed in the Profundity's case - so if you Lifeboat your Admiral and lose the Profundity, the Admiral is not destroyed and you don't get the points for it.

Chimaera is... understandably more difficult. It depends on word replace . If you consider replace as simply "equip in its place", then you need to tally up the cost of all cards that have been discarded (and ostensensibly left face down) as per the rule. However, that also leads into other questions of whether you can re-equip a unique card that has already been discarded once before.

But, if you consider Chimaera's replace as a hard replace, as in... Discard the card, and then in order to replace it, pick that card up and put it back in your folder and then take a new fresh card and put it down in its place....... Then Chimaera will only ever have 1 fleet command card on it.. Discarded or not... Which means the Chimaera, at worst, will only ever be worth 1 point more than what it says on its initial fleet build sheet

That also sidesteps the concept of both having to have multiple copies of an upgrade card to equip/requip as required, as well as the issue of potentially having multiple faceup/face down versions of the same unique card.

But the debate will rise until such time as there is official guidance, as we don't know how to parse "replace" in the context of it being used here...

I think the idea of a hard replace is sensible (as stated, it bypasses a bunch of follow on questions) and would recommend that, but I must also stress that this is a personal recommendation based on my own interpretation of not only the rules, but of rules design and games design in general - I cannot "prove" that it is the case as intended, as I am not a designer for FFG.

Chimaera lets you Discard an upgrade.

This is a well known mechanic from RRG, including how scoring works.

Same with Profundity - if an upgrade isn't on the destroyed ship, you get no points for it.

For the Profundity post transfer issue, I would be annoyed if I killed the lifeboat with Raddus on board and didn't get the 26 extra points for the death of the commander.

If I am rewarded these 26 points for killing the lifeboat I can't ask for them if I instead kill the (now commanderless) Profundity.

3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Chimaera lets you Discard an upgrade.

This is a well known mechanic from RRG, including how scoring works.

Same with Profundity - if an upgrade isn't on the destroyed ship, you get no points for it.

Discard is not the issue, it’s the replace you do after discarding that raises questions.

35 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Discard is not the issue, it’s the replace you do after discarding that raises questions.

Why does it? I think I can guess, but I'm pretty sure that's well into straw-grasping territory.

At the very least, until a FAQ rules otherwise, this is imo very simple.

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

Why does it? I think I can guess, but I'm pretty sure that's well into straw-grasping territory.

At the very least, until a FAQ rules otherwise, this is imo very simple.

Its like... you didn't.... even read my explanation above.

Its simple to say "replace means plug something in its place and leave it there..." but simple leaves a mess of other rules questions to clean up.

However, take replace as a hardcore meaning of replace, and well... Boom. All other problems solved, and satisfies the requirements of the word "replace" as well.

Why then involve the word 'discard' at all?

54 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Why then involve the word 'discard' at all?

Because it stops you from Discarding the Card for its effect , and then discarding it again to "replace" it... Effectively getting the effect for "Free", without using a Token to power it and getting a new fleet command in its place!

3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Because it stops you from Discarding the Card for its effect , and then discarding it again to "replace" it... Effectively getting the effect for "Free", without using a Token to power it and getting a new fleet command in its place!

I agree with your point of view of the "replace" thing, but I thing this explanation wouldn't do because you wouldn't be able to discard it for it's effect and then discard it with Chimaera as you won't have it by that instance if you had already discarded it.

Nevermind, after re-reading Chimaera and the discarded upgrades rules I think that this is the most logical explanation.

On 18/02/2018 at 6:48 PM, Green Knight said:

Chimaera lets you Discard an upgrade.

This is a well known mechanic from RRG, including how scoring works.

Same with Profundity - if an upgrade isn't on the destroyed ship, you get no points for it.

To clarify, here is what i mean about Chimaera by means of example.

Using ISD2 (120) Chimaera (4), you discard All Fighters Follow Me! (5) and replace it with Shields to Maximum! (6) Chimaera gets destroyed.

Is the points total now:

1. 120+4+5+6 = 134 [due to discarded cards are still equipped to the ship as per RRG including the replaced cards] OR

2. 120+4+5 = 129 [because we are treating the word 'replace' as a simply a text replacement of the card and we are counting the original fleet points of Intensify Firepower!] OR

3. 120+4+6 = 130 [because we are replacing all of All Fighters Follow Me! including the fleet points due to Shields to Maximum! being 6 points.

In my opionin it must be 3.

The reason:
After a match you caclulate all destroyed ships and their equipped upgrade cards.
Yes, you are discarding the fleet upgrades. And discard cards do count. But you are also replacing them. And this means the discarded one is not anymore equipped.

The best rule part for this might be from the Devastator

Quote

If this ship replaces one of its defense tokens (for example, using Captain Needa’s ability), its replaced defense token does not count as discarded.

Yes, it is for defense tokens and not for upgrade cards. But for me replace means the old is removed and the new is put in its place instead. But it shows that a replaced defense token is not part of the ship anymore. It is gone and cannot be "undiscarded".

Now you might ask when the Chimaera say discard and replace. Thats easy. If it would not have the word discard, you could just abuse it really badly.
As part of the Chimaera effect you have to discard the fleet upgrade card.
So you cannot use the Fleet upgrade (by discarding it instead of using a token or dial) and after this use the Chimaera to replace it. Because the discard is part of the cost for the Cimaera it is just a protection for abuse (kudos to the dev when this was intened).
Basically what @Drasnighta already said.

BUT this does also mean that you can use the same fleet upgrade again with the Chimaera. For example switch to Shields to Maximum. After this switch to All Fighters Follow me. And in the next turn back to Shields to Maximum. Because the unique does not count anymore. It was replaced. The upgrade card is not part of the ship or fleet anymore, and can be used again.

This is my interpretation of the Chimaera.

@Tokra this actually makes sense...

I'm now flip flopping between 1 & 3 of @Irokenics points....

1, because keeping the replaced card on the ship means you can't then re-use it a couple of turns latter. This makes it a harder decision to discard and replace. It also makes in game book keeping easier.

3, see @Tokra argument

... that’s what I was saying ?

27 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

... that’s what I was saying ?

Yes, you did. I just used a few more words for it .

Just now, Tokra said:

Yes, you did. I just used a few more words for it .

They were lovely and required words to get the point across, too...

So thank you for explaining well - I just feel disappointed in myself for not doing so right the first time.