Anyone thinking about "if you can't beat them join them" in regards to Legion. I just want to play a miniature game regularly with varying opponents.

I'm not giving up on Runewars by any means, I'm demoing a game next week at a store, but if the printers aren't printing Runewars I might dabble in Legion in the mean time.

I fully intend to play both. I played both WFB and 40K back in the day. Like them Rune Wars and Legion provide different styles of game, both of which I enjoy.

I feel like I am obligated to hate Legion. I agree though, they can scratch different itchs.

I have nothing against Legion at the moment. I mean, how many fans were upset at Runewars during last summer and fall because of all the love we were getting? But I do have to say that Legion does nothing for me at the moment. I don't see anything super exciting there that makes me want to buy in, paint a bunch of miniatures, and learn a new gaming system. I've said it several times in various places on FFG's forums and BGG, but IF FFG adds Clone Wars era armies, I would be very interested in giving Legion a shot. I would love to have Count Dooku, Assajj Ventress, or General Grievous leading a battalion of battle droids on the table to fight off squads of clone troopers. It just feels more right to me than the foot soldiers available now.

However, my situation is different from most. Regular gaming buddies are non-existent in my area, so I'm mostly collecting Runewars for the painting and on the off chance I can make it to events.

I fully plan to play both.

I've seen too much Star Wars stuff from FFG to want more.

I'll play both, plus Armada

2 hours ago, Xelto said:

I've seen too much Star Wars stuff from FFG to want more.

I know what you mean. Personally, I love Star Wars. If I were single, I'd probably be playing all of FFG's Star Wars games. However, having a family causes me to be more critical of my purchases and I have to ask myself, "What Star Wars experience is this game giving me that the other ones don't?" I agree that the mechanics of Legion are pretty different from Imperial Assault, but from a thematic standpoint (and I am more of a thematic gamer), the two are just way too similar to justify diving into yet another system. Same with Destiny when I already have a decent collection of the LCG. I think that's a big reason why Clone Wars era figures would get me involved in Legion. It would scratch an itch that FFG just hasn't reached yet.

I'm planning on getting a core and seeing how it is. Also need more to paint. Until runewars gets back to printing I have disposable income to buy more minis.

2 minutes ago, Jukey said:

I'm planning on getting a core and seeing how it is. Also need more to paint. Until runewars gets back to printing I have disposable income to buy more minis.

NVS

6 hours ago, Jukey said:

Also need more to paint.

SO... Where can I post my two core sets for you? No

Shadespire core? Descent stuff? IA?

Scythe?

Gloomhaven?

Anything? Anyone? ?

I'm a huge star wars fan and have played every SW that FFG has put out, until Legion. I'm gonna pass. Ffg seems to have a weird history with Star Wars games. They've cancelled the lcg, Armada seems to be sputtering along, Imperial Assault is all but dead, even Xwing is in a weird place. So all that said, I'll just end with, I'll stick with Runewars

7 minutes ago, darkjawa103 said:

I'm a huge star wars fan and have played every SW that FFG has put out, until Legion. I'm gonna pass. Ffg seems to have a weird history with Star Wars games. They've cancelled the lcg, Armada seems to be sputtering along, Imperial Assault is all but dead, even Xwing is in a weird place. So all that said, I'll just end with, I'll stick with Runewars

IA has had a good run and has just released the a coop app and announced a new skirmish map so it’s not quite dead yet (but I agree tha5 maybe it’s winding down?) Even without further releases there is so much content to play now (I make it 4 full size campaigns and two mini campaigns even excluding skirmish play and side missions

X-wing has just announced wave 14 (with a long awaited T65 fix).

I know Legion is the focus but I don’t imagine that’ll last for ever

My complaint with Xwing is that there have been so many erratta and changes it's daunting. They're also limited to what they can release with a property like SW, where with Runewars they can make up whatever they want. I'm not saying X-wing is dead, but when Team Covenant, some of the biggest fan boys out there, are taking a sit back and watch approach, that makes me wonder.

The initial release of Legion hasn't really bowled me over. The movement system, as I've seen it described in articles and (p)reviews, does look more streamlined than something like 40k, but it leaves me wondering how tactical it will really be if it can support that level of imprecision for the squad overall. The unit selection is, well, confusing. The AT-STs, speeder bikes, and T-47s pull on my fanboy "Yay this is Star Wars!" strings, and to a lesser extent the Rebel Troopers and Stormtroopers, but then you try to throw the AT-RT at me as a Rebel unit and it just doesn't stick and falls flat. Likewise, my cognitive gets dissonanced when you make Fleet Troopers and Snowtroopers just normal units that mix with the other stuff in any given battle, and I go "Huh?" Like, even if I paint up my Imperial army to be winterized so having some Snowtroopers makes sense, am I going to spend half my games playing against enemies with desert bases? How weird is that going to look? And what happens when they add Desert Troopers to the mix, and it fills a niche in my army that I've already based with snow, or, worse yet, what happens when Snowtroopers and Desert Troopers make a killer combo with a lot of mechanical synergy?

Then, there's the issue where even though I'd love to make a diorama of a snippet of the Battle of Hoth or something, I don't even know what I expect speeder bikes to DO in a pitched battle. They're scout and patrol units, not frontline fighters...

It's all of this kind of thing that makes me really hesitant to even take a bite at the apple to see if it tastes good. Because it's got all the warning signs of just not making sense to the point where I can't find myself having fun getting lost in the fun. Maybe if everybody's still raving about it in two years or something, I'll take a look and see if I can assemble an army that makes sense to me.

You shouldn’t be obligated to hate it. I plan to demo it. If it’s good I’ll pick it up, if not I won’t. Right now the thing I don’t like about it is defense dice. If the defense dice turn out to be more xwing than ia it probably won’t bother me and I’ll grab a core.

5 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

You shouldn’t be obligated to hate it. I plan to demo it. If it’s good I’ll pick it up, if not I won’t. Right now the thing I don’t like about it is defense dice. If the defense dice turn out to be more xwing than ia it probably won’t bother me and I’ll grab a core.

Hmm from the demo games I've seen played on twitch thus far that's about how I'd explain the defense dice, pretty much X-Wing like. Block or surge, and the surge converts to a block if that unit has the ability. Add auto blocks for terrain ... it seems about right.

I played Imperial Assault for awhile and liked it, tho the square based movement kinda drove me batty.

Star wars is about starships , no ? Inside space stations and death stars, ok thats imperial assault, but what is legion ? a star wars tablezop ? Teddybear offensive or what ? This is going much too far crazy, degenerated moneymilking.

i hope, i really hope, that legion becomes a desaster full flop so ffg becomes the feedback from their kicking fantasy game politics this way.

I’ll preface with the fact that I haven’t really watched anything since the team covenant gencon coverage and have only briefly skimmed the articles on Legion (less and less, as they continue to pile up on their 3 month monopoly of news) so anyone more knowledgeable feel free to correct me.

at its core I imagine overall it will probably be a fun game, I have not personally been burned by any of the FFG products I have heavily invested in (BoW, Armada, IA, XWing, Runewars) and am confident they’ll produce at least a decent game. However I will definitely not be buying in. At this point I’m only really trying to keep up with Armada, and am in all the way with Runewars.

Maybe it’s too many games, maybe it’s too similar to other games, maybe I’m still jaded from what I was hoping TLJ was going to be, I don’t know.

What I THINK my biggest hang up from Legion from a purely gameplay perspective is the command system. Feel free to correct me but my understanding is you take a certain amount of command cards or whatever they’re called as part of your army, draw them, and those determine the orders you are allowed to issue at what time and to what units. I believe I heard Alex Davy saying it was their way of adding a “fog of war” kind of mechanic. To me it sounds like “commands and colors”. Battles of Westeros (Battlelore with a ASOIAF skin) was my first foray into an FFG/miniatures game. Super fun game, good way to get into REAL boardgaming, flawed command system. Great for telling a story, but very poor for making a competitive game.

As I’ve matured in my miniature gaming, I’ve come to appreciate how while variance is important in a game to keep things fun and interesting and fluid without a mathematically correct answer to any given situation, variance should only affect the game state, it should never limit player decisions. Dice, damage decks, environment effects: good. Command cards that say I can only issue orders to two infantry units while I have three in play: bad. There is a big difference in losing a game where the possible turning point was when you drew the panic card and your opponent reformed you or your dice abandoned you all game, compared to you could only activate a certain number of units at a given time. While both are possible to play around, the latter seems to me like you’re fighting the game, not your opponent.

Anyway that’s my biggest issue, combined with all the smaller stuff. I’d be lying if I wasn’t also just spiteful that this is keeping Runewars news/production from progressing. I love this game.

2 hours ago, jcshep19 said:

What I THINK my biggest hang up from Legion from a purely gameplay perspective is the command system. Feel free to correct me but my understanding is you take a certain amount of command cards or whatever they’re called as part of your army, draw them, and those determine the orders you are allowed to issue at what time and to what units. I believe I heard Alex Davy saying it was their way of adding a “fog of war” kind of mechanic. To me it sounds like “commands and colors”. Battles of Westeros (Battlelore with a ASOIAF skin) was my first foray into an FFG/miniatures game. Super fun game, good way to get into REAL boardgaming, flawed command system. Great for telling a story, but very poor for making a competitive game.

It is more similar to Warhammer Diskwars than it is to Commands and Colors. However, it's different from that, too. Before the game begins, you assemble a hand of 7 command cards. There are some number of neutral command cards and each leader also has their own unique set of 3 command cards that only they can use. When you use a command card, it is discarded and you can't use it again for the duration of the game. Since there are only 6 rounds in the game, you are never in a position where the cards tell you exactly what to play because during round 6, you'll have 2 cards left in your hand. It takes the hand-management aspect of BattleLore: Second Edition, and removes the random aspect of the deck. It actually sounds quite interesting to me, coming from a BattleLore background. Maybe if I didn't already buy Imperial Assault ...

EDIT: Apparently there is one command card that does go back to your hand.

My FLGS moved RW out of the dedicated minis section of the store (which has X-Wing, 40k, AoS, WarmaHordes, Malifaux, and Guildball) to a separate section on the bottom shelf. They also clearanced some material at 50-75% off. Looks like a lot of hope I had that this store would eventually push RW have been dashed. I have no doubt they’re making room for Legion with the new space.

Meanwhile, I know Legion will be popular, but I wonder how well supported it’ll be by FFG given the current wargaming miniature space. Legion certainly has a different product mechanic then WarmaHordes or 40K, so I wonder if that will entice or turn off the miniatures crowd. In addition, stores may be hesitant to try Legion full force given the slow build of RW. Time will tell, but I’m likely not gonna be first in line for Legion.

2 hours ago, Hawkman2000 said:

My FLGS moved RW out of the dedicated minis section of the store (which has X-Wing, 40k, AoS, WarmaHordes, Malifaux, and Guildball) to a separate section on the bottom shelf. They also clearanced some material at 50-75% off. Looks like a lot of hope I had that this store would eventually push RW have been dashed. I have no doubt they’re making room for Legion with the new space.

Meanwhile, I know Legion will be popular, but I wonder how well supported it’ll be by FFG given the current wargaming miniature space. Legion certainly has a different product mechanic then WarmaHordes or 40K, so I wonder if that will entice or turn off the miniatures crowd. In addition, stores may be hesitant to try Legion full force given the slow build of RW. Time will tell, but I’m likely not gonna be first in line for Legion.

You can't rely on a game store to push for a healthy community. It takes a lot of work to do.

On the plus side at least Legion should have more than just the core box at launch. The wait for expansions or buy more core boxes was very annoying for Runewars.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

On the plus side at least Legion should have more than just the core box at launch. The wait for expansions or buy more core boxes was very annoying for Runewars.

Which actually might be a compelling argument for FFG to NOT just let RWM quietly die. They're new to miniature wargaming, and even if you consider X-Wing Minis and Imperial Assault, those are very different communities and games -- consider the design of XWM, for instance, and how few SKUs it needed to support pretty healthy list building even at the beginning; can you imagine if Rune Wars Minis had to survive for years with only two factions? Or think about the list-building options Rune Wars Minis offers each faction with 5 or 6 unit SKUs vs. the first two waves of X-Wing Minis with 5 or 6 SKUs per faction...

Given that, and given how much FFG seems to be learning from the RWM launch to launch Legion more intelligently to meet the needs to build a community, it wouldn't surprise me if FFG is willing to keep maintaining RWM at a loss just so it can continue to make learning moves with RWM so it doesn't embarrass itself with LFL's license.

2 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

You can't rely on a game store to push for a healthy community. It takes a lot of work to do.

In fairness if you like a game you need to advocate for its growth in your area. If I’ve learned anything from jumping into armada and now Runewars its this.

On 2/18/2018 at 7:47 PM, jcshep19 said:

W hat I THINK my biggest hang up from Legion from a purely gameplay perspective is the command system. Feel free to correct me but my understanding is you take a certain amount of command cards or whatever they’re called as part of your army, draw them, and those determine the orders you are allowed to issue at what time and to what units. I believe I heard Alex Davy saying it was their way of adding a “fog of war” kind of mechanic. To me it sounds like “commands and colors”. Battles of Westeros (Battlelore with a ASOIAF skin) was my first foray into an FFG/miniatures game. Super fun game, good way to get into REAL boardgaming, flawed command system. Great for telling a story, but very poor for making a competitive game.

As I’ve matured in my miniature gaming, I’ve come to appreciate how while variance is important in a game to keep things fun and interesting and fluid without a mathematically correct answer to any given situation, variance should only affect the game state, it should never limit player decisions. Dice, damage decks, environment effects: good. Command cards that say I can only issue orders to two infantry units while I have three in play: bad. There is a big difference in losing a game where the possible turning point was when you drew the panic card and your opponent reformed you or your dice abandoned you all game, compared to you could only activate a certain number of units at a given time. While both are possible to play around, the latter seems to me like you’re fighting the game, not your opponent.

This isn't 100% accurate. You have a standard command deck, your commander modifies that deck. You have access to every command card you bring at the start of the game. You choose 1 command card to use each round. All but 1 command card (that we know of) are discarded after use. The command card does two things: it is your bid for initiative and it says which/how many units you can give a direct order to.

You will always activate all of your units every round. The units you give a direct order to need to be within 18 inches of your commander and they will have their token face up next to them. The rest of your units will have their token off to the side. On your turn, you can activate a unit that has a face up token, or you can draw one of your tokens off to the side randomly and activate that unit. The tokens are grouped by type. All Corps (troopers) have the same token, all supports have the same token, etc. If one trooper unit was given a direct order and you draw a trooper token, you cannot activate the one that was given the order.

So you need to decide the best combination for initiative and direct orders for each round. The fog of war effect is that you don't always know when a unit will activate. Every unit will always activate every round.