So calling @Parakitor and @Magnus Grendel input requested along with others.

So insane league rules this week, no r1 or other items that are not the printed on the card.

So how many to use is the question cause my opponent has only seen Strikers 1 time. So he should be in for a horrible shock.

so I can get a 5th and do 5. I was looking at 4 with Predator and LWF. Then there is this beast.... which is just bonkers. I could drop one and up to higher PS.

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Kylo Ren (TIE Silencer) (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Advanced Optics (2)
Autothrusters (2)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

4 hours ago, Ronu said:

So insane league rules this week, no r1 or other items that are not the printed on the card.

Not sure I follow, but hey.

4 hours ago, Ronu said:

So how many to use is the question cause my opponent has only seen Strikers 1 time. So he should be in for a horrible shock.

so I can get a 5th and do 5. I was looking at 4 with Predator and LWF. Then there is this beast.... which is just bonkers. I could drop one and up to higher PS.

4 with predator is a bit of a trap; yes you get a reroll to hit but I remain unconvinced 4 with predator puts out more firepower than 5 without - given that you can still assume one ship PS-killed or arc dodged by 'better' pilots, it's more like 3-to-4 than 4-to-5 in practice.

Against low generics, they'll eat them alive - versus PS1-2, you get double rerolls and the PS advantage.

I wouldn't drop one. Getting higher PS doesn't really matter unless you have a big jump in PS. Moving out of the PS1-2 bracket helps with predator but it depends how often you see that; I wouldn't buy it just for the sake of it. Besides which, knowing your PS1s will get the drop to block gunboats and wookies regardless of initiative can be useful.

Whatever you do, don't buy higher PS for just one ship. Kylo will be a headache enough - locking a heavy swarm into a specific movement order messes with the flexibility of a striker's dial, but Kylo at least isn't in a striker. You could consider swapping Fire Control System for Advanced Sensors and giving him the edge in ability to dance in return for the initiative bid.

I have 4, so by-golly I'm going to run all 4! That usually means I need some kind of support ship, or an anchor that balances the weakness of the strikers (see below).

I think you'll like running 3 with Kylo Ren. I agree with Magnus Grendel that you can give up the initiative bid because the Strikers can block so well. If you're used to their shenanigans, FCS is great on Kylo. But if you think there's a chance you'll put Kylo at risk, Advanced Sensors all the way. That will really make your opponent's head spin.

6 hours ago, Ronu said:

So I can get a 5th and do 5. I was looking at 4 with Predator and LWF.

Ooh...5 strikers sure is tempting. I've lasted this long with just 4, and with the TIE Reaper on the way, I don't see myself rushing out to buy the 5th. But it could be fun though.

Here's something I'm looking forward to trying as I gear up for the TIE Reaper.

Scimitar Sq. Pilot (TIE Shuttle, Fleet Officer, Systems Officer, Twin Ion Engine Mk II) [22 points]

4x Imperial Trainee (Adaptive Ailerons, Lightweight Frame) [19 points each]

98 points total

This is a way to give a dedicated support ship to the strikers. I tried a squad with Hux shuttle and the named pilots, and I was impressed by the extra focus tokens. I also used a Tomax Bren + Cool Hand + Fleet Officer support piece, which was likewise effective. I'll try to see if this one has legs. In my opinion, the more ships you get on the table the better. Also, giving target locks to Strikers who have Segnor's Looped out of enemy arcs sounds really nice.

9 hours ago, Ronu said:

so I can get a 5th and do 5.

My SO will go with 5 Scarif Defenders to out regional next week (that is to a large part the fault of you guys, @Parakitor and @Magnus Grendel ...! )

We'll play two practice games today, one against GhostFenn of course, the other probably against ReyMiranda

edit: wow that ghost fenn game was very one sided... I destroyed 3 Strikers in 3 turns and lost just 4 shield Oo

10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

wow that ghost fenn game was very one sided... I destroyed 3 Strikers in 3 turns and lost just 4 shield Oo

Ouch!

Any particular feedback? It's a list I've yet to face with my strikers, and any guidance would be welcome.....

18 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Ouch!

Any particular feedback? It's a list I've yet to face with my strikers, and any guidance would be welcome.....

It was the lothal rebel version with Sensorjammer. Fenn can prevent two focus tokens, one by HSCP, one by his ability. Based on this I now believe that taking out Fenn first might also be better for a swarm.

Initially I thought the swarm should burn down the Ghost as fast as possible, but I‘m not so sure anymore.

Next time I‘d try to jump from beyond range 3 to 1 and burst the ghost. One striker will die anyway, so taking 4 or 5 dice does not matter. Maybe you can bring 3 striker to go against Fenn and Zeb. It will be hard, but that would be my try if I were to play the matchup.

I find myself usually taking an evade with my Strikers for defense, so that might be the best choice against the Fenn/Hotshot combo that strips your focus. I was practicing with a 3 Striker and Blackout (Silencer) build and it’s a lot of fun. I don’t think it’s exactly up to facing the current meta. I found it was about equal against a tripe T-70 build I also enjoy. I’m going to try it against the Ghost/Fenn monster and see how it holds up.

I’m very tempted to get two more and try five, though, although the Reaper looks to be a great future fit.

On ‎17‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 9:31 PM, GreenDragoon said:

It was the lothal rebel version with Sensorjammer. Fenn can prevent two focus tokens, one by HSCP, one by his ability. Based on this I now believe that taking out Fenn first might also be better for a swarm.

Initially I thought the swarm should burn down the Ghost as fast as possible, but I‘m not so sure anymore.

Depends on the Ghost.

If it's Kanan, then yes, because his ability is arguably worse than Fenn's and he needs to die, now. Plus, let's not forget he's the one actually spitting out the damage.

If it's a lothal rebel with sensor jammer, then no ; Sensor Jammer is a weird bit of kit in that it's embarrassingly irrelevant in 'normal' shots but brutal beyond belief if you don't have a focus token (or expertise, agent kallus, or whatever). It's much like the Palpatine Shuttle with Sensor Jammer and Carnor Jax combination - anyone going for Palpatine first is in for a long, painful struggle.

Fortunately, unlike Kanan's ability, sensor jammer only protects the VCX-100, not the sheathipede. So whilst Fenn can still leave you with two unmodified attacks, he's not dropping an omega leader-esque 'reverse juke' on you, and without Kanan's ability reducing attack dice, even three 'proper' shot have a decent chance of turning what's essentially a HWK with delusions of grandeur into swiss cheese in a single shooting phase so he can't use shield regen.

28 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

If it's a lothal rebel with sensor jammer, then no ;

Yeah that‘s why I would first like to try again. But from that one game I‘m inclined to question it more than before.

Definitely go for the Ghost if it‘s not Kanan and without a SJ. Otherwise... I need more games to be sure.

Edit: currently I believe:

• Kanan+SJ: Fenn
• Kanan: Ghost, maybe?
• Lothal+SJ: Ghost, maybe? Not sure about that anymore
• Lothal: Ghost

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yeah that‘s why I would first like to try again. But from that one game I‘m inclined to question it more than before.

Definitely go for the Ghost if it‘s not Kanan and without a SJ. Otherwise... I need more games to be sure.

Edit: currently I believe:

• Kanan+SJ: Fenn
• Kanan: Ghost, maybe?
• Lothal+SJ: Ghost, maybe? Not sure about that anymore
• Lothal: Ghost

Agreed on point 1, and probably 2.

Point 3, not sure - as noted, Fenn's the linchpin of the Ghost's toughness, and targetable without having to deal with the jammer

Point 4 - I guess so, but it doesn't really matter so much; you've got Fenn messing with tokens but that's it, and even unmodified dice can chop up an agility 0 target pretty fast.

I'd agree with @dadocollin - normally, I'd take a focus token for flexibility, but when facing Hotshot Fenn, you might as well evade - two ships (at least) won't be able to use their focus offensively, meaning they might as well take the better defensive option. That goes double for the ship shot at by fenn, because a 2-dice primary 'turns off' lightweight frame. Plus, whilst focus more or less balances out with evade over multiple rolls, the hit/miss nature of twin laser turret fire (where you can 'always' spend an evade token if you get a poor attack roll to capitalise on) makes evade much more useful.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'd agree with @dadocollin - normally, I'd take a focus token for flexibility, but when facing Hotshot Fenn, you might as well evade - two ships (at least) won't be able to use their focus offensively, meaning they might as well take the better defensive option.

Hm, I’m not sure I agree. Taking 5 evades mean at least 3 actions are wasted. Taking 5 focus means only 2 actions are wasted.

• 5 attacks with 3 dice and 5 focus deal on average 11.25 hits
• 5 attacks with 3 dice and just 3 focus deal 9.75, and just 8.238 if against a sensor jammer .
• 5 attacks with 3 dice and evades deal 7.5 without SJ and just 3.72 with SJ .

Taking the evades instead of using 3 focus loses you 4.5 damage.

If you get to range 1, then the numbers are:

• 10 expected with evades, down to 5.763 if sensor jamme r
• 15 with 5 focus , down to 13 with 3 focus, and down to 11.305 with SJ and 3 focus

You will lose a ship with 27% chance before TLT, and with 67% chance after TLT (if gate of storms actually performs the TLT attack twice. Otherwise it‘s 90% to lose a ship). Anyway, you‘ll likely lose a ship, but not more.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hm, I’m not sure I agree. Taking 5 evades mean at least 3 actions are wasted. Taking 5 focus means only 2 actions are wasted.

• 5 attacks with 3 dice and 5 focus deal on average 11.25 hits
• 5 attacks with 3 dice and just 3 focus deal 9.75, and just 8.238 if against a sensor jammer .
• 5 attacks with 3 dice and evades deal 7.5 without SJ and just 3.72 with SJ .

Taking the evades instead of using 3 focus loses you 4.5 damage.

If you get to range 1, then the numbers are:

• 10 expected with evades, down to 5.763 if sensor jamme r
• 15 with 5 focus , down to 13 with 3 focus, and down to 11.305 with SJ

Whilst I agree with the comments, I'd repeat what I noted earlier is that under no circumstances should you fire at the sensor jammer whilst Fenn is still active . That's the worst of all possible worlds, and whether you've no focus because you evaded or no focus because you've lost it or can't use it, it's crippling.

The debate is therefore between the improved damage from firing at Fenn with 3 focus, versus the benefits of the targeted ship having an evade instead of a focus and it's improved odds of surviving the turn.

A focus on a 3-dice attack is generally worth about 3/4 of a hit. That makes the 3 focus worth a couple of points of damage. On the other hand, the evade is only stopping one point of damage (I'm assuming the focus does pretty much nothing due to Fenn stripping it off against the probably-irrelevant-popgun shot), so it should be a win in favour of focus tokens.

One other thing to note (in the specific case of a Lothal Rebel) is that Scarif Defenders get to shoot even if killed due to the simultaneous attack rule (which arguably makes your survival less important). It's also worth noting that even if killed, both a Lothal Rebel and Zeb (once launched) will also get to shoot back if you kill them! It's a pleasant surprise to have PS3 actually matter.....

I'm kind of hoping that, Fenn (a) can't reposition to arc dodge and (b) needs arc on your ships to use hotshot co-pilot means that despite his PS, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting shots on him, and (c) with 5 arcs lined up on him he's likely to be very hesitant to use his focus token offensively, so you're looking at only one hit to dodge in practical terms.

Dunno. I might be flip-flopping back to focusing.

I'm not sure on the numbers for defence (can't see the link). The turret is ezra-and-mauled, so pretty much guaranteed 2 or (more likely 3) hits, so would appreciate a work-through

To survive, you've got to dodge 2 shots out of Fenn's 2-dice attack and the 4 Twin Laser Turret shots to be left on one hit.

Getting a 3-natural-evades is pretty much negligible odds with an evade token, but at least one of them need only be a 2-evade roll.

A focus token does improve the odds, but you know the focus token would be spend against Fenn, not the laser turret fire, because of hotshot co-pilot.

And no, you won't lose more than one ship; The Twin Laser Turret can only inflict 4 damage - it's very likely to, but that's it's maximum, and it can only split fire between a maximum of two targets, so even if Fenn gets lucky and plinks a hit through, you can't 'shift' your fourth turret shot to take advantage of it.

EDIT: just did a quick back-of-a-spreadsheet. More important than anything else - 3 focused and 2 unfocused attacks should kill a focused sheathipede in one turn. 5 unfocused won't. With fenn often having pulse ray shields, that's a critical difference!

I've only run Strikers with three Strikers + something else. I tend to be more offensive with the other ship and cautious with the Strikers. The problem with Ghost/TLT is that you can only hide in the turret donut out of arc, so I'm sure TLT would just go for any Striker who didn't take the evade if you pick and choose. With five strikers instead of three, you're right, you are giving up significant offense by evading each time.

It's going to be a tall order to beat Ghost/Fenn with five Strikers. I think figuring out the puzzle of who to attack first is important. A triple Defender list with Swarm Leader Vessery beat Ghost/Fenn in the NorCal regional final yesterday. There are obviously some mechanics there that work well against Ghost/Fenn, but it might give some clues as to overall strategy with a primary attack list like Strikers. From what I understand, it was very close, but I'd like to see the attack strategy.

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I'd repeat what I noted earlier is that under no circumstances should you fire at the sensor jammer whilst Fenn is still active . That's the worst of all possible worlds, and whether you've no focus because you evaded or no focus because you've lost it or can't use it, it's crippling.

I agreed. Then I ran the numbers, and now I'm again not sure. Currently I'm now at these priorities, assuming a Lothal + SJ:

1. try to get 5 range 1 shots -> Focus and shoot Lothal
2. if you fail -> shoot Fenn

5 range 3 shots against Fenn+focus or no focus deals 3.55 or 4.48 damage, respectively. That's not enough. So even there you have to take focus. Even using just 3 focus pushes the chance for 5+ damage to 66% , (even if he has focus, otherwise it's 82%) which usually gets you the kill.

In both cases you have to focus.

8 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

The debate is therefore between the improved damage from firing at Fenn with 3 focus, versus the benefits of the targeted ship having an evade instead of a focus and it's improved odds of surviving the turn.

I'm assuming a primary attack and a TLT against a tokenless ship (the hotshot target). The primary is the better choice but with higher risk.

• no evades
  • Primary range 2 + TLT (Maul+Ezra) vs tokenless Defender: 3.5 damage
  • Primary range 1 + TLT (Maul+Ezra) vs tokenless Defender: 4.09 damage
  • two TLTs (Maul+Ezra) vs tokenless Defender: 2.93 damage
• evades
  • Primary range 2 + TLT (Maul+Ezra) vs evade Defender: 2.54 damage
  • Primary range 1 + TLT (Maul+Ezra) vs evade Defender: 3.12 damage
  • two TLTs (Maul+Ezra) vs evade Defender: 2.14 damage

This shows that my experience was very atypical: the Ghost should not get a ship per turn unless it's range 1. We don't need to go through focus because the Ghost can always target a focus-less ship. It also means in my opinion that taking the evade is better than I initially thought. You should not lose a ship if all evade, and that is extremely valuable. But you often won't lose a ship when taking focus, too.

Is shooting Fenn still the correct choice? He will not necessarily die if you don't take focus. If you get 5 range 1 shots on Fenn (which should not happen, but who knows...) then 3 focus push you to 95% of dealing 5+ damage.
But if the FennGhost player is somewhat capable, then his Fenn will stay at range 3 of you. 5 shots range 3 against Fenn (even if he has no focus) only have a chance of 26% to kill him!

So do you really go for Fenn? The alternative is half points on Ghost, after all (those 8.23 damage range 2 with 3 focus against Sensor Jammer), or almost 3/4 if you can make range 1.

Those 2 green dice (or 3) are very resilient against unmodded shots. So is going for Fenn really the correct choice? I'm going back and forward on it, and lean towards "no" right now.

What about something like this:

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
General Hux (5)
Courier Droid (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Total: 100

Have 3 of them grab evades, then Hux them for a focus. With luck they go after the shuttle and you can get a few more turns with your Strikers. Can't wait for the Reaper, I think it might make this squad quite legitimate.

Here's the triple TIE Defenders beating Ghost/Fenn in a nail biter at Northern California Regionals final table (finals at the end of the stream): https://youtu.be/lhheHGgN8XQ

The Ghost pilot had double crit Stunned Pilot and went for a block and blew up.

Still, I like the way the Defenders went for Fenn to chase him off, but then let him go and focused on Ghost. This obviously could have gone either way it was so close at the end. The Defenders also get that free evade from their title, so no debate about taking it, but still an interesting match.

4 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

What about something like this:

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)
General Hux (5)
Courier Droid (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Imperial Trainee (17)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Total: 100

What did Trainee #4 do, to get assigned to fly the janky TIE Striker without a Lightweight Frame?

He's the one with the red shirt obviously

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

But if the FennGhost player is somewhat capable, then his Fenn will stay at range 3 of you. 5 shots range 3 against Fenn (even if he has no focus) only have a chance of 26% to kill him!

Range 3 is almost always a bad place for strikers. A 3-dice attack with 'just' focus (or not even that) performs badly against a target with a range defense bonus, whilst lightweight frame often lets you down and means no matching bonus for you.

Fenn may be high PS but, as noted, has a pretty rubbish dial and needs to point at you to use hotshot copilot aggressively. That means that getting many range 1 attacks is unlikely but getting everyone into range 2 in a killbox isn't unreasonable.

11 hours ago, dadocollin said:

Still, I like the way the Defenders went for Fenn to chase him off, but then let him go and focused on Ghost. This obviously could have gone either way it was so close at the end. The Defenders also get that free evade from their title, so no debate about taking it, but still an interesting match.

That's not a bad plan. Fenn won't want to be 'in front of' the Ghost, and one thing strikers excel at is long, sweeping turns. It should be possible to look like you're heading for fenn and when he tries to disengage, hook round after the VCX (ailerons bank 1 + dial turn 1 is a very nice move for a swarm to pull en masse when your opponent isn't expecting it!).

It'll be a judgement call, though;

• If you can get shots with Fenn entirely out of range, you can rip a huge chunk out of the Ghost - again, rubbish dial, no repositioning, this time paired with zero agility and a large base means that 5 ships with 3-dice primaries can turn it to swiss cheese disturbingly fast without its assorted defensive tricks
• If you can get shots with Fenn able to shoot first, you effectively 'loose' one attacker to the sensor jammer. Still might be worth it, especially if it leaves Fenn going the wrong way and hence gives you a second turn to keep hammering the ghost
• If you're still within range 2 of Fenn, you've wasted the move - trying to killbox the ghost means you probably don't have shots on the sheathipede, but you've lost 2 attackers to tokenless shots at the sensor jammer.

One other thought - I'd rather kill Fenn first because attacking the Ghost you need to figure out how to pursue it, and that's going to be awkward. You can't easily stay within the range 1 bubble with a striker's minimum speed (not without bumping, anyway) but if you're forced to Koiogran or Segnor, you're left, once again, with tokenless shots, which get their teeth pulled by the sensor jammer.

10 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

What did Trainee #4 do, to get assigned to fly the janky TIE Striker without a Lightweight Frame?

He's carrying the general's luggage.

There was a long thread about trying to beat Kanan/Fenn and one thing I took away from that is how quickly Ghost/Fenn can burn down your list - that essentially a lot of Ghost/Fenn matches are ending after 45 minutes or less. In that Defender video, you'll see there's a point where Ghost still has full health and I think one of the Defenders is already gone or close. It doesn't look good for the Defenders, but once they focus pursuit on the Ghost, its health goes fast. I can't help thinking that Ghost is going to burn through Strikers at a rate of one per turn once the shooting starts, so there may just not be enough time to attack Fenn. If you're flying five Strikers, I feel like the best thing to do might be just getting your shots in on Ghost as soon as you can and as fast as you can - trying to stay at range 1-2. Maybe trying to set up a block with one Striker?

22 minutes ago, dadocollin said:

If you're flying five Strikers, I feel like the best thing to do might be just getting your shots in on Ghost as soon as you can and as fast as you can - trying to stay at range 1-2. Maybe trying to set up a block with one Striker?

Probably a bad call trying to block or range 1.

• Thanks to Fenn's Co-ordinate, blocking the Ghost doesn't stop it getting actions, it just stops it getting one action out of a possible 2.
• Trying for range 1 on a large ship makes you very, very susceptible to a high-PS boost, which is likely to cost you more firepower in dodged arcs of fire than it'll grant you in range 1 combat bonuses.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth - if you get a range 1 shot, do the happy striker dance (TM) but don't risk losing shots to get them.

I guess that 'mug the ghost' remains a good plan. You should get 2-and-a-bit hits from focused attacks, and half a hit from an unfocused attack.

If you can line up everyone on the ghost, assume it has an evade token every turn, and assume you lose one striker a turn, then in theory:

Turn 1 - 2 unfocused attacks and 3 focused attacks - 6.75 damage

Turn 2 - 2 unfocused attacks and 2 focused attacks - 11.25 damage

Turn 3 - 2 unfocused attacks and 1 focused attacks - 13.5 damage

Turn 4 onwards - 2 unfocused attacks - likely no damage

given that a Ghost can take 16 hits, you're going to run out of strikers before it dies.

By comparison, if you can remove Fenn and still have 4 strikers on the board, you can chop up the Ghost in three turns of fire on average with a touch of overkill, even allowing for losing one striker per turn.

Killing it starting with just 3 is more difficult, but doable. At that point, for example, blocking is no longer so much of a risk without co-ordinate, so going for range 1 shots where the TLT can't fire back becomes an option.

12 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Probably a bad call trying to block or range 1.

• Thanks to Fenn's Co-ordinate, blocking the Ghost doesn't stop it getting actions, it just stops it getting one action out of a possible 2.
• Trying for range 1 on a large ship makes you very, very susceptible to a high-PS boost, which is likely to cost you more firepower in dodged arcs of fire than it'll grant you in range 1 combat bonuses.

Yeah that coordinated boost is a real pain!

On 20.2.2018 at 2:30 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

Probably a bad call trying to block or range 1.

we tried two more games, by the way.

One game she was surprised by my maneuver (I had initiative) and bumped, the next ship had to change course slightly. But that ended up blocking all boosts possible. Still did not help too much though. The main issue was that she had no focus, and the two she did I removed or blocked, which cost her around 7 damage.

The second game she won. I misjudged and barely clipped an asteroid with the boost, causing me to have TLT shots only, and taking 5 shots modified by focus. Two rounds of shots and the Ghost was dead.

It is incredibly hard to pull off, but 5 range 1-2 shots with focus will destroy the Ghost in two rounds, three max. The worst part is really the sensor jammer.

You could try to make a nice killbox, but unless the boosts are somehow prevented it will allows the Ghost to boost away from at least one, probably two ships. Either dodging their arcs entirely or at least getting to range 3.