The problem with Karsabi being the flanker in this list is that you're giving your opponent good choices.
"Why would i dive headfirst into QD and a brick when i can point all my guns at the easier, isolated target?"
Edited by thebrettskiHow Do You Flank?
8 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:
Hi everyone, sorry to raise the 2 month old dead here, but I'm still working on trying to learn how to flank. I flew QD, a Delta, and Vynder at the CaC over the weekend and did okay. I really felt like the list succeeded or failed based solely on my flying skill, and unfortunately some big mistakes left me finishing the day 2-4. I still had a ton of fun, because Vynder may just be the most fun pilot in the game for me.
Anyways, back to flanking. When I did it well, I played really well - my two wins were 100-0. I think I learned a lot, the first game I played there was only my fourth game playing the list, and I think I'd like to give it some more reps. So Vynder is best when you can get a good flank in, and if you can anticipate your opponent's moves she's fantastic at dodging arcs (my goodness she loves flying against lower PS).
In hindsight I'm wondering if I should change my initial setup. I put all my ships together to start, and sent Vynder off by herself and kept the other two together. I learned on a couple of occasions that it's very easy to go too fast with Vynder. Anyways, I was looking this morning on how to flank and ran across this question that I asked a couple months ago. I reviewed the replies and @AlexW 's stood out. The opponent chooses the flanker. I'm thinking that putting QD and Delta in the middle and Vynder on the opposite side of the opponent is the right way to go. Vynder has no problem catching up to the fight or running away if need be, and it's much easier for my opponent to get tangled up with my jousters if they start in the middle of the board.
Sorry for the rambling, this Biggless version of X-Wing is much more fun but I feel like I'm learning the game all over again. Any help would be appreciated.
Glad you've enjoyed some success with it. The biggest trick to flanking, in my experience is less in the setup and more in the execution of maneuvers to get your ships in a position in the first engagement where they are still supporting each other.
In your list, I'd probably either have all three ships with a good amount of space in between with QD in the middle and most direct route to whatever your target is (since she's the slowest). Alternatively, you can start with Vynder and QD together, but have Vynder go fast and slam to create a lot of space from QD in the first turn (sort of like a free redeploy). The reason all three of your ships can work independently is that QD will punish anyone that goes after her, Vynder can escape if you recognize they commit there, and the delta is just plain tough and can flip behind them after the first encounter.
Recently I've been running QD+2 Silencers and I set the up all together. The goal here is to get my opponent focused on a particular angle of attack initially. I then break them up and move the silencers very quickly to other approach vectors (like I suggested with Vynder above) to create flanking positions.
Generally, the reason I like to flank is that, assuming I set up a good first engagement I have a strong positional advantage the following turns even if I've lost a ship. It's also likely to lure an opponent into an error. If they show their hand early, you can get shots while they have none (if their target can escape).
57 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:In hindsight I'm wondering if I should change my initial setup. I put all my ships together to start, and sent Vynder off by herself and kept the other two together. I learned on a couple of occasions that it's very easy to go too fast with Vynder. Anyways, I was looking this morning on how to flank and ran across this question that I asked a couple months ago. I reviewed the replies and @AlexW 's stood out. The opponent chooses the flanker. I'm thinking that putting QD and Delta in the middle and Vynder on the opposite side of the opponent is the right way to go. Vynder has no problem catching up to the fight or running away if need be, and it's much easier for my opponent to get tangled up with my jousters if they start in the middle of the board.
I would be inclined to start separated - the sooner you're asking the opponent to decide his approach the sooner you've got a read on what he's planning to do.
I'm not sure about the Delta in this squad, whether it pulls it's weight in this role. Presumably it's /x7 so it's not something that the enemy thinks he blat down easily, and with only 3 red single-modded dice it's something he's relatively happy leaving to peck away at him. In a Delta/QD pairing you've got a really tough main force that incentivises the opponent to leave it alone and chase Vynder.
Have you tried a HLC Nu Gunboat in place of the Delta? 28pts with HLC/Linked Batteries, so the same as an /x7 Delta but it means if the opponent turns his back on it to chase Vynder he's opening up to the HLC just following along behind him chucking 4 hits all the time.
On 2/16/2018 at 5:50 PM, Boba Rick said:So I'm kinda digging Karsabi's ability, with the idea being that he uses the remaining TL from Homers to just reload turn after turn. He reloads, gets rid of WD token and takes a stress. Then uses Wired for stress rerolls and has GC.
But, in order to do that I'm going to have to learn a little bit about flanking. Drawing higher PS ships into an engagement with Vessery and QD, and having Karsabi come from the side where there's room enough for a TL.
Is this just a horrible idea or is it plausible? I'm not very experienced at this sort of flying, but I have done it once or twice.
Here's the list:
Lieutenant Karsabi — Alpha-class Star Wing 24 Wired 1 Homing Missiles 5 Guidance Chips 0 Ship Total: 30 Colonel Vessery — TIE Defender 35 Crack Shot 1 Twin Ion Engine Mk. II 1 TIE/x7 -2 Ship Total: 35 "Quickdraw" — TIE/sf Fighter 29 Veteran Instincts 1 Fire-Control System 2 Primed Thrusters 1 Lightweight Frame 2 Special Ops Training 0 Ship Total: 35
personally ive found the best way to flank is unexpected signors loop or k-turns. the classic example of this is 2 ig2000s looping opposite directions around your opponent to create a no win for them... whichever way they go they cant get you both in arc and you are virtually garaunteed to maul someone
Some great thoughts for me to mull over, @AlexW and @Stay On The Leader ! I especially like that flanky-flank graphic.
I did not try a NU HLC Gunboat, but it is temping. That K-Turning cheap Delta is so tanky though for its price that I hate to let it go. Yes, I ran it as x7 with Twin Ions (boy did those come in handy).
I am definitely going to have to try different setups and find what works for me. Thank you.
EDIT: I think you're right, @Stay On The Leader , I need to run an HLC GUNBOAT with this. The HLC is enough of a threat and glass cannon to draw heat off of Vynder.
Now this means I need to buy a 5th GUNBOAT because my wife insists on have three for herself. Sigh.
Edited by Boba Rick42 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:Some great thoughts for me to mull over, @AlexW and @Stay On The Leader ! I especially like that flanky-flank graphic.
I did not try a NU HLC Gunboat, but it is temping. That K-Turning cheap Delta is so tanky though for its price that I hate to let it go. Yes, I ran it as x7 with Twin Ions (boy did those come in handy).
I am definitely going to have to try different setups and find what works for me. Thank you.
EDIT: I think you're right, @Stay On The Leader , I need to run an HLC GUNBOAT with this. The HLC is enough of a threat and glass cannon to draw heat off of Vynder.
Now this means I need to buy a 5th GUNBOAT because my wife insists on have three for herself. Sigh.
The one downside I will say of the Nu is that it is the opposite of the defender. It's much easier to focus down as the target of opportunity and it is really only effective in range 2-3. It's probably true that the defender is easily ignorable, but it moves quickly while still being able to fire and can push forward to get R1 shots (if ignored) that are more potent. You don't care if you lose either one, but I would say you won't get many quality shots against a good opponent with the nu. If you're coordinating your maneuvers well, the fact that the delta fires last against a target can make up for the lack of double mods (since you've hopefully already stripped tokens). That said, you probably have some other options there. I'm not sure of the rest of your list, but I think a PS4 silences fits really well there, too, if you can find points for optics, thrusters, fcs.
Edited by AlexW
7 minutes ago, AlexW said:The one downside I will say of the Nu is that it is the opposite of the defender. It's much easier to focus down as the target of opportunity and it is really only effective in range 2-3. It's probably true that the defender is easily ignorable, but it moves quickly while still being able to fire and can push forward to get R1 shots (if ignored) that are more potent. You don't care if you lose either one, but I would say you won't get many quality shots against a good opponent with the nu. If you're coordinating your maneuvers well, the fact that the delta fires last against a target can make up for the lack of double mods (since you've hopefully already stripped tokens). That said, you probably have some other options there. I'm not sure of the rest of your list, but I think a PS4 silences fits really well there, too, if you can find points for optics, thrusters, fcs.
That IS true, the Defender was a real pain in the butt to the opposition in exactly the ways you describe, and it's fun to fly as well. I already considered a Silencer, but not enough points. The Defender will dogfight better and get more shots over the long game.
Its not so much a "How do you flank?" But more as a "Why do you flank?".
You can flank with any ship you want as long as it serves the good of your squad. You dont need a glass cannon like backstabber or pure sabaac. Glass cannons just have to natural flank cause (Backstabbers ability basically says "You a flanker, Yo!") jousting is a death sentence majority of the time unless you are in the rebel faction and have Fenn and Lowhhrick protecting your butt. Whether Pure Sabaac is in a group or out on his own, he is most likely priority #1, so flanking with him provides a strategic advantage for your squad . Vessery same thing, he draws all the aggro, everytime. He doesnt need to be near your squad, just needs a lock on the enemy which someone like QD+FCS can do from range 3 through a rock.
AlexW had it right on, as its your opponents choice and you just need multiple bad decisions for your opponent to make.
Example: In store champs I took two TLT Scurrgs with Cruise missiles and LRS along with a Party Bus. Seems like a straight up jousting list, but I flanked, with whoever my opponent chose not to go after, a good chunk of the time by just setting them up on opposite corners.
This allowed my opponent to either joust the Bus, allowing my scurrgs to blaze in with 4 speeds and fire 5 dice cruise missiles. Or come after my Scurrgs and have the bus behind them, making life super easy as my bus does 1 straights all day. Majority of the time it was "take out the bus", and I got quite a few 5 dice Cruisers off taking regen Norra out in two rounds, Dash out in three rounds, Miranda out in two rounds.
None of my three ships are glass cannon typical "flankers" but they served up my opponents with two bad options. I had no decision in it as I was ps1 and ps2. My opponent chose his death sentence, and I adapted.
Ive recently used HLC wired Karsabi and toss him in flanking formation. If opponent ignores him (never happened), lol, I just 1 straight/bank for days and unload. If they go after after, slam away and turn around. His ship with HLC benefits from flanking because if enemy ships are flying away from you, you can keep that range 2/3. If they come after you, the slam gets away, or can slam into an enemy ship for protection.
Lieutenant Karsabi (24) w/ Wired (1) , Heavy Laser Cannon (7) , Linked Battery (2) , Long-Range Scanners (0) , XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)
Rho Squadron Veteran (21) w/ Deadeye (1) , Extra Munitions (2) , Harpoon Missiles (4) , Guidance Chips (0)
"Quickdraw" (29) w/ Veteran Instincts (1) , Fire-Control System (2) , Advanced Optics (2) , Lightweight Frame (2)[/i, Special Ops Training (0)
Total: 99
Just picture Karsabi as the flanker in StayOnTheLeaders pictures with QD and Rho heading for joust. If the opponent chooses Karsabi, the Rho can easily get two Harpoons off before beginning reload process. If they go for Rho/QD, Karsabi is unloading with HLC multiple times.
Now picture them all flying in a nice formation. Your opponent just points all his arcs at your squad, and can rush into to close range 1, weakening two thirds of your squads attacks by doing so, and gunboats cant kturn so advantage to them the following round as well.
Flanking is about bad decision for your opponents, and improving your ships abilities.
25 minutes ago, wurms said:You can flank with any ship you want as long as it serves the good of your squad. You dont need a glass cannon like backstabber or pure sabaac.
I absolutely agree with this. Too many people don't understand the value of a multi-vectored approach and think it is just certain ships. It's easier to do with more maneuverable ships. Lists like the one you managed to use it effectively show that anything can work, you just need the spacial recognition/practice to understand how to get all your ships in the right place at the right time.
51 minutes ago, wurms said:Jousting is a death sentence majority of the time unless you are in the rebel faction and have Fenn and Lowhhrick protecting your butt.
Great overall post, as well as several others, thanks. I pulled this quote out because this in particular is why I'm trying to relearn X-Wing. I was a formation flyer with Biggs, and when he got nerfed I thought the whole Rebel faction was going to die with him, so I jumped ship to Scum and Empire. Turns out Rebels are fine now, but I don't want to fly jousters anymore after trying other things.
5 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:
Great overall post, as well as several others, thanks. I pulled this quote out because this in particular is why I'm trying to relearn X-Wing. I was a formation flyer with Biggs, and when he got nerfed I thought the whole Rebel faction was going to die with him, so I jumped ship to Scum and Empire. Turns out Rebels are fine now, but I don't want to fly jousters anymore after trying other things.
My brother was same way. Pure formation flyer. He has now gone to the dark side and is flying PTL Kylo for the next two months!
@wurms makes lots of excellent points.
1 hour ago, wurms said:Its not so much a "How do you flank?" But more as a "Why do you flank?".
This. There are times you won't want or need to flank, there are times when it is invaluable to. It's entirely situational. If you know for a fact your squad's jousting value is better than your opponents, you'll want to try and force the joust. If you have the chance to focus down a ship or want to quickly take out a priority target, then you'll probably want to do that. If you're concerned about facing a list head on, or want to try and disrupt your opponent's plans, that's when you flank.
Example: I played a game at the UK Open where my opponent set up in a solid four-ship formation. He had action economy, modifiers and pilot skill on his side, so I certainly didn't want to joust him. I quickly repositioned following deployment, throwing a Rookie Pilot up either flank and keeping my third Rookie and Ace in the centre. As I hoped, he sent his formation at the ace, who turned away from the joust before they got into range. The next turn, my flanking X-Wings hit his formation from either side and got a couple of shots in unopposed. The turn after that, he'd peeled off half his formation to face the flankers, while my Ace and third Rookie had turned back into the battle. All four of my ships were facing his and able to focus fire, his ships were all facing different directions.
1 hour ago, wurms said:You can flank with any ship you want as long as it serves the good of your squad.
This. Although I would say that the best flankers are cheap ships that can cause a nuisance of themselves. You wouldn't usually want to try to flank with your most expensive or most dangerous ship, as that's a recipe for them getting focused down. There's exceptions - some highly mobile aces like Soontir, the Inquisitor or Poe for example, when you have another big threat in your squad - but ideally you want to flank with a ship that forces the bad decisions @wurms talks about - ships that won't hand your opponent the game if you lose them, but are also impossible for them to ignore for long
10 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:Although I would say that the best flankers are cheap ships that can cause a nuisance of themselves. You wouldn't usually want to try to flank with your most expensive or most dangerous ship, as that's a recipe for them getting focused down. There's exceptions - some highly mobile aces like Soontir, the Inquisitor or Poe for example, when you have another big threat in your squad - but ideally you want to flank with a ship that forces the bad decisions @wurms talks about - ships that won't hand your opponent the game if you lose them, but are also impossible for them to ignore for long
That is a tricky part of my situation. My QD is worth 33, my Delta is 29, and Vynder is 38. The thing that is good is that Vynder is fast enough to SLAM out to range three and take a Focus if need be - and being at PS7 is decent.
9 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:That is a tricky part of my situation. My QD is worth 33, my Delta is 29, and Vynder is 38. The thing that is good is that Vynder is fast enough to SLAM out to range three and take a Focus if need be - and being at PS7 is decent.
Sounds ideal. Ships with SLAM make excellent flankers due to hpw quickly they can cross the board and reposition. That Vynder can fire following a SLAM is an added bonus.
QD will usually be the priority target in your list, and the Delta is better suited to be a blocker, helping to line up shots for QD. Don't afraid to slow roll Vynder behind the other two, then quickly double-3-SLAM once they've engaged to get into a dangerous position.
8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:Sounds ideal. Ships with SLAM make excellent flankers due to hpw quickly they can cross the board and reposition. That Vynder can fire following a SLAM is an added bonus.
QD will usually be the priority target in your list, and the Delta is better suited to be a blocker, helping to line up shots for QD. Don't afraid to slow roll Vynder behind the other two, then quickly double-3-SLAM once they've engaged to get into a dangerous position.
Few things are as fun as Vynder behind a couple of wookies firing a missile turn after turn.
7 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:Few things are as fun as Vynder behind a couple of wookies firing a missile turn after turn.
Apart from a Defender blocking their turns, stopping them from turning around and reinforcing
1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:Apart from a Defender blocking their turns, stopping them from turning around and reinforcing
