2 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

List building is a fun and important part of the game, but with the easy access to the tops list and the principles that make them up being on line, it really is not that important of a skill.

Lists should be focused, have a plan for victory, and we well reasoned, but when they aim to win by exploiting the known weaknesses of the rule set to limit interaction, it is an abuse that lessens the experience for both parties, both the one running the list that has the advantage, and the one that is at the disadvantage.

The only fight worth winning ins a fair one, in a setting where we do this as an activity between 2 adults looking to engage in an intellectual contest. This is NOT WAR, these peole you are playing are friends and they deserve a fair game, just like you hope to have.

The only lists that really abuse the rule set are the high bid high activation fleets. And those fleets tend to have 1 or 2 ships that are engaging. If you don't have first player, you can't last/first.

Max squads, with Relay or not, are well within the rules of the game. FFG wrote Relay and considering they have not nerfed it after the FAQ that nerfed Rieekan aces, it appears Relay is working as intended.

The Fish Farm wins via objectives, which is an important part of the game. The only abuse in that fleet is high activation, but it still has 1 ship capable of dealing damage.

Honestly, the more you push your stance, the more I want you to back it up. If your philosophy is correct, you should be able to win every game with these skew lists if I play a generalist fleet right?

You have to admit, it's impressive that a thread about a day of events five days ago is still keeping us amused. Armada meta discussions are the circular gift that keeps giving.

11 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

Lists should be focused, have a plan for victory, and we well reasoned, but when they aim to win by exploiting the known weaknesses of the rule set to limit interaction, it is an abuse that lessens the experience for both parties, both the one running the list that has the advantage, and the one that is at the disadvantage.

The problem here is that everyone thinks this checklist for a good fleet describes their list. Did you have an example that you think qualifies? Cause I think my Mothma MC30 swarm fits all of your requirements here.

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The problem here is that everyone thinks this checklist for a good fleet describes their list. Did you have an example that you think qualifies? Cause I think my Mothma MC30 swarm fits all of your requirements here.

Isn't that the fleet that is hard countered by Yavaris+Luke? Since everything rerolls to a hit+crit? Doesn't sound imbalanced to me.

Just now, AdmiralYor said:

Isn't that the fleet that is hard countered by Yavaris+Luke? Since everything rerolls to a hit+crit? Doesn't sound imbalanced to me.

Yea but now you're running a skew/overload list because you're trying to club baby seals with Yavaris.

May as well commit seppuku because you can't regain your honor after winning.

50 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

but with the easy access to the tops list and the principles that make them up being on line, it really is not that important of a skill.

And specifically screw you.

So because we put in the hardwork so others can netlist of us its not an important skill?

Because I can get my fixed down the garage, mechanics arent important. No just no.

Is this your appreciation of the bloggers, data gatherers, fleet helpers, vassal players and all the other hardworking members of the community who make your list building "easy"?

Well done on simultaneously insulting a large part of the community with a single sentence. Its impressive.

@thecactusman17 you raise a decent argument. I dont want to go into that. I'm not ignoring you because I think you are wrong, but because I have desire to argue that one.

Thought it best to clarify.

8 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

@Space_Cowboy17 You're the best man. I really appreciate your fleet builds. Keep up the good work.

FTFY

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

FTFY

You didnt see the first draft. This was tempered....

And lol, appreciate "your fleet builds".... yeah. Definitely

26 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

List building is a fun and important part of the game, but with the easy access to the tops list and the principles that make them up being on line, it really is not that important of a skill.

Lists should be focused, have a plan for victory, and we well reasoned, but when they aim to win by exploiting the known weaknesses of the rule set to limit interaction, it is an abuse that lessens the experience for both parties, both the one running the list that has the advantage, and the one that is at the disadvantage.

The only fight worth winning ins a fair one, in a setting where we do this as an activity between 2 adults looking to engage in an intellectual contest. This is NOT WAR, these peole you are playing are friends and they deserve a fair game, just like you hope to have.

/looks at Norm Weir's Toronto Regional list

Ummm...yeah...that's not really what Armada is about. You can't netlist this game. You just can't. The minute details of how to fly the list are incredibly unique to each player. You keep seeing the top players at the top with very different lists, which says to me their skill matters more than the list itself. If you don't believe me, ask @JJs Juggernaut for a game some time. He'll pull some crazy idea out of his *** and likely beat you down while blindfolded. Happens to me on a regular basis, even when I'm flying something "overpowered" like GHY.

27 minutes ago, AdmiralYor said:

You have to admit, it's impressive that a thread about a day of events five days ago is still keeping us amused. Armada meta discussions are the circular gift that keeps giving.

Yeah, it's a deep, dark pit that just keeps giving and giving.

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Yeah, it's a deep, dark pit that just keeps giving and giving.

Golden ages really are the worst.

34 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

Lists that are built to have a mix of ship and squadron fire power, and that do not intend to try and cash in on the sad, logical absurdity that we should all avoid, that is the entire last/first mechanic, are less prone to match up dependency.

Last/first is unfortunately hardwired into black die swarms. Tell me where I park my MC30s to get black range shots on an ISD without eating a front arc if the ISD will act after me. How many hammerheads do I need to charge a Cymoon with to have a fair chance of taking it down? What are the expected MOV results from that confrontation?

Because it really feels like it would no longer be possible to fly those sorts of lists effectively.

The solution here is we all just run the same list.

26 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

You didnt see the first draft. This was tempered....

And lol, appreciate "your fleet builds".... yeah. Definitely

Oh no I saw it lol I've had this thread open for an hour reading all the replies while I do paper work. I wanted to say the same thing.

7 minutes ago, Palanthas said:

The solution here is we all just run the same list.

I vote:

Name: Untitled Fleet
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault:
Defense:
Navigation:

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• Admiral Ackbar (38)
= 74 Points

Squadrons:
• Lieutenant Blount (14)
• 17 x Z-95 Headhunter Squadron (119)
= 133 Points

Total Points: 387

11 Activations, 20 deployments. **** you fish farm.

Yes, I acknowledge you could drop Ackbar to Dodonna and get an 11th Transport or a 31 point bid

7 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Oh no I saw it lol I've had this thread open for an hour reading all the replies while I do paper work. I wanted to say the same thing.

No. I mean the unpublished one....

31 minutes ago, Church14 said:

11 Activations, 20 deployments. **** you fish farm.

Yes, I acknowledge you could drop Ackbar to Dodonna and get an 11th Transport or a 31 point bid

I feel like you need to add a vcx or two just to emphasize your point...

58 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

The only lists that really abuse the rule set are the high bid high activation fleets. And those fleets tend to have 1 or 2 ships that are engaging. If you don't have first player, you can't last/first.

Max squads, with Relay or not, are well within the rules of the game. FFG wrote Relay and considering they have not nerfed it after the FAQ that nerfed Rieekan aces, it appears Relay is working as intended.

The Fish Farm wins via objectives, which is an important part of the game. The only abuse in that fleet is high activation, but it still has 1 ship capable of dealing damage.

Honestly, the more you push your stance, the more I want you to back it up. If your philosophy is correct, you should be able to win every game with these skew lists if I play a generalist fleet right?

As someone playing a first-last high bid high activation list with great frequency, I need to point out that these lists are far less prevalent now for good reason: in and of itself, this composition is no longer tremendously powerful for tournament play. It limits your potential scoring opportunities and leaves you vulnerable to many competent squadron compositions. Many of the top performing fleets since wave 6 currently have 5 or fewer activations and bids of under 10 points, but over a hundred points in squadrons and at least as much in ships dedicated to activating them. Yes, it's really fun to smash a heavily shielded Aspiration down with a brutal first-last, but (barely) winning my Fleet Patrol game yesterday against @Villakarvarousku depended heavily on knocking out his dedicated pocket carrier, a GR75 flotilla that was going to activate fully half of his squadron compliment each turn. Hardly the sort of glamorous task typically associated with a first-last BTAvenger.

I traded a BTAvenger for a CR90B and a Torryn Farr flotilla. It was crucial to winning that game. That's not the mark of a tremendous bid/activation advantage. Frequently, we're starting to see players dip down into the teens so they can bid... for second.

When we start looking at these new fleet compositions, we see a multi-part set of overlapping redundancies designed for two purposes: defeating the absolute minimal number of enemy ships or squadrons to gain a point advantage, farming objectives to receive an overwhelming score advantage that can't be recovered by a fleet which isn't nearly mirrored in its intent if not its content, and a third element inherent to this design is that an opponent killing any one ship or squadron typically isn't enough to gain a points advantage against the list, and often leaves the attacker exposed to immediate retaliation.

This has also lead to samey lists making it to the top of major events such as Worlds and GenCon and NOVA and Euro Champs, because many of these events have a format change midway through the tournament . This format change to elimination (from Swiss) means that lists which can't achieve single digit point gains quickly have a tremendous disadvantage when opposing ships or squadrons destroy the cheapest target available and flee the fight, leaving one side incapable of responding. It also rewards carrier MSU spam of cheap ships and squadrons which disallow their opponents to rack up large scores quickly.

20 minutes ago, themightyhedgehog said:

I feel like you need to add a vcx or two just to emphasize your point...

Yeah, I considered 8 VCXs as well.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

I vote:

Name: Untitled Fleet
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault:
Defense:
Navigation:

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
= 18 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• Admiral Ackbar (38)
= 74 Points

Squadrons:
• Lieutenant Blount (14)
• 17 x Z-95 Headhunter Squadron (119)
= 133 Points

Total Points: 387

11 Activations, 20 deployments. **** you fish farm.

Yes, I acknowledge you could drop Ackbar to Dodonna and get an 11th Transport or a 31 point bid

To be legal you need a ship to carry the admiral but then again that might be the challenge of running this list for everyone

32 minutes ago, Palanthas said:

To be legal you need a ship to carry the admiral but then again that might be the challenge of running this list for everyone

He's got a hammerhead in there. It's legal.

1 hour ago, rasproteus said:

He's got a hammerhead in there. It's legal.

I missed it....reading failure

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

As someone playing a first-last high bid high activation list with great frequency, I need to point out that these lists are far less prevalent now for good reason: in and of itself, this composition is no longer tremendously powerful for tournament play. It limits your potential scoring opportunities and leaves you vulnerable to many competent squadron compositions. Many of the top performing fleets since wave 6 currently have 5 or fewer activations and bids of under 10 points, but over a hundred points in squadrons and at least as much in ships dedicated to activating them. Yes, it's really fun to smash a heavily shielded Aspiration down with a brutal first-last, but (barely) winning my Fleet Patrol game yesterday against @Villakarvarousku depended heavily on knocking out his dedicated pocket carrier, a GR75 flotilla that was going to activate fully half of his squadron compliment each turn. Hardly the sort of glamorous task typically associated with a first-last BTAvenger.

I traded a BTAvenger for a CR90B and a Torryn Farr flotilla. It was crucial to winning that game. That's not the mark of a tremendous bid/activation advantage. Frequently, we're starting to see players dip down into the teens so they can bid... for second.

When we start looking at these new fleet compositions, we see a multi-part set of overlapping redundancies designed for two purposes: defeating the absolute minimal number of enemy ships or squadrons to gain a point advantage, farming objectives to receive an overwhelming score advantage that can't be recovered by a fleet which isn't nearly mirrored in its intent if not its content, and a third element inherent to this design is that an opponent killing any one ship or squadron typically isn't enough to gain a points advantage against the list, and often leaves the attacker exposed to immediate retaliation.

This has also lead to samey lists making it to the top of major events such as Worlds and GenCon and NOVA and Euro Champs, because many of these events have a format change midway through the tournament . This format change to elimination (from Swiss) means that lists which can't achieve single digit point gains quickly have a tremendous disadvantage when opposing ships or squadrons destroy the cheapest target available and flee the fight, leaving one side incapable of responding. It also rewards carrier MSU spam of cheap ships and squadrons which disallow their opponents to rack up large scores quickly.

I'm fully aware of this and don't understand how this is relevant to what I said. I didn't state that high activation fleets are crushing everyone. I said last/first is an exploit of the mechanics.

My reply was in regard to building fleets within the rule set we are allowed and how it's not some terrible skew or overload or whatever bull **** you want to call it.

The issue is not that we have illegal list building, it's that we have fleets that seem to terribly limit player response. The issue with the lists we're seeing now is that there's no effective counterplay without creating a mirror match situation. This isn't healthy or sustainable long term, just like the super-bid no squadron last first Demo builds have fallen largely by the wayside.