Okay, so it's inevitable that folks are going to want to put together the ground combat miniatures game with the space combat miniatures game, right? This thread is just to start spitballing how to do it. Purely speculative at this point, as we don't even have a rulebook for Legion yet -- but where would we be without rampant speculation?

I think we can already start daydreaming about some basics, though. The simplest way to combine these two games in a Corellian Conflict Campaign setting (which I'm going to by default because I don't want to reinvent the wheel, just add stuff to it) is to have Armada players and Legion players on each team in equal numbers, and treat the Legion armies the same as your Armada fleets during the Strategy phase. In other words, you assign them to attack locations (or defend attacks), which creates a game in the Battle phase. Some locations are fought over with fleets, others with armies. Not great, but simple.

With any such combination, we'd need to hash out how to handle resource points for the Legion armies. Maybe 1 resource point in Armada = 2 resource points in Legion? Five points?

I suppose we could first consider whether or not the Legion side of things will include growing your army with more resources the way fleets can grow from 400 to 500 points. I know we'd all like to include that possibility, but it just occurred to me that in a game where the Legion side was part of a 2-step process for taking over a location (first you win the fleet battle, then you are able to assault it with ground troops) then keeping the Legion armies fixed could combat some of the snowballing issues other threads are currently talking about. Yeah, your fleet might get outgunned by 100 points, but it's an even fight on the ground. I dunno. On the other hand, having to spread your points around to grow both fleets and armies might be enough to keep the snowballing from going too fast.

Anyway, I just wanted to raise the topic since I can't be the only person contemplating this. I don't even intend to *get* Legion, and I'm wondering how to make it work.

There is of course a scale difference with Legion games a fraction of the size of what an ISD has in its cargo bay. A bit of orbital bombardment or a strike by 24 TIE-Bombers could plaster such a large area.

This shouldn't stop you using Legion to play the hilights of a planetary assault or the special raid missions to destroy shield generators or steal plans. Many military objectives can't be achieved by the great-mace-in-the-face orbital bombardment treatment. Boots on the ground (or 3ft above the ground for those on speeder bikes) are important.

I can see a CC round of 3 Armada games along side a Legion scenario ot two. Watch out for duplicating unique characters from each game. Luke can't fly his squadron in Armada and at the same time light sabre the nether regions of a passing AT-AT in a Legion game. Of course we have been able to include X-Wing scenarios since the beginning too for some long range fighter missions.

Adding one special mission of Assault, Legion or X-Wing to each CC round with three Armada games would be my preference. On odd campaign turns the imperials choose the special mission game to be played. On even turns the Glaxit guys choose. Each special mission gives a roll on a 1D6 chart to show the reward to the victor such as...

1. Supply dump: gain 10 economic points.
2. Sabotage: remove a non unique upgrade from a ship of your choice. Can't be replaced until after the next campaign economic phase.
3. Interdict supplies: choose one enemy squadron or small or medium ship, it cannot be unscarred this turn.
4. Defence plans: enemy planetary ion cannons fire at -1 dice next round.
5. Vital intelligence: after next rounds fleets have been paired with opponents choose one of the games, it is worth one extra campaign point to the victors of that game.
6. Inspiring PR coup: gain one campaign point.

3 hours ago, Mad Cat said:

There is of course a scale difference with Legion games a fraction of the size of what an ISD has in its cargo bay. A bit of orbital bombardment or a strike by 24 TIE-Bombers could plaster such a large area.

Except this is Star Wars. No one EVER uses the actual full capacity of their weapons and complements.

I was thinking of this after the game was announced. A way to play Star Wars battlefront on a tabletop. Due to the scale a full ground battle might be difficult, but could be see a special objective played out. If this can be done, I think it'll cool and fun. ?

I'm going to do it. It will be an extension to the Galactic Civil War Campaign that is currently being tested right now.

I have not refined any ideas yet, but here are my thoughts.

1. Fleets will be required to move armies from planet to planet. So if you lose a fleet, you will lose an army, just like it happened in WWII.
2. To capture a planet, you will have to maintain both space and land control. Besieging a planet will be a 2 part campaign. First, you'll have to break through the defending fleet in orbit, then land troops to clear enemy positions.
   1. This will either be a simple win both battles and you gain control, or a complex "pick your strategy" that will grant bonuses if you succeed.
      1. For example, you are playing as the Empire and besieging a Rebel planet. You have the element of surprise, and catch the defenders out of position. You decide launch a joint ground invasion since there is an opening in the planetary defenses, and to engage the ground forces before they can set up defensive position.
         1. Objective: Your opponent deploys all force before you do (just like Superior or Solar). Add 4 small base ships (transports) to your fleet. These represent the first wave of ground forces you are deploying to the planet surface. You must have at least 2 transports move into your opponents deployment zone and fly off the map in order to gain a bonus in the Legion portion of the battle.
            1. Transports are limited to speed 2 and vulnerable to squadrons - while defending from a squadron, the attacker may use it's anti-squadron armament while attacking. 3 hull, 2 scatter.
   2. The ground portion will probably be objective based, and when you complete an objective you will be resupplied with more forces.
      1. Defending a planet will allow you to position more defenses and you will be able to use turrets.
         1. If the attacker is able to send transports early, the defender will not be able to ready defenses.
      2. Attacking a planet will require storming the base and killing the defenders, or forcing them to retreat.
3. Resource Points will be split between the Fleet and Army. You will essentially "redeem" RP based on what you are buying. Since Legion is 800 points, double Armada, I'd probably double Legion points.
4. Base defense will be important. You can construct hanger bays to grant Fighter Wing, or planetary defenses to grant Planetary Ion Cannon.
5. Mining bases will essentially be outposts that require the 2 part battle in order to win.
6. All uniques are limit 1 per battle. So if you surprise attack a fleet with Vader, Vader is not allowed in the ground portion unless you do a standard attack, where you first play Armada and win, and then Vader can go to the surface to fight.
   1. If a unique dies in any format, it will be gone for good.
7. Boarding ships offers a complex mechanic where you must play a Legion battle inside the ship.

I've been thinking about this a lot but I don't have a lot of free time to run through all the mechanics and balance, as well as making sure the rules are not too cumbersome for a new player to follow. I'd expect a rule set from me in the next few months once I finally get to play Legion.

13 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Boarding ships offers a complex mechanic where you must play a Legion battle inside the ship.

This in particular sounds really awesome.

For thematic battles, find a floor plan schematic for each type of ship in Armada, and modify the Legion map depending on which is being boarded.

3 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

This in particular sounds really awesome.

For thematic battles, find a floor plan schematic for each type of ship in Armada, and modify the Legion map depending on which is being boarded.

It sounds good on paper, but I'm not sure how to incorporate it. I guess the disabled ship would have to survive the battle and then you play Legion. If you lose Legion then you destroy the ship. Might have a command value attached to the points value you get to use. So command 1 is 400, 2 is 600, and 3 is 800. Proceed to crush the enemy.

The real problem is the length of the campaign. If you have to do an Armada game, followed by a Legion game just to gain control of a planet, that will take forever to get through 1 sector. I'm 100% down for a year long campaign, but I know a lot of people don't have that attention span. We never finished our first CC game so I know I won't get a group to do a Legion/Armada campaign.

I was thinking something similar to what Undeadguy was saying. Without testing anything, here's my spitballing of ideas:

1) Ground presence determines planet loyalty.
2) Legion fights determine ground battles (duh).
3) Armada fights determine space battles (again, duh).
4) You cannot initiate a ground battle unless you control the space over the planet.
5) You cannot build a base unless you control the ground.
6) If you have a base on the planet, but do not have control over the space, your planet is considered blockaded, and you cannot receive resources from it.
7) In an ideal world, I would have it be 5v5, with each person deciding whether he wants to be an admiral or a general, though I suppose you could do it 2v2 or 3v3 and just allow each person to control 2 things (and they can decide whether it's 2 fleets or 2 armies, or 1 of each).
8) Specific planets would have to provide resources and refit points for space/ground, allowing you to tailor your strategy to your approach.
9) Probably something here about blockaded planets lose ground resources at a certain rate or the troops become scarred at a certain speed, or something. This will allow a dominant navy to blockade a planet to weaken the army there and then send in their weak army to take on the remaining forces and establish a base.

And if you really want to get into it, you can break off and have the squadron fights be X Wing based. Or better yet... Start with Rebellion as your campaign, play out space via Armada/X Wing, play out ground via Legion/IA, play out missions via Destiny. Why not make a 5hr game a 5 year game?

55 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

It sounds good on paper, but I'm not sure how to incorporate it. I guess the disabled ship would have to survive the battle and then you play Legion. If you lose Legion then you destroy the ship. Might have a command value attached to the points value you get to use. So command 1 is 400, 2 is 600, and 3 is 800. Proceed to crush the enemy.

The real problem is the length of the campaign. If you have to do an Armada game, followed by a Legion game just to gain control of a planet, that will take forever to get through 1 sector. I'm 100% down for a year long campaign, but I know a lot of people don't have that attention span. We never finished our first CC game so I know I won't get a group to do a Legion/Armada campaign.

Well I like long campaigns. Heck, I even dream about combining all of IA, Legion, X-Wing and Armada into one massive game. . .

Lets really get the ball rolling...

Star Wars Rebellion - This is our high level stuff. We assign points to each unit in the game to represent points for the other games (armada, legion, etc).

Each system in Rebellion is represented by a CC campaign where each system in CC actually represents a planet or moon in the Rebellion system. The points from the Rebellion game are used to draft Legion and Armada forces. Control of a system is only won if you control both space (armada) and ground (legion) of a planet (system).

When squadrons in Armada become engaged, X-wing is used to resolve this. If within range 1 of any Armada ships, then X-wing Epic rules/ships are utilized.

When missions are played in Rebellion, they are resolved using Imperial Assault missions.

When heroes clash with one another in Legion, Star Wars Duels is used.

So, ultimately when forces in Rebellion move to a new system, and entire CC campaign begins for control using Armada and Legion forces which are further broken down into X-wing and SWD as needed, while the Rebellion missions are being handled in IA. All in all, a single game of Rebellion should only take about 7 years to complete.

Any rules disputes are decided by double elimination tournaments of loopin' chewie.

"BUT WHAT OF THE DOWNTIME!" you scream? Just have someone running a SW RPG campaign that players can drop in and out of on the fly. Problem solved.

This game would require 26 people however. You need your 4 Rebellion players, 10 IA players, 6 Armada/Legion players, 2 x-wing players, 2 SWD players, 1 GM for the RPG, and finally an arbitrator to oversee the loopin' chewie brackets. Can't some people handle more than one role? ABSOLUTELY NOT! A chain of command must be preserved in order to strengthen the theme of the entire event. Cosplaying your role is encouraged (X-wing players wearing Imperial and Rebel pilot outfits for instance). All Imperial players are required to use a slight British accent, while Rebel players must speak with an American accent.

Allowances could be made to reduce rebellion, IA, and Armada/Legion player numbers, but this can affect play quality, so do so at your own risk. IA for instance is supposed to be 1v4 with the defender always playing the imperial side in a campaign setting. However, you could reduce this to a 1v1 competitive setting with each die that you could bring to a mission roll being instead representative of points for the IA match. Again, gameplay can be negatively affected by this, but if reducing the required numbers of players from 26 to a bare minimum of 16 helps make the game more playable, then such concessions should be considered.

On the other hand, each leader in Rebellion could be assigned an entire 'play group' including all players below the rebellion level. With this in mind, you could recruit a total of 356 players for a true military conquest style game. While requiring considerably more people, we find that the game plays out much quicker this way as multiple campaigns can be playing out at the same time making the Rebellion turns go quicker. At this point, some players find it easier to just simply LARP the battles, so feel free to get creative.

The question is, how complex do you want to get about tying these games together? I just had a brief convo with a local X-Winger about it and I believe the easiest way to do it is to have the different games give bonuses to the others based on victories; i.e. your special forces X-Wing squadron tears up the repair yards at Corellia, now the opposing Armada guys lack those 5 repair points, your team's armada won the battle over the planet you're assaulting, now you get orbital strikes. If your legion force wants to strike somewhere completely separate from the X-wing and Armada force that's fine, but they won't enjoy the benefit of the added support, as in real conflict combined arms is always superior but limits your scope of operations.

I'd submit this as a campaign where the different games aren't locked to each other( the legion and x-wing guys can strike wherever they want) however there are different risks and rewards for coordinating on a given location or spreading out. The downtime shouldn't be too bad in this type of campaign either provided each game is on a different day and each team plays consistently.

2 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

Lets really get the ball rolling...

Star Wars Rebellion - This is our high level stuff. We assign points to each unit in the game to represent points for the other games (armada, legion, etc).

Each system in Rebellion is represented by a CC campaign where each system in CC actually represents a planet or moon in the Rebellion system. The points from the Rebellion game are used to draft Legion and Armada forces. Control of a system is only won if you control both space (armada) and ground (legion) of a planet (system).

When squadrons in Armada become engaged, X-wing is used to resolve this. If within range 1 of any Armada ships, then X-wing Epic rules/ships are utilized.

When missions are played in Rebellion, they are resolved using Imperial Assault missions.

When heroes clash with one another in Legion, Star Wars Duels is used.

So, ultimately when forces in Rebellion move to a new system, and entire CC campaign begins for control using Armada and Legion forces which are further broken down into X-wing and SWD as needed, while the Rebellion missions are being handled in IA. All in all, a single game of Rebellion should only take about 7 years to complete.

Any rules disputes are decided by double elimination tournaments of loopin' chewie.

"BUT WHAT OF THE DOWNTIME!" you scream? Just have someone running a SW RPG campaign that players can drop in and out of on the fly. Problem solved.

This game would require 26 people however. You need your 4 Rebellion players, 10 IA players, 6 Armada/Legion players, 2 x-wing players, 2 SWD players, 1 GM for the RPG, and finally an arbitrator to oversee the loopin' chewie brackets. Can't some people handle more than one role? ABSOLUTELY NOT! A chain of command must be preserved in order to strengthen the theme of the entire event. Cosplaying your role is encouraged (X-wing players wearing Imperial and Rebel pilot outfits for instance). All Imperial players are required to use a slight British accent, while Rebel players must speak with an American accent.

Allowances could be made to reduce rebellion, IA, and Armada/Legion player numbers, but this can affect play quality, so do so at your own risk. IA for instance is supposed to be 1v4 with the defender always playing the imperial side in a campaign setting. However, you could reduce this to a 1v1 competitive setting with each die that you could bring to a mission roll being instead representative of points for the IA match. Again, gameplay can be negatively affected by this, but if reducing the required numbers of players from 26 to a bare minimum of 16 helps make the game more playable, then such concessions should be considered.

On the other hand, each leader in Rebellion could be assigned an entire 'play group' including all players below the rebellion level. With this in mind, you could recruit a total of 356 players for a true military conquest style game. While requiring considerably more people, we find that the game plays out much quicker this way as multiple campaigns can be playing out at the same time making the Rebellion turns go quicker. At this point, some players find it easier to just simply LARP the battles, so feel free to get creative.

If I had the time and personnel, I would totally do this. With several more rules too. For example, I'd replace the CC with Undeadguy's GCW, or some blend thereof. Maybe get rid of the card games though, as those don't interest me as a player. Still, this is the stuff [my] dreams are made of.

19 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

If I had the time and personnel, I would totally do this. With several more rules too. For example, I'd replace the CC with Undeadguy's GCW, or some blend thereof. Maybe get rid of the card games though, as those don't interest me as a player. Still, this is the stuff [my] dreams are made of.

Play a game of Risk where each battle is resolved by a game of Stratego wherein each fight is resolved by a bout of Mortal Kombat.

These are good ideas! And I think we're thinking along similar lines about what the issues/decision points need to be. I agree with Mad Cat, above, in viewing the actual game of Legion as being just a piece of a larger battle, just focusing on the most decisive, interesting part where the heroes are operating.

My further ideas for integrating it into CC assume that there can only be two Legion forces per team, as the initial release only has two commanders for each side. So let's assume we have 2 or 3 fleets per team and 1 or 2 armies per team.

When assigning a fleet to an attack or defense in the Strategy Phase, you can assign one of your armies to it.

If a fleet battle takes place without any accompanying armies, treat it as you normally would. Whoever wins the high ground of space, controls the location. Otherwise, control of a location is decided by the ground forces (note that if the fleet-to-army ratio makes it possible that one side might commit an army but the other doesn't, this counts as a win by whoever's army showed up, albeit a boring one). Winning the ground battle gets you the right to build a base or outpost, and you immediately get the victory points for that location.

Neutral locations resolve the fleet battle and army battle during the same campaign turn, occurring simultaneously. If you win both the ground and space battle, you control the location. Congratulations! If one side won the ground battle but not the space battle, the planet is blockaded . The side that won the ground battle may build a base or outpost there, but receives no resources (or strategic resources) from it while it is blockaded. On the next campaign turn, during the strategic phase, the winner of space battle can choose to continue the blockade by committing the same fleet to the location that won the battle the previous turn. This uses up an attack by the blockading team, but when the battle is played, the blockading fleet is considered to be the defender. If the blockading fleet is defeated, the blockade is lifted; if not, the blockade continues.

Enemy bases or outposts are treated a little differently. They require a 2-stage process to conquer. First, you must attack the location with your fleet -- you do not need to commit an army to this attack. Winning the fleet battle means that you are now besieging the location. On the next Strategic Phase you can commit a fleet and an army to a besieged location. This creates a Legion battle there, and the winner controls the location. It also creates another fleet battle there, with the besieging fleet treated as the defender, even though it cost an attack to continue the siege. While a location is besieged, a base defense objective is not played there (it had to be played once in order to end up being under siege in the first place). If the location changes hands and a new base is built there, it cannot start the next campaign turn in a besieged status, regardless of how the fleet battle turned out. However, you don't get resources from the new base if you lost the fleet battle this turn.

(For example: Rebels attack Corellia on Turn 1. A base defense objective is played, and the Rebels win. Corellia is now under siege. On Turn 2, the Rebels keep their fleet at Corellia to keep the siege up and send in the ground forces. Both an Armada battle and a Legion battle are fought this turn. If the Imperials hold out on the ground and break the siege above, the Rebels will have to start all over again and face Corellia's base defense objective if they try again on Turn 3. However, the Rebels win the Legion battle and take control of Corellia. The Imperials do win the space battle (the Imperial player was the attacker and the Rebel player was the defender here, even though it "cost" an attack during the Strategy phase to keep up the siege). During Turn 2's management phase, the Rebels build a base at Corellia. They get no resources from it this turn. On Turn 3, If the Imperials want to attack Corellia, they will have to contend with its base defense objective -- they don't get to automatically have it under siege just because they won the fleet battle there on Turn 2.)

As an optional rule, you CAN assault a base or outpost with ground forces on the same turn that you attack it with your fleet. However, the price for doing this is that during setup for the Legion game, the defender gets to *pick* the objective, deployment, and condition cards. (They should probably get to place all or most of the terrain, too.) Furthermore, if the fleet's attack fails, you don't get to claim the planet even if you win the ground battle. You must win both, and do so against a base defense objective in Armada and a possible tactical disadvantage on the ground.

This would draw out the process of attacking enemy bases, but you'd have to weigh besieging or blockading a planet to deny the enemy resources, or just letting it go and attacking somewhere else next turn.

Edit: Oh, and during any strategy phase, you can commit both comanders to field a force of up to 1000 points.

I would love some standard crossover rules, because even though I’ve Been mulling over a Scarif scenario for awhile now, it still seems a little messy. Been thinking something like this:

1) Armada large ships and X-wing minis deploy together with a shield gate in the center of a 6x3 play area.

2) X-wing minis cannot attack armada ships and vice versa. X-wing ships will attempt to access the shield gate. at the end of round 4 the shield gate closes, and all X-wing minis will be converted in armada fighter squadrons. (U-wings that don’t make it will be turned in Hwks for simplicity.). The shield gate will then become a station with defenses. Players then play as normal.

Meanwhile:

legion players (and at the beginning of round 5, x-wing players that managed to get models through the shield gate) deploy on a beach map setting. X-wing minis will get special rules when attacking legion units. (Waiting for legion to drop so I can do the correct dice conversions). Goal will be from original rogue one draft: rebels must cross the base to the relay station on the beach, while empire defends.

Other special rules:

Death Star Nukes the legion board at the end of turn 9. Rebels will have 3 turns to achieve their ground win condition before the blast hits. (Extra special rules about escape if they manage to win early, but I’ll get to that later).

Vader’s ISD shows up beginning of turn 11. (Special hyperspace rules).

Total rounds Will be 12.

On 2/16/2018 at 10:00 AM, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Well I like long campaigns. Heck, I even dream about combining all of IA, Legion, X-Wing and Armada into one massive game. . .

Star Wars: The Russian Nesting Doll Campaign:

Play Rebellion. When fleets engage, play Armada. When squadrons engage in Armada, play X-Wing. When armies engage in Rebellion, play Legion. When troops fight each other in Legion, play Destiny. Sprinkle Star Wars RPG elements as desired.

(Disclaimer: this may take longer than the actual Galactic Civil War)

On 2/26/2018 at 8:33 PM, Npmartian said:

Star Wars: The Russian Nesting Doll Campaign:

Play Rebellion. When fleets engage, play Armada. When squadrons engage in Armada, play X-Wing. When armies engage in Rebellion, play Legion. When troops fight each other in Legion, play Destiny. Sprinkle Star Wars RPG elements as desired.

(Disclaimer: this may take longer than the actual Galactic Civil War)

I think you play Rebellion to generate ideas for what's happening in the galaxy for the RPG campaign, use Armada and Legion to resolve the big, background battles, go to X-Wing and Imperial Assault for the smaller missions.

(I understand it's in jest. Though, I really did briefly run an RPG campaign based on Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and made up the scenarios from what happened as I played the computer game. The PC's were the first scouting party for the Morganites.)

On 2/26/2018 at 6:33 PM, Npmartian said:

Star Wars: The Russian Nesting Doll Campaign:

Play Rebellion. When fleets engage, play Armada. When squadrons engage in Armada, play X-Wing. When armies engage in Rebellion, play Legion. When troops fight each other in Legion, play Destiny Imperial Assault . Sprinkle Star Wars RPG elements as desired.

(Disclaimer: this may take longer than the actual Galactic Civil War)

Fixed that for you ...

BTW, someone was already effectively doing this. Narrative campaign, each system battle with a series of games: Armada, X-Wing, IA, RPG.

2 hours ago, elbmc1969 said:

Fixed that for you ...

BTW, someone was already effectively doing this. Narrative campaign, each system battle with a series of games: Armada, X-Wing, IA, RPG.

That's impressive. Most impressive...