1 hour ago, ColMustang66 said:

I had understood he could NOT since relentless says “attack action” and saber throw is just a card action that ALLOWS a ranged attack action.

That’s just how im reading it though.

In the team covenant video with Alex Davy at about the 49 minute mark Vader does two moves and then a saberthrow.

It's still possible Alex is having a moment of forgetfulness.

I think that I'll probably, at least for the first year of things run 2 squads of Snowtroopers (painted like Galactic Marines from CW era) and 2 squads of Stormtroopers. I think they would senergize well together.

....STORMIES will never let you down!....

1 hour ago, Ghost Dancer said:

If you're taking a special weapon the extra trooper is more valuable - not only does it add a hit point, but the special weapon's keywords apply to the entire dice pool, so you want to be chucking as many dice as possible.

Sure, but there are two ways to achieve more dice in the broad sense of things: Take units that can pack more dice, or take larger units that can pack more dice.

I can take:

1. 5 Stormtroopers for 55 points and take 6 full units for 330 points.

2. 6 Stormtroopers for 89 points and take 6 full units for 534 points.

Both concepts have their merits, I am not too sure that one is better than the other. The 330 point option would allow me an AT-ST which then puts my heavy weapons into one place but as a trade off I now have 7 units that can take objectives to your 6. Now, this is the sort of thing I was looking at in my previous comment. This different strategy provides the very thing that will make the game fun, either can be a good idea, and we get to put the armies down on a table and test. I expect that if the points values are close to correct, then we'll probably have many close games and assuming equal aspects of luck, skill and such, you'll win 50% of the time.

9 hours ago, Omnustechni said:

I've had a few thoughts from the ones I've seen. My initial observations are as follows:

Vader should never not have saber throw. He can use it every turn with his refresh. Otherwise he's probably not attacking much. 3 red die on a ranged attack is still really good.

I was surprised by how good Luke is at shooting. I was thinking he'd only be good up close, but his gun is probably better than a saber throw because his red dice would be better than the black ones he gets from saber throw.

Rebel troopers should never not have a dodge token. Your first activation with every rebel trooper should be to take a dodge token and then move towards cover. Otherwise they'll get destroyed.

I feel like the speeder bikes work best when they just take their obligatory move and then aim and shoot with their two actions. That way they can at least get a reroll on those white dice. The only exception would be if they can get behind cover.

The ATRT is pretty tanky and overall seems to be one of the more fun and versatile models. Especially since it's not a huge point sink.

Special weapons are practically mandatory. They drastically increase the number of dice you get and seem to be the best thing to take down vehicles with. I'd originally considered just running lots of vanilla squads, but after seeing the special weapons I don't think that would be very useful. Might not even be worth taking the extra trooper.

Just opinions on what I saw. Gives me list building ideas for sure.

3 black dice have a higher hit percentage than 2 red dice (irrespective of the opponents defense) and impact would also be better against vehicles. So, the saber throw would be a flat upgrade, even for Luke.

I had the idea of what i call “meerkating” with snow troopers. Basically you start of out of los/range to any enemy units, you then move into los/range, shoot and then move back into cover/out of los/range. The snowtroopers can also preform fighting retreats where they move back shoot move back again. I think I’m going to use a lot of snowtroopers

5 hours ago, Ling27 said:

I think that I'll probably, at least for the first year of things run 2 squads of Snowtroopers (painted like Galactic Marines from CW era) and 2 squads of Stormtroopers. I think they would senergize well together.

Same. For me the stormies will have the long ranged rocket launcher upgrades and the snowtroopers will have the flamethrowers to kill infatry while the stormies’ rockets cover them from armour

14 hours ago, Omnustechni said:

Vader should never not have saber throw.

Rebel troopers should never not have a dodge token.

I agree with you, other then your grammar (ie double negatives)........

Can't wait for some more bat-reps that use a 6x3 with full rules on youtube

13 hours ago, ColMustang66 said:

I had understood he could NOT since relentless says “attack action” and saber throw is just a card action that ALLOWS a ranged attack action.

That’s just how im reading it though.

Vader CAN move twice and use saber throw every turn.

13 hours ago, ColMustang66 said:

I had understood he could NOT since relentless says “attack action” and saber throw is just a card action that ALLOWS a ranged attack action.

That’s just how im reading it though.

I’ve always been under the impression (because of the Alex Davy demo) that Vader could move twice and then saber throw. But, after re-reading the cards, I think you may be right on this. Relentless allows an attack action, not a card action - and there does seem to be a differentiation between those action types in the rules.

Its like Wedge’s card - it’s a free action that grants you the ability to use a full pivot action. I think a lot of people are going to play that as Wedge giving a free full pivot, when actually his free action just upgrades your normal pivot action later in the turn

1 minute ago, OMGBRICK said:

Its like Wedge’s card - it’s a free action that grants you the ability to use a full pivot action. I think a lot of people are going to play that as Wedge giving a free full pivot, when actually his free action just upgrades your normal pivot action later in the turn

If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to word it something like 'when taking a pivot action, you may pivot up to 360 degrees'? To me a free action is exactly that, an action that is free.

On 2/16/2018 at 7:20 AM, Ghost Dancer said:

If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to word it something like 'when taking a pivot action, you may pivot up to 360 degrees'? To me a free action is exactly that, an action that is free.

TL;DR - Wedge gives you a keyword as a free action that upgrades the pivot you may or may not perform later in the turn.

They did word it that way - sort of. The free action says you gain Full Pivot (a keyword) until end of activation, not perform a Full Pivot as a free action immediately. The text in the parentheses goes on to clarify that the Full Pivot keyword means that “when you pivot...”.

If the free action was to perform the Full Pivot, why would it need to clarify “until end of activation”? - as a free action could be used at any point in the activation anyways.

Last line on the card implies RAW it works....... unlike luke who is restricted to melee . Ofc that could be just ffg poor wording for "you can't saberthrow them move and melee/saberthrow again" (1 attack action per activation)

@Ralgon Good catch! Idk how I missed that

@Ralgon Or since the Keywords on Luke and Vader are different, not just the reminder text (Charge vs Relentless) it was entirely on purpose.

9 hours ago, Derrault said:

3 black dice have a higher hit percentage than 2 red dice (irrespective of the opponents defense) and impact would also be better against vehicles. So, the saber throw would be a flat upgrade, even for Luke.

I think 2 red dice will average about the same number of hits most of the time. Red dice have about 75% chance to hit. Black dice are 50% (at least that's my understanding). You'd average 1.5 hits. For some reason I was thinking Luke's pistol had impact 1, but it doesn't. So real difference is the impact 2. If you mostly plan to use Luke to kill vehicles then you're right it is a straight upgrade to get those impact hits.

I'm kind of wondering that since Luke doesn't get a free recharge of his powers if Force powers are really that useful. You kind of have to blow one of your two actions to recharge them. I guess what you'd end up doing is recharge for action one and then move into melee range to get your charge attack if you can. I'm kind of just speculating that using saber throw could actually prevent you from closing if you take the time to recharge it. If you only used it once in a fight would it be worth taking it?

You're definitely right, but I'm just thinking points for wounds it may not be worth using that since he does have a decent ranged attack without it.

1 minute ago, Omnustechni said:

I think 2 red dice will average about the same number of hits most of the time. Red dice have about 75% chance to hit. Black dice are 50% (at least that's my understanding). You'd average 1.5 hits. For some reason I was thinking Luke's pistol had impact 1, but it doesn't. So real difference is the impact 2. If you mostly plan to use Luke to kill vehicles then you're right it is a straight upgrade to get those impact hits.

I'm kind of wondering that since Luke doesn't get a free recharge of his powers if Force powers are really that useful. You kind of have to blow one of your two actions to recharge them. I guess what you'd end up doing is recharge for action one and then move into melee range to get your charge attack if you can. I'm kind of just speculating that using saber throw could actually prevent you from closing if you take the time to recharge it. If you only used it once in a fight would it be worth taking it?

You're definitely right, but I'm just thinking points for wounds it may not be worth using that since he does have a decent ranged attack without it.

His free dodge on the round he really needs to be doing other stuff or mind trick to break a unit is easily worth it's psychological points though. Both of you are also forgetting his surge-> crit. so the percentages are 62.5 for black and 87.5 per red before you even crunch the extra crits.

17 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Ralgon Or since the Keywords on Luke and Vader are different, not just the reminder text (Charge vs Relentless) it was entirely on purpose.

It seems so, but aim->move-> saberthrow or move->move->saberthrow is going to be insane when played right. And it also gives him more movement than anything short of a speeder or melee luke with the ability to still be offensive.

1 minute ago, Ralgon said:

His free dodge on the round he really needs to be doing other stuff or mind trick to break a unit is easily worth it's psychological points though. Both of you are also forgetting his surge-> crit. so the percentages are 62.5 for black and 87.5 per red before you even crunch the extra crits.

It seems so, but aim->move-> saberthrow or move->move->saberthrow is going to be insane when played right. And it also gives him more movement than anything short of a speeder or melee luke with the ability to still be offensive.

Snowtroopers can also move/move/fire. But mostly you're correct, he is quite misleading.

11 minutes ago, Extropia said:

Snowtroopers can also move/move/fire. But mostly you're correct, he is quite misleading.

The biggest issue i see now is keeping him in cohesion with the relative units for his unbreakabubble if they want to use terrain.

As i've said elsewhere, he's going to be a game of activation and movement chess to get the most out of..... get it wrong, and his support will either run or melt. Get it right, and they will be unbreakable deathdealers

In fact Vader could do every turn, gain a dodge token with force reflexes, move twice, saber throw with 3 red dice, impact 3 and pierce 3 and finally recover force reflexes for next turn. If his movement was 2 he would be clearly OP. Moving twice with speed 1 is more than moving once with speed 2.

My initial thoughts...

The game seems very smooth and it moves quickly. I really like just gathering up dice pools and rolling entire attacks together. (I have a few questions questions about that, but I can wait.)

But I do have a concern about the game in general. This isn't a complaint, I don't think anyone really knows this game well enough for any crazy, "Legion is Dead!" crap. First let me talk about X-wing. The basic mechanics are super simple, but mastering movement in the game is really tricky. It means the game is easy to learn but difficult to master. Armada is more complex, I actually get tired playing a game of Armada, there is just always so much to consider. Again the basics of Armada are relatively simple, but actual play is incredibly complex.

I am thrilled that the basics of Legion seem to be very quick and easy to learn, but I worry about the tactical complexity of the game. Moving first seems to be a big deal, not just so you can attack before you die, but also so you can get to cover, and not worry so much about suppression. But how you accomplish moving first is pretty basic. And order activation seems pretty basic. Not only isn't it a very complex activation system, (like how in armada you have to shoot before you move) but a lot of the tactical decision making is actually taken away from the player.

Again, I would like to reiterate that, this is just a worry. I am totally buying this game. I am sure the actual play experience will be different than I could possibly predict from watching a few youtube videos, but tactical complexity (while keeping the rules simple) is a pretty important part of any minis game for me.

@Hrathen

I think that the activation system in Legion lends itself to rather complex decision making. You have two orders per unit per turn, unless you are suppressed or ionized, and vehicles can't be suppressed. Deciding which unit to activate, in which order, and then which actions to have that unit perform, again in which order, lead to a huge decision-tree of possibilities.

In watching some of the BoW 600 point game I can see where I would have made different activation choices to take advantage of the Rebel Troopers' Nimble ability. Also, much like Armada, target priority can make a huge difference. If you are shooting at a unit that has already activated you may not get as big a "bang for your buck" as shooting at a unit that hasn't activated that turn. Reducing the number of troopers/models that can shoot you later that turn could make the difference in your ability to complete objectives, etc.

I think that FFG has done a great job of continuing to create a game with simple rules and complex gameplay with Legion.

@NeonWolf I hope your right.

@Hrathen Guess we'll find out whenever we get to see the actual rules.

The other thing I learned is that I want to get enough dice. Currently planning on 2 box sets. the question I have now is, should I just buy a third box set or an extra dice pack?