So - without squad tailoring (assume you run up against it in a tournament when you've already chosen your list) - how would you handle this particular list?

Kylo Ren - First Order Vanguard, Push the Limit, Advanced Sensors, Advanced Optics, Autothrusters - 47
Blackout - Push the Limit, Advanced Sensors, Advanced Optics, Autothrusters - 41

12 point initiative bid.

The Silencer's tactic is to single out and delete the weakest target on the field, take a large based ship below half points and ideally get to above 47 points in kills. Then they run for the hills, using their movement shenanigans to weave through the obstacles and their high speed green moves to generate distance. Pre move boost and barrel roll to avoid bombs, blocking or to change escape trajectory, 5 green straight to get out of dodge.

They're not going to generate a huge amount of MoV with these tactics, but they're incredibly squirrelly and difficult to pin down, and have enough health to soak a shot or two.

It's going to struggle to do enough damage, as the actions of both ships will be used up staying out of arcs or keeping a Focus token around to modify defence, leaving your attacks unmodified if you're even able to get them without taking serious return fire, and the list has no other big threats to draw fire away from them. The Silencer is no Soontir Fel, and cannot just turtle up to avoid damage for a round - not to mention the trouble they'll have with anything higher PS than them (which is a lot these days) or stress control (likewise), or Sabine-powered bombs (which ignore all their defences or force them, again, to use actions to avoid them)

In short, it'll probably be fun to fly and hurt your brain to account for all the options Advanced Sensors and Push the Limit create, on two ships, but it won't work against most opponents.

It's on my list of fun lists to try, but I think ultimately it'll run afoul of the same problems Defenders run into: not enough dice, therefore not enough attack or defence. I like your idea of using hit-and-run tactics on weaker targets, and I understand running away is a valid tactic in competitive play, but I think if you're resorting to that as a main tactic it just shows your list doesn't have the staying power.

I'd be quite interested to see how it performs against a comparable two-Defender list.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

So - without squad tailoring (assume you run up against it in a tournament when you've already chosen your list) - how would you handle this particular list?

Kylo Ren - First Order Vanguard, Push the Limit, Advanced Sensors, Advanced Optics, Autothrusters - 47
Blackout - Push the Limit, Advanced Sensors, Advanced Optics, Autothrusters - 41

12 point initiative bid.

The Silencer's tactic is to single out and delete the weakest target on the field, take a large based ship below half points and ideally get to above 47 points in kills. Then they run for the hills, using their movement shenanigans to weave through the obstacles and their high speed green moves to generate distance. Pre move boost and barrel roll to avoid bombs, blocking or to change escape trajectory, 5 green straight to get out of dodge.

They're not going to generate a huge amount of MoV with these tactics, but they're incredibly squirrelly and difficult to pin down, and have enough health to soak a shot or two.

Depends on my list.

My last tournament list was Ghost-Fenn, so I'd say my tactic would be...

Kill Kylo with the Ghost, then kill Blackout with the Ghost?

Hmm but what if my opponent ran away with Kylo? I guess in that case, my strategy would be kill Blackout with the Ghost, then kill Kylo with the Ghost.

28 minutes ago, Sparklelord said:

Depends on my list.

My last tournament list was Ghost-Fenn, so I'd say my tactic would be...

Kill Kylo with the Ghost, then kill Blackout with the Ghost?

Hmm but what if my opponent ran away with Kylo? I guess in that case, my strategy would be kill Blackout with the Ghost, then kill Kylo with the Ghost.

OK, so your non-squad tailoring advice on how to handle the list is to run Ghost/Fenn and assume the Silencer player is incompetent? That's really useful.

While I see the merit in playing the scoring game, most of the top lists at the moment have the tools to deal with one silencer - before time runs out.
And 2 3 attack dice ships won't do much to them.

5 minutes ago, Keffisch said:

While I see the merit in playing the scoring game, most of the top lists at the moment have the tools to deal with one silencer - before time runs out.
And 2 3 attack dice ships won't do much to them.

We're in a pretty experimental phase at the moment in the meta, and the Silencer has only been on the table for a couple of months. Not many people have a vast amount of first-hand experience flying with or against them (yet). Sure, some of the top lists out there at the moment are are very capable, but the Silencer has some pretty extraordinary tools which allows it to play the scoring game like pretty much no-one else..

For the Silencer pilot it's a case of identifying the weak link. In the above Ghost/Fenn example, the weak link wou;d be Fenn. Once he goes down (and he will), the Ghost needs to take down at least one Silencer. Double repositioning before or after you move, plus speed 5 green is nothing to scoff at. If you're lower PS with a big donut hole, you're going to really struggle to get a shot. The Silencer player either engages on their own terms (i.e. range one, out of the Ghost's arc), or not at all.

Having seen a player absolutely run rings around his opponents (both higher and lower PS, large base and small) with a pair of these bad boys the other night, I really think it's one to keep an eye on. Top players are going to be able to make this list sing, and a lot of people won't like the lyrics.

I'd assume the silencer player is going to use the speed of the silencers to hone in on a target. Also assuming they would split them on the initial deployment to give you a decision of which to go for. (I play Soontir/Kylo/Dark Curse with a 4 point bid and those tactics seem to work best)

With just about any meta squad at the moment, the weakness is making the silencer use slow speeds. So I'd take any of those other lists and hover near a board edge to take out approach options for the silencer player. I'd think that's really the only way you're going to get one in any number of arcs. Gunboats have a one bank, so the turn of engagement I'd one bank off the board edge to cover as much ground as possible. Ghost/Fenn - same thing. Hover on board edge slowly, use Fenn to get the ghost in position to take out Blackout (no defensive reroll, no Kylo condition for hitting)

Just FYI: totally valid list for System opens and other tournaments where only wins matter, not MOV. I'd expect to see a handful of these types of lists in those tournaments!

4 minutes ago, jonnyd said:

I'd assume the silencer player is going to use the speed of the silencers to hone in on a target. Also assuming they would split them on the initial deployment to give you a decision of which to go for. (I play Soontir/Kylo/Dark Curse with a 4 point bid and those tactics seem to work best)

Absolutely. These evil-looking swine are the ultimate arc-dodger - they can look like they're going to joust, but Advanced Sensors means they can go from head on to flanking positions or miles away at a moments notice. The deployment will be split, they'll stagger their approach and they'll play one big game of cat and mouse. If you look like you're maneuvering to try and focus on one, it'll bug out while the other moves into an advantageous position.

I think you hit the nail on the head with hugging the board edge and trying to slow them down. Limit the space they have to maneuver in and force them to turn away and you'll get an advantage. Try and engage them in the middle and fixed arcs will have a hard time. Donuts will have a hard time. Anything without repositioning (and the action economy to make use of it) is going to have an uphill struggle against them full stop (they simply won't be able to keep up, or navigate obstacles quickly enough).

But yeah, the points race is the key to the list. They're not looking to go 100/0 every game. They'll play hard to get until they set up their perfect attack run. Once they take the lead, they'll play hard to get again.

I have to admit I have less experience than I should with aces, but - it should work. As you say, you'll need to play it like IG-88s - pounce on one thing, kill it, then bugger off and keep running.

My main concerns are:

• the lack of the ability to evade.
  • Evade tokens aren't the answer to everything but they aren't half reassuring and you haven't got any. Agility 3, focus and autothrusters is good but still probably more susceptible to range 3 lucky shots than you want it to be.
• damage output
  • I accept a premise that you can (in theory) avoid all lower PS opponents until you choose to 'pounce'. But the 'pounce' is at best 2 4-dice attacks with focus - enough to seriously concern a lot of opponents but not enough to actually kill a lot of the opponents you're likely to be most concerned about (Nym, for example), and that's at range 1, where it's easy to overcook it and end up bumping your intended target (safe, but not getting a shot).
  • Someone tough (for the sake of argument C-3PO/R2-D2 Norra Wexley) can functionally ignore ~3 hits per turn.
• Pilot Skill
  • You are at the brown and sticky end of the pilot skill stick versus no small number of noticeable threats. Blackout, particularly, at PS7, will have a heck of a time trying to draw a bead on Miranda Doni, for example.

I actually played a list in my regional against a guy who was flying Kylo, Soontir and Wampa, with basically the same premise, try to kill more than Wampa's points value and then win the game on points. From a tournament perspective it places a high bar in terms of wins for the swiss as you have no chance of MOV pulling you into the cut. I think he made it to the top 8.

I think Soontir might be a better choice than Blackout though. He has higher PS and can turtle up better.

Not an easy list to fly by any means.

I've run a variation of the OPs list, I drop both the title and bid for Wampa. And lot of Kylo alone. Observations -

• It just dies to fat turrets. It doesn't have the damage to burn them down and even with AT you're going to take a couple of hits so they just wear through you
• Don't spend the focus on offense if you're taking any shots, just don't, you'll be temped but it's not worth it. The only exception is maybe to push through a blinded or to take something off the table, but even then I've had it bite me
• PS doesn't matter all that much. The Silencers are so maneuverable and there's such a lack of other double reposition aces around that it just doesn't matter. Due to advanced sensors they can't predict where you're going to be effectively enough to dial in the correct maneuver even if they're moving after you whereas you generally know roughly where they will be and which direction they'll be facing within 45 degrees. You just have to play conservatively and bug out when in doubt.
• The juiciest shot in the world if not worth taking fire from two ships. You've only got the one focus token, after that you're dead meat
• Don't end with a stress unless you know you'll be able to not take shots the next turn. This is the biggest trap when playing Silencers, once you've got a stress you're predictable
• Bumping totally OK, whether self or enemy you lose absolutely nothing by bumping since you've already taken your actions. Rocks are kind of OK too, you might take a damage but as long as you don't end on it then they're not effecting you
• It's middling at best against Ghost/Fenn. It has a hard time taking down Fenn fast enough and even once it does the Ghost arcs are rather huge. It's not easy staying in the R1 bow tie at close range when the Ghost can 1 hard, 1 bank, or 4K not to mention a dead Fenn just disables the PS 11 boost but it can still boost. And you can't bug out well since even a 5 straight + boost often won't get you out of R3. It's doable, but it's hardly the slam dunk some people portray it as

9 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I've run a variation of the OPs list...

Not my list, I just watched it in action in slowly increasing awe.

39 minutes ago, asters89 said:

I actually played a list in my regional against a guy who was flying Kylo, Soontir and Wampa, with basically the same premise, try to kill more than Wampa's points value and then win the game on points. From a tournament perspective it places a high bar in terms of wins for the swiss as you have no chance of MOV pulling you into the cut. I think he made it to the top 8.

I think Soontir might be a better choice than Blackout though. He has higher PS and can turtle up better.

Not an easy list to fly by any means.

I also echo this, Soontir is the better choice than Blackout. But he flies a LOT differently than a PTL/AS ace. So its tricky! I added Dark Curse for blocking and annoyance since he's the toughest to kill for around 16 points (I want the 4 point bid). I'd be worried Wampa is TOO easy to kill before he does anything effective. But props to the player who made Top 8 with it! You can't afford a single mistake with the list.

53 minutes ago, jonnyd said:

I'd be worried Wampa is TOO easy to kill before he does anything effective

Wampa is Imperial Biggs in this list, the fact that they shot at him to kill him means he did something effective. If he manages to slip a face down on someone that's just gravy

4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

OK, so your non-squad tailoring advice on how to handle the list is to run Ghost/Fenn and assume the Silencer player is incompetent? That's really useful.

The fact of the matter is, any strategy is highly dependent on what squad you have. For instance, if you have PS 9 aces, you should expect to be able to kill Blackout and struggle to catch Kylo, because you probably don't have as good of a bid.

You're the one who said, verbatim, assume for instance that you come up against it in a tournament and your squad is already set.

So, rather than some generic b.s. platitudes which aren't applicable to every list or even many lists in general, or a stupid long post detailing as many common ships as I can think of and how they'd respond, in the interest of brevity and usefulness, I did exactly what you asked and made my reply specific to the latest list I ran in a tournament.

Which was Ghost-Fenn.

Which will not struggle to kill both Silencers, if I protect Fenn well. If I fail to protect Fenn, I lose. It's as simple as that, really (getting half points on the Ghost is not a win condition in that game as it will most likely cost a Silencer in the process, and that's a points victory for the Ghost player). So I'm saying I'll kill whichever Silencer my opponent gives me first, and I won't go fishing for Kylo even though he's the preferred target (on the basis of the title improving both his offense & defense: best to get that out of the way earlier if possible). And if my opponent decides not to engage, then I win the final salvo on 9 v 6 dice >90% of the time.

So...If you're not satisfied with my reply, I don't know what to tell you. If you didn't like how I responded, I'd suggest maybe asking the actual question you're looking for responses to? Though based on the way the topic's developed so far maybe a more accurate opening would have been "hey look how hard it can be for outbid and/or lower PS ships to take good shots at ships that can double reposition before they move into one of the 10 green moves on their dial, there's so much skill involved winning tournament games this way" and I can see where that wouldn't be a particularly attractive post to make.