Pretty much every fight I’ve had against imperials that bring squadrons bring jendon and he’s almost always the last to die.

he can hang so far back that’s tough to lock him down.

Rather than mess with relay, I would prefer if the squad cap dropped to 25% from 1/3. This would make unique squads really unique. I would hope this would also curtail the dominance of max squad builds.

22 minutes ago, Brikhause said:

And exactly what is the rebel Squadron contingent that you have that is having trouble surviving the the Sloane alpha and/or struggling to kill jendon? I assume this is a Sloane jendon list right? Well my experience escort is rarely present in a Sloane list so why would you struggle taking out jendon if he is your sole opponents relay source. I think there are other details missing here.

There are also other options for rebels besides GHY to win the squadron fight against Sloane. Rieekan, biggs balls, Jamming fields, snipe, A-wings, grit, rogue. I mean just many different combinations.

Sure, those things all work to a degree, but nothing quite like GHY. Biggs balls without GHY can pull it out, but it is a decidedly close thing.

However, you're missing the larger point here a bit, as noted by the bolded text. My apologies if I didn't articulate that properly. All those options involve maximum squadron investment. A mid size squad wing is not going to kill Jendon against an Imp player worth their salt (hi @Green Knight @Mogrok ) They're just not. Those lists are supposed to be able to go after carriers to make up that difference, but that's near impossible as flotillas hide out in three different corners of the board.

A light nerf to Relay and Flotillas is warranted. The data supports as much. This is a very odd position for me. I'm almost always on the other side of this argument urging restraint against nerfs that are far too harsh.

Fleets with loads of gr75s just to get extra activisions is a bit beardy and although is not bending the rules, it just seems a bit of playing to the rules rather than the true spirit of the game. I suppose that's the difference between a tournament win at all costs player rather than someone like myself that just loves the game and of course the theme and plays casually almost exclussively and remembers these games are first and foremost about having fun.

As for squadrons, the rebel one's at least, should be powerful. An x-wing took down DS 1, an A wing took down the executor and the falcon took down DS2. The rebel frigates didn't actually do much apart from look pretty, support the fighters and let themselves get boarded.

1 hour ago, Brikhause said:

And exactly what is the rebel Squadron contingent that you have that is having trouble surviving the the Sloane alpha and/or struggling to kill jendon? I assume this is a Sloane jendon list right? Well my experience escort is rarely present in a Sloane list so why would you struggle taking out jendon if he is your sole opponents relay source. I think there are other details missing here.

There are also other options for rebels besides GHY to win the squadron fight against Sloane. Rieekan, biggs balls, Jamming fields, snipe, A-wings, grit, rogue. I mean just many different combinations.

Other than Rieekan I haven't seen you use many of those examples in a competitive scene. You play the same list pretty much all the time.

Yeah I never understand how people think Jendon is easy to snipe. He's really durable and hard to get to against a good player, especially a Sloane list with tons of super fast souped up squadrons.

He's usually in the back, and usually on an obstacle to prevent engagement and to obstruct. He's usually the last to activate in any given turn (first the rest of the ball is relayed through him, then he moves up to double-tap last), and he's absolutely surrounded by a swarm of angry squadrons.

Especially with slower rebel squads (barring Awings) I just don't see how you can meaningfully get to him and kill him before boosted TIEs eat you alive.

40 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Yeah I never understand how people think Jendon is easy to snipe. He's really durable and hard to get to against a good player, especially a Sloane list with tons of super fast souped up squadrons.

He's usually in the back, and usually on an obstacle to prevent engagement and to obstruct. He's usually the last to activate in any given turn (first the rest of the ball is relayed through him, then he moves up to double-tap last), and he's absolutely surrounded by a swarm of angry squadrons.

Especially with slower rebel squads (barring Awings) I just don't see how you can meaningfully get to him and kill him before boosted TIEs eat you alive.

Piggy backing off of this I’ve found even when given the choice it’s more advantageous to take down Marik than jendon. Getting rid of marik negates that incredibly strong double tap. Getting rid of jendon still leaves marik to go hog wild for several turns.

2 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

Other than Rieekan I haven't seen you use many of those examples in a competitive scene. You play the same list pretty much all the time.

I’ve used them all and seen them used. You just didn’t see me play often.

It sounds to me Jendon is what needs to be nerfed not Relay.

24 minutes ago, Brikhause said:

It sounds to me Jendon is what needs to be nerfed not Relay.

I think a bigger issue than relay, is point fortressing with squadrons. Dropping the squad cap to 25% would remove the worst offending lists without changing any rules or abilities. Squads should compliment your ships rather than the other way around.

Just now, Kristjan said:

I think a bigger issue than relay, is point fortressing with squadrons. Dropping the squad cap to 25% would remove the worst offending lists without changing any rules or abilities. Squads should compliment your ships rather than the other way around.

I think this is a horrible decision.

7 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

I think this is a horrible decision.

Fair enough. I just feel the problem isn't floatillas or relay, its squadron power. 134 points of squadrons is just way better than any 134 points of ships, this would still be true at 100 points. At 100 point squad cap, hard decisions need to be made as you wouldn't be able to just take all the best aces plus relay. I noticed from the campaign that going over the 134 cap, even with the increase in total points, completely breaks the game.

It would also hit things like Yavaris, Gallent Haven, etc since you would pay the same points for less utility. I'm just sick of building fleets where the only competitive position is to start with 400 points and immediately subtract 130 or so for squadrons. It just results in these 1 big ship plus a bunch of floatillas and squadrons fleets.

Just now, Kristjan said:

Fair enough. I just feel the problem isn't floatillas or relay, its squadron power. 134 points of squadrons is just way better than any 134 points of ships, this would still be true at 100 points. At 100 point squad cap, hard decisions need to be made as you wouldn't be able to just take all the best aces plus relay. I noticed from the campaign that going over the 134 cap, even with the increase in total points, completely breaks the game.

It would also hit things like Yavaris, Gallent Haven, etc since you would pay the same points for less utility. I'm just sick of building fleets where the only competitive position is to start with 400 points and immediately subtract 130 or so for squadrons. It just results in these 1 big ship plus a bunch of floatillas and squadrons fleets.

The problem is that Flotillas have little risk when using them in general. Lowering the squadron cost wouldn't fix taking 4 of them for padding.

Relay exacerbates this situation allowing you to stay far away from the fight (Similar to lifeboat flotillas before they were nerfed)

And lowering the squadron count would just make effects like Gallant Haven and Yavaris even more powerful as Yavaris can get 4-6 attacks out of 2-3 squadrons. Less squadrons to fight a gallant haven covered ball as well. (Though attacking the ball under a gallant haven is stupid anyways)

1 minute ago, TallGiraffe said:

The problem is that Flotillas have little risk when using them in general. Lowering the squadron cost wouldn't fix taking 4 of them for padding.

Relay exacerbates this situation allowing you to stay far away from the fight (Similar to lifeboat flotillas before they were nerfed)

And lowering the squadron count would just make effects like Gallant Haven and Yavaris even more powerful as Yavaris can get 4-6 attacks out of 2-3 squadrons. Less squadrons to fight a gallant haven covered ball as well. (Though attacking the ball under a gallant haven is stupid anyways)

With a 100 point squad cap, what squads would you take in a gallant/yarvaris build? 2 VCXs leaves only 70 points remaining. It just forces harder choices, I just feel at 134 points you can take all the cookies and ice cream with out having to choose. It would encourage using more generics, who are more susceptible to flak. Using floatillas as pure activation padding is not very effective, especially if they are not pushing squads. I would hope it would encourage people to take more variety in ships, and I would think squads as well.

1 hour ago, Brikhause said:

It sounds to me Jendon is what needs to be nerfed not Relay.

I would concur, but if Relay is part of the issue, and if, as you say, Flotillas don't need to wander off into the sunset to be effective, what's the harm in a light nerf? I'd hazard a guess that it would barely affect your play style. I like light nerfs that cause small changes in play style. Relay just being a midpoint like a real life repeater is more thematic, better balanced, and still serves a purpose (relay+boosted comms would still be insanely far away). It's better than more regressive nerfs, such as counting Flotillas against squadron counts or, say, this:

37 minutes ago, Kristjan said:

Fair enough. I just feel the problem isn't floatillas or relay, its squadron power. 134 points of squadrons is just way better than any 134 points of ships, this would still be true at 100 points. At 100 point squad cap, hard decisions need to be made as you wouldn't be able to just take all the best aces plus relay. I noticed from the campaign that going over the 134 cap, even with the increase in total points, completely breaks the game.

It would also hit things like Yavaris, Gallent Haven, etc since you would pay the same points for less utility. I'm just sick of building fleets where the only competitive position is to start with 400 points and immediately subtract 130 or so for squadrons. It just results in these 1 big ship plus a bunch of floatillas and squadrons fleets.

Please no. I don't play squadron heavy any more because it's so popular, but I would still like it to remain viable. This just takes a sledge hammer to squadron builds. The game isn't nearly this far off balance.

25 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Please no. I don't play squadron heavy any more because it's so popular, but I would still like it to remain viable. This just takes a sledge hammer to squadron builds. The game isn't nearly this far off balance.

It's not that it's popular, it's completely dominant. Going from 134 to 100 would not eliminate squad builds, but holding on to those points at the end of the game would be much harder, since a lot of the aces at 134 would need to become generics to stay under the cap. I don't see relay as the problem, as Brikhause mentioned we would just go back to taking boosted comms and even more lethal squads. I'd even be happy with a 120 point squad cap, that's 30% maybe that's more reasonable. I just don't see the current dominant builds changing with the current squad cap in place, regardless of any nerfs to relay or floatillas.

Oddly, I'm all for a reduction in squad points. I normally play under 100 points of squads and make it work fine against 100+ points of squads. And 100 points of squads already have enough tools to down ships easily, so why do you need the extra 34.

I also hate Jendon and Biggs+Jan.

9 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Oddly, I'm all for a reduction in squad points. I normally play under 100 points of squads and make it work fine against 100+ points of squads. And 100 points of squads already have enough tools to down ships easily, so why do you need the extra 34.

I also hate Jendon and Biggs+Jan.

So someone who routinely flies less than 100pts of squads supports a reduction in the squad cap... shocking.

I think the peeps who are complaining about squads being op need to have a solid look at all the brilliant new options available for anti squad in the new wave. It’s not about trying to deal with relay or flotillas it’s about ensuing that you have enough flak that those attacking squads just can’t do enough damage to get their 134 points back while your ship build blows up all of their stuff.

It can and is done over and again according to the comp data which doesn’t in any way support that squad builds are dominating. Weren’t we all torch and pitchforks about the Akbar farming list just the other day... it certainly doesn’t win on squadron power...

6 minutes ago, beefcake4000 said:

So someone who routinely flies less than 100pts of squads supports a reduction in the squad cap... shocking.

I think the peeps who are complaining about squads being op need to have a solid look at all the brilliant new options available for anti squad in the new wave. It’s not about trying to deal with relay or flotillas it’s about ensuing that you have enough flak that those attacking squads just can’t do enough damage to get their 134 points back while your ship build blows up all of their stuff.

It can and is done over and again according to the comp data which doesn’t in any way support that squad builds are dominating. Weren’t we all torch and pitchforks about the Akbar farming list just the other day... it certainly doesn’t win on squadron power...

gotcha, i'll git gud.

15 minutes ago, beefcake4000 said:

So someone who routinely flies less than 100pts of squads supports a reduction in the squad cap... shocking.

I think the peeps who are complaining about squads being op need to have a solid look at all the brilliant new options available for anti squad in the new wave. It’s not about trying to deal with relay or flotillas it’s about ensuing that you have enough flak that those attacking squads just can’t do enough damage to get their 134 points back while your ship build blows up all of their stuff.

It can and is done over and again according to the comp data which doesn’t in any way support that squad builds are dominating. Weren’t we all torch and pitchforks about the Akbar farming list just the other day... it certainly doesn’t win on squadron power...

You're implication that I'm biased against squads is bull ****. My most recent fleet is fielding a max bomber list with Sato, and previously I was messing with Thrawn bombers. I love having a bunch of fighters and bombers because they add a very deep and strategic element to the game, as well as looking amazing on the table.

Anyway, a reduction to squadrons is not unwarranted. The nerfs to Rieekan Aces hasn't been effective enough since they are still winning. Combined with the Jendon + 4 Goz lists, 100 points of squads would nerf those lists. The down side is Fish Farm gets a massive buff since its 3 VCXs get to live forever.

And I think before the 2/10 regionals, 8 of 10 fleets had like 110+ or 120+ squads winning. I'm not sure what won yesterday, but I think squads did not win on 2/10.

58 minutes ago, beefcake4000 said:

It can and is done over and again according to the comp data which doesn’t in any way support that squad builds are dominating.

Maybe we will get some new upgrades or something that allows consistent competitive builds without running max squads. I have not seen any builds win consistently, or at all for that matter, in the Toronto area that did not run max squads since wave 2. But hey, maybe we're outliers.

1 hour ago, Kristjan said:

Maybe we will get some new upgrades or something that allows consistent competitive builds without running max squads. I have not seen any builds win consistently, or at all for that matter, in the Toronto area that did not run max squads since wave 2. But hey, maybe we're outliers.

Heh. My no sqd 6 trc90 list wins quite consistantly.

That may also be because its what i consider a win at all costs list where all the big thips are destroyed then they speed 4 GTFO.

But thats just one list right, and i mean im a casual player so my evidence is not acceptable in court, that sort of thing? Lmao

I run many lists with less than a 100 sqd points, 2x YT1300s and jan is my fav min sqd build

When I do get to play I admit I use mostly 3/4 + of my squad allocation.

Last time I commented on here was around the falling sky and activation padding on transports. I said it back then I did not have an issue with it but I also thought relay may be an issue in the future.

My concern and I voiced it back then was the number of imperial scatter aces. In isolation them, relay and transports are not a problem. Togther they are.

Simply reducing the number of points only hurts rebles. I also feel with the new waves there are some scary ISD's out there that rebles will need squad help with to bring down. Yes I believe scatter aces are better than the brace aces.

Yes the 75 looks decent but I think people will work out how to nute them.

If any changes were to happen I would prefer to see a cap on the number of aces in a list.

How would you cap aces? Limit the amount of unique sqns per base or by points? What about people who want to run a tie ball of named pilots? Or rogue sqn from the books? (All named xwings)

soft nerf on relay has been suggested either I) limit the range it works in or II) activates the relay when it's used and can't use the relay rule on an activated sqn.

option 2 makes activation upgrades such as flack ordinance more useful as well... you don't have to kill the vcx to lock it down

Hold on, exactly who the heck wants to nerf what?

Did I walk into an alternate reality or something? What is this data that so bothers people?