20 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

You know, I havent seen these since wave 2. I feel like there are so many Bwing delivery systems now.

I want to try them. But then I realize I want Jan and the sex-swing instead.

51 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Ok. I do understand.

Then, what do you make of the interactions of number of squads + Yavaris?

Well, the crystal ball is getting pretty murky here, as there are only 9 yavaris regionals lists in wave 6 that don't have GH. Dividing it further into 120+ squads and <120 gives 1/5 and 1/4 top4/all.

Compare to YGH: 6/8 for 120+ squads. (And 0/1 for <120 squads)

So, when people bring Yavaris without Gallant Haven, they are bringing fairly large fighter groups. But they are not winning either more or less than chance would indicate. Likewise, max squad non yavaris fleets are also performing at expected levels. (3/7, so maybe a little higher than expected, but sample size is small)

Fighter wing makeup is different between Yavaris and non-yavaris fleets, with fast fighters like A & E-wings, or YT24s being used by non-yavaris fleets.

28 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

Well, the crystal ball is getting pretty murky here, as there are only 9 yavaris regionals lists in wave 6 that don't have GH. Dividing it further into 120+ squads and <120 gives 1/5 and 1/4 top4/all.

Compare to YGH: 6/8 for 120+ squads. (And 0/1 for <120 squads)

So, when people bring Yavaris without Gallant Haven, they are bringing fairly large fighter groups. But they are not winning either more or less than chance would indicate. Likewise, max squad non yavaris fleets are also performing at expected levels. (3/7, so maybe a little higher than expected, but sample size is small)

Fighter wing makeup is different between Yavaris and non-yavaris fleets, with fast fighters like A & E-wings, or YT24s being used by non-yavaris fleets.

Does this hold as a trend going down to top8? I think I’m reading top4 results here.

Are you taking into account also both factions overall percentage taken?

Say if there are 12 lists but 9 are rebel and 6 are YGH. If YGH top4s 66% of rebel lists that’s supposedly fine. But it doesn’t take into account that players generally decided to play YGH for 50% of the overall field.

Again. Good players choose good lists.

Or in the case of very good players... choose weird lists and still win cuz they’re really good. (Which is also a valid data point. That it is possible to win with something unusual).

33 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Does this hold as a trend going down to top8? I think I’m reading top4 results here.

Are you taking into account also both factions overall percentage taken?

Say if there are 12 lists but 9 are rebel and 6 are YGH. If YGH top4s 66% of rebel lists that’s supposedly fine. But it doesn’t take into account that players generally decided to play YGH for 50% of the overall field.

Again. Good players choose good lists.

Or in the case of very good players... choose weird lists and still win cuz they’re really good. (Which is also a valid data point. That it is possible to win with something unusual).

Top 8 is a little different. Rebel results show more wins for high squadron lists, but Imperials show more balanced results.

Regarding the population question, when you compare top X fleets to all fleets of the same type, that avoids distortion from one type of list being too popular. The only problem is conveying the greater uncertainty when talking about unpopular, but effective, lists. I'm not really sure how to objectively determine what proportion of fleets should follow a given archetype. Rebel/imperial should be 50/50, but "what portion of fleets should have an ISD" is much harder to answer than "are ISDs appearing at top tables as often as they are taken?"

22 hours ago, Baltanok said:

Well, the crystal ball is getting pretty murky here, as there are only 9 yavaris regionals lists in wave 6 that don't have GH. Dividing it further into 120+ squads and <120 gives 1/5 and 1/4 top4/all.

Compare to YGH: 6/8 for 120+ squads. (And 0/1 for <120 squads)

So, when people bring Yavaris without Gallant Haven, they are bringing fairly large fighter groups. But they are not winning either more or less than chance would indicate. Likewise, max squad non yavaris fleets are also performing at expected levels. (3/7, so maybe a little higher than expected, but sample size is small)

Fighter wing makeup is different between Yavaris and non-yavaris fleets, with fast fighters like A & E-wings, or YT24s being used by non-yavaris fleets.

That's because those non-GH Yavaris players aren't bringing two Peltas. Duh! That's where there is outperformance.

33 minutes ago, comatose said:

That's because those non-GH Yavaris players aren't bringing two Peltas. Duh! That's where there is outperformance.

@Dr alex did experiment with Yav + 2 Pelta.

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

@Dr alex did experiment with Yav + 2 Pelta.

No he did not. It was irish. Duh me.

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

No he did not. It was irish. Duh me.

And Irish borrowed the idea from me after we played a practice match in Vassal. Top 8 twice in 36+ player regionals.

8 minutes ago, comatose said:

And Irish borrowed the idea from me after we played a practice match in Vassal. Top 8 twice in 36+ player regionals.

Yeah, it was a GREAT fleet. Tabled with no losses ?

Just kidding.

I liked the idea behind it, but he lacked practice and had some bad luck as well.

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

Yeah, it was a GREAT fleet. Tabled with no losses ?

Just kidding.

I liked the idea behind it, but he lacked practice and had some bad luck as well.

Lacking practice is no reason to keep a list out of a tournament! I brought Sato untested to Adepticon last year and I certainly.... Played games. He was such a...... Present...... admiral that I've even considered building a list with him again!

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Yeah, it was a GREAT fleet. Tabled with no losses ?

Just kidding.

I liked the idea behind it, but he lacked practice and had some bad luck as well.

Yeah, it has a lot of nuance, and the use of FCTs to drive squadrons after the loss of a squad pusher takes practice. He also lacked Boosted Comms which really leaves no room for error in positioning nor being selective about which squads get activated when. I think I got clobbered at least a few times before I really got the groove to go 5-2 in my seven regional games. It's so tight of a list that I'll definitely bring it or a variant out again in this wave.

43 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

@Dr alex did experiment with Yav + 2 Pelta.

42 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

No he did not. It was irish. Duh me.

Yep, not me, I do all sorts of weird stuff but not that...

...yet

Here is why Relay shouldn’t be nerfed.

1. I recall people complaining in the past on how armada does not use all the board space. Well relay has solved that aspect greatly. If you haven’t noticed more of the table gets utilized ever since Relay came out.

2. The relay squadrons are 15 points! 15 points out of your squadron allotment for at best a mediocre squadron in every other aspect other than providing relay. That in and of itself should be the reason for relay to work the way it does now. If they nerf relay I am just going to take more anti-squadron and/or more bombers and be that much more devastating.

3. Faster gameplay when playing with squadrons because I don’t have to worry as much about being in squadron activation range of my ships if I am spending less time ensuring my squadrons are in just the right range position from them. Thus I am able to play faster and looser! This speeds up the game dramatically!

4. The tactic on relying solely on relay is stupid because it will bite you in the end if a player worth their salt knows how to play against it. Just relying on flotillas and sending squadrons the other side of the board is just a weak strategy and is a one trick pony that can make you very vulnerable to a proper list that knows how to deal with squadrons. People say this strategy is used heavily but I have yet to see it work successfully against any of the player base of competition from my experience.

Relay isn't the problem, it's the fact that Rogue even exists. If Fighters could move and attack in the squadron phase and that capital ships gave a boost to squadrons activated in the ship phase, then we wouldn't have all these problems.

48 minutes ago, Brikhause said:

T he tactic on relying solely on relay is stupid because it will bite you in the end if a player worth their salt knows how to play against it. Just relying on flotillas and sending squadrons the other side of the board is just a weak strategy and is a one trick pony that can make you very vulnerable to a proper list that knows how to deal with squadrons. People say this strategy is used heavily but I have yet to see it work successfully against any of the player base of competition from my experience.

So I just need to git gud?

55 minutes ago, geek19 said:

So I just need to git gud?

No ones perfect.

Maybe you need to git gud in regards to killing relay squadrons..... cause ur certainly amazing at those blogs/guides/what do you call them? Lol

Nah im in the camp of this relay with flot issue isnt an issue as I personally dont have problems with it, however thats mainly due to my meta being "everyone takes max squadrons" which i LOVE looking at. Swarms of fighters around capitals looks so cool

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

So I just need to git gud?

If you know it is a common tactic then learn to counter it and make people think twice in playing that way against you. That is all I can say, I have no pulse of whether you are a skilled player or not but I do believe that if a person wills it enough they can find a way. All to often we think of the problem when facing lists and strategies in such a fashion that it overcomes us and blinds us to solutions. Then when someone does come up with something original and unique and overcomes that problem we dismiss it as impossible and it didn’t happen, or just that person got lucky. We never give credit where credit is due because, unless we thought about the idea in the first place, then it shouldn’t have worked. I think @Ardaedhel and @Vergilius know something of what I am talking about. Let’s not forget the saying “Classic Ben”

2 hours ago, Brikhause said:

4. The tactic on relying solely on relay is stupid because it will bite you in the end if a player worth their salt knows how to play against it. Just relying on flotillas and sending squadrons the other side of the board is just a weak strategy and is a one trick pony that can make you very vulnerable to a proper list that knows how to deal with squadrons. People say this strategy is used heavily but I have yet to see it work successfully against any of the player base of competition from my experience.

100% agree with this. The Relay Delay is primarily done by Imps because of the perfect Relay via Jendon and Gozantis. Paired with Demo, 5 activations and 134 points of squads is intimidating. But it's fairly easy to beat since squads are coming in 2 at a time, and it's just Demo. Flying in a ball and enveloping the squads allows for maximum AA coverage. I've used this to good effect and wiped nearly all the squads off the table and Demo. It does get harder when there are multiple sources of Relay, but it tends to be just Jendon.

Demo plus squads is about 200 points, and if you repair you can prevent your ships from dying, making an easy win.

I think these games are some of the most engaging and fun to play because they are unlike anything else Armada offers. But I also dislike the fleet because it's boring.

I still think it needs a nerf though.

@Brikhause I think nerfing Relay to make it so Relay ships have to be at 1-3 of the ship activating wouldn't hurt many of the competitive players like yourself. It would just discourage sitting flotillas at the back of the map activating squads.

Also while the VCX is 15 points and Relay 1, I find the 8 hull points and 3 blue dice for anti squadron make them quite formidable and take some effort to beat down unlike Lamdas. I certainly think VCXs are the superior strategic squadron if Relay isn't as big of an issue.

Overall I don't think Wave 7 is an answer for the wave 6 meta since wave 7 was almost done when the wave 6 meta was being worked out. I think something needs to change with flotillas to make them less of a low risk option. They can do a lot of stuff for their cost and something should change about it. It is just the how they can change them without completely neutering them is the question. I understand we have many accuracy generation upgrades, but they aren't really worth the cost on the low dice pool ships out there.

5 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

@Brikhause I think nerfing Relay to make it so Relay ships have to be at 1-3 of the ship activating wouldn't hurt many of the competitive players like yourself. It would just discourage sitting flotillas at the back of the map activating squads.

Also while the VCX is 15 points and Relay 1, I find the 8 hull points and 3 blue dice for anti squadron make them quite formidable and take some effort to beat down unlike Lamdas. I certainly think VCXs are the superior strategic squadron if Relay isn't as big of an issue.

Overall I don't think Wave 7 is an answer for the wave 6 meta since wave 7 was almost done when the wave 6 meta was being worked out. I think something needs to change with flotillas to make them less of a low risk option. They can do a lot of stuff for their cost and something should change about it. It is just the how they can change them without completely neutering them is the question. I understand we have many accuracy generation upgrades, but they aren't really worth the cost on the low dice pool ships out there.

But that is my point who is successfully activating squadrons from safety with such dominance. This seems to me a play not to Lose strategy rather than a play to win. As far as VCX’s being formidable they are not bad but if I really wanted anti-squadron for the cost I could definitely find something better. The nerfs that people are proposing would bring the game back to wave Thor levels because you have to read my other points about how Relay has stretched the field, Making all 6 turns more impactful rather than just those 2-3 turns that decide everything than everyone consolidates and flies away. The game has become faster, more dynamic, and with more options on the table now with relay working the way it does. I don’t want to change that! And there are plenty of options now at this point that just delete flotillas. If people are complaining about them then why are they not bringing anything to counter them. Taking out 3-4 flotillas in a few turns is crippling and will net you close to 100 points.

Hey if only the relay ship has to be 1-3 of the activating ship, that doubles the activation range. That is still a lot of area to cover with Relay ships. I hardly think competitive players would find too much issue with that. Though I do agree some proposals I see are pretty ridiculous.

57 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Hey if only the relay ship has to be 1-3 of the activating ship, that doubles the activation range. That is still a lot of area to cover with Relay ships. I hardly think competitive players would find too much issue with that. Though I do agree some proposals I see are pretty ridiculous.

I think the range 1-3 requirement is ridiculous. I honestly believe that relay is just fine as is.

12 hours ago, Brikhause said:

Here is why Relay shouldn’t be nerfed.

1. I recall people complaining in the past on how armada does not use all the board space. Well relay has solved that aspect greatly. If you haven’t noticed more of the table gets utilized ever since Relay came out.

2. The relay squadrons are 15 points! 15 points out of your squadron allotment for at best a mediocre squadron in every other aspect other than providing relay. That in and of itself should be the reason for relay to work the way it does now. If they nerf relay I am just going to take more anti-squadron and/or more bombers and be that much more devastating.

3. Faster gameplay when playing with squadrons because I don’t have to worry as much about being in squadron activation range of my ships if I am spending less time ensuring my squadrons are in just the right range position from them. Thus I am able to play faster and looser! This speeds up the game dramatically!

4. The tactic on relying solely on relay is stupid because it will bite you in the end if a player worth their salt knows how to play against it. Just relying on flotillas and sending squadrons the other side of the board is just a weak strategy and is a one trick pony that can make you very vulnerable to a proper list that knows how to deal with squadrons. People say this strategy is used heavily but I have yet to see it work successfully against any of the player base of competition from my experience.

Your Rebel bias is showing through pretty strong here, brother. I agree 100% with your points when it comes to Rebels. VCXs are a significant investment, one that you're likely making not just for relay but also strategic. Rebel Flotillas are more likely to need to be close to the fight as well, using BCC and Toryn to stack their synergies.

Imperials are another matter. Jendon and Sloane offer Imperials not just a method, but an incentive to fly their Flotillas off into the distance. They have little use for BCC, nor any major upgrade that requires them to be within range. Jendon is the perfect squad for this. Every single Imp squad heavy build in the top 4 of a Regionals brought him for that reason. He's not the same kind of investment as VCXs. Because of his ability, he essentially attacks like your best Ace while allowing your flotilla to wander in three different direction.

You're saying 'git gud and take the upgrades to paste flotillas.' That isn't the problem. The problem is you're only going to make use of those upgrades once or twice and you'll be draw well away from the rest of the fight to do so. The investment is also significantly larger to hunt down the flotillas than what the other player has invested.

You also seem to think it's really easy to just win the squad fight against relay-centric strategies. Hitting Jendon hard definitely works. But again, your bias for your signature build shows through. Non-Gallant Haven squadron builds struggle to do that against Sloane because of the speed of those supporting squadrons and the viciousness of their alpha strike. I've flown both with and without GH against her and the difference is immeasurable. But regardless, what if you didn't invest in squadrons that heavily? This is supposed to be a legitimate strategy as well. Yet, your only real hope is to send properly upgrades ships to hunt down far cheaper Flotillas in three different directions while still also dealing with Demolisher or an ISD. Your version of 'git gud' (and I know you didn't use those words yourself) sounds more like, 'play GHY.'

Now if I'm coming off as harsh, I apologise. I was in full agreement with you up until a couple months ago. I've only recently come over to the 'nerf relay' side. However, the Regionals data does not lie. 3+ flotillas and relay are the overwhelmingly dominant way to play the game right now. That warrants a nip in the butt.

I am with Truth here. Its only Jendon that bothers me. Up to 3 away from the squad fight.... he is hard to get to, let alone kill.

Is there such a thing as a right answer to the question?

1 hour ago, Truthiness said:

Your Rebel bias is showing through pretty strong here, brother. I agree 100% with your points when it comes to Rebels. VCXs are a significant investment, one that you're likely making not just for relay but also strategic. Rebel Flotillas are more likely to need to be close to the fight as well, using BCC and Toryn to stack their synergies.

Imperials are another matter. Jendon and Sloane offer Imperials not just a method, but an incentive to fly their Flotillas off into the distance. They have little use for BCC, nor any major upgrade that requires them to be within range. Jendon is the perfect squad for this. Every single Imp squad heavy build in the top 4 of a Regionals brought him for that reason. He's not the same kind of investment as VCXs. Because of his ability, he essentially attacks like your best Ace while allowing your flotilla to wander in three different direction.

You're saying 'git gud and take the upgrades to paste flotillas.' That isn't the problem. The problem is you're only going to make use of those upgrades once or twice and you'll be draw well away from the rest of the fight to do so. The investment is also significantly larger to hunt down the flotillas than what the other player has invested.

You also seem to think it's really easy to just win the squad fight against relay-centric strategies. Hitting Jendon hard definitely works. But again, your bias for your signature build shows through. Non-Gallant Haven squadron builds struggle to do that against Sloane because of the speed of those supporting squadrons and the viciousness of their alpha strike. I've flown both with and without GH against her and the difference is immeasurable. But regardless, what if you didn't invest in squadrons that heavily? This is supposed to be a legitimate strategy as well. Yet, your only real hope is to send properly upgrades ships to hunt down far cheaper Flotillas in three different directions while still also dealing with Demolisher or an ISD. Your version of 'git gud' (and I know you didn't use those words yourself) sounds more like, 'play GHY.'

Now if I'm coming off as harsh, I apologise. I was in full agreement with you up until a couple months ago. I've only recently come over to the 'nerf relay' side. However, the Regionals data does not lie. 3+ flotillas and relay are the overwhelmingly dominant way to play the game right now. That warrants a nip in the butt.

And exactly what is the rebel Squadron contingent that you have that is having trouble surviving the the Sloane alpha and/or struggling to kill jendon? I assume this is a Sloane jendon list right? Well my experience escort is rarely present in a Sloane list so why would you struggle taking out jendon if he is your sole opponents relay source. I think there are other details missing here.

There are also other options for rebels besides GHY to win the squadron fight against Sloane. Rieekan, biggs balls, Jamming fields, snipe, A-wings, grit, rogue. I mean just many different combinations.