50 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

What if Flotillas were treated the same way squads are, if all other ships are eliminated it counts as being tabled? That would incentivise players to use the bigger more expensive ships and not just pad their fleet with flotilla activations hiding on the edges of the map abusing relay. I'm not on the balance team so I have no idea if that would be overkill.

I believe the Comms Noise podcast folks over in England had this same sort of idea but went one step further and suggested flotillas be part of the squadron points for each fleet. I think it would be a great solution to the problem.

45 minutes ago, SpaceC0wboy said:

I believe the Comms Noise podcast folks over in England had this same sort of idea but went one step further and suggested flotillas be part of the squadron points for each fleet. I think it would be a great solution to the problem.

I really think this one would be one step too far. It strongly nerfs squadron heavy fleets without doing anything to counter 1+X (fish farm, BTA, etc). We'd still see flotillas everywhere. The only thing to disappear would be squadron fleets.

Frankly, if something like that happened, we'd be looking at a return to the wave 2 meta. DeMSU would be much more competitive.

2 minutes ago, Onidsen said:

I really think this one would be one step too far. It strongly nerfs squadron heavy fleets without doing anything to counter 1+X (fish farm, BTA, etc). We'd still see flotillas everywhere. The only thing to disappear would be squadron fleets.

Frankly, if something like that happened, we'd be looking at a return to the wave 2 meta. DeMSU would be much more competitive.

This. Much this.

56 minutes ago, SpaceC0wboy said:

I believe the Comms Noise podcast folks over in England had this same sort of idea but went one step further and suggested flotillas be part of the squadron points for each fleet. I think it would be a great solution to the problem.

2 minutes ago, Onidsen said:

I really think this one would be one step too far. It strongly nerfs squadron heavy fleets without doing anything to counter 1+X (fish farm, BTA, etc). We'd still see flotillas everywhere. The only thing to disappear would be squadron fleets.

Frankly, if something like that happened, we'd be looking at a return to the wave 2 meta. DeMSU would be much more competitive.

Yup, I'm on board with the tabling thing, but counting them against squadron points is a really poorly-considered idea that targets one specific archetype (squadron- and flotilla-heavy) while in fact helping other types of flotilla-heavy fleets that either don't use the flotillas to push squadrons (my own archetype included) or use them only to push a few Strategics. Which are even more maligned than the squadron-heavy fleets in some circles.

21 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yup, I'm on board with the tabling thing, but counting them against squadron points is a really poorly-considered idea that targets one specific archetype (squadron- and flotilla-heavy) while in fact helping other types of flotilla-heavy fleets that either don't use the flotillas to push squadrons (my own archetype included) or use them only to push a few Strategics. Which are even more maligned than the squadron-heavy fleets in some circles.

Your argument supposes that the vast majority of Armada players only dislike flotillas when they're pushing masses of squadrons. I do not think this is the case. The popular angst seems to be against the activation padding as well. Also, the fact that you can flit your flotillas around the outskirts using the relay on 2-3 strategics is just as irritating, if not moreso, than them doing it to a larger swarm.

Putting flotillas in the squadron point cost would cause players to have to choose more carefully how many smaller units they have on the field, this would have the added benefit of speeding up the game(less activations) and would put the focus on ship to ship combat, which I believe many feel the game is about.

6 minutes ago, SpaceC0wboy said:

Your argument supposes that the vast majority of Armada players only dislike flotillas when they're pushing masses of squadrons. I do not think this is the case. The popular angst seems to be against the activation padding as well. Also, the fact that you can flit your flotillas around the outskirts using the relay on 2-3 strategics is just as irritating, if not moreso, than them doing it to a larger swarm.

Putting flotillas in the squadron point cost would cause players to have to choose more carefully how many smaller units they have on the field, this would have the added benefit of speeding up the game(less activations) and would put the focus on ship to ship combat, which I believe many feel the game is about.

Uhm...that is a wild misrepresentation of what Ard said. Go back and read it again.

I kind of liked the idea I saw floated around wherein the limit on Flotillas is based on the number of "ships" flown, one ship per flotilla. So, if you want three flotillas in your list, you need a minimum of three ships in your list.

1 hour ago, SpaceC0wboy said:

Your argument supposes that the vast majority of Armada players only dislike flotillas when they're pushing masses of squadrons.

That's just about the opposite of what I said.

I fly 4 MC30's and 3 GR75's, with no squadrons. Been my go-to for well over a year now. The proposal you're talking about has literally zero impact on my list. It has zero or near-zero impact on @Green Knight's ISDC + 4 or 5 or 6 or however many Gozantis. It has minimal impact on most iterations of the Fish Farm.

In fact the only archetypes it really heavily impacts are things like 2+(3/4) Rebel bombers or @Tokra-esque mass flotilla squadron lists. Which, while I am eminently okay with nerfing those two lists into the ground because they're strong lists (Bront) that I face a lot, crushing squadron play like that is terrible for the game in the long term. It would take us back to the good ol' Wave 2 days of "reasonable activation parity or carriers: pick one".

10 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Reinforced Bulkheads finally ended the ET ram terror.

Not entirely. A MC80 with ET can still deal the two damage, no matter what the opponent ship is.
But the Bulkhead is more or less a sideboard card. It is to specific and on an to important slot to be a main card.

And this is exactly what i would love to see. A sideboard for Armada. A pair of upgrade cards that you can switch around after you saw the opponents fleet. Maybe 20 points with the rule, that you fleet need to have max. 400 points after the change. You need to remove and add the same number of cards, your new inititave will be the one with the sideboard cards (and yes, this means you can modify your bid really extrem).

This would be a good way for anti lists. There are so many cards that are to specific and work only against certain lists. Many are not using the anti squadron cards, because they are worthless when the opponent has no squadrons.
I added Damage Control Officer to my WC list, because i thought its great against these extra crits that are flying around all over. But guess what, i never could use it so far. because no one had the bonus crits like APT, ACM, WAB, HIE, ...

And even with a sideboard of 20 points, you will have to choose. There are so many great cards that would be good in the sideboard.

So combine the 2 fixes.... using relay activates the sqn, and it can't be used if the sqn is activated. & pool flotilla activations together i.e. Activate 2 or 3 at one go in your turn. So 4 flotillas only give you 2 extra activations

3 hours ago, SpaceC0wboy said:

I believe the Comms Noise podcast folks over in England had this same sort of idea but went one step further and suggested flotillas be part of the squadron points for each fleet. I think it would be a great solution to the problem.

No, it is not a solution. It only makes it worse (imo).

Fleets that use flotillas as activation spam and not as squadron activator profit from this. Because on of the lists, that are a danger, do not work anymore. They don't have to fear a heavy squadron list anymore. They could even remove one flottilla for a higher bid.
This "fix" would only hurt squadron lists.

This might sound weird, but what about making flotillas activate only after all friendly ships have activated? They could still push squadrons, provide tokens (for the next round) and even use slicers...

There’s probably something obvious and pivotal I’m missing...

11 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

"wasteful" activations.

I am sick and tired of this argument.

"Wasteful" activations wouldn't appear in 100% of winning fleets and well over 90% of top 4 regionals or higher fleets since their introduction. "Wasteful" activations wouldn't result in clear and obvious savings on points, efficiency, and opportunity costs for creating fleet interactions that wildly boost the capability of all ships and squadrons they are allied with. Wasteful activations wouldn't find themselves in the thick of battle nearly immune to some of the most powerful ships and squadrons in the game without specialized upgrades. Wasteful activations wouldn't result in a player completely negating a board wipe scenario. Wasteful activations would not radically increase the chance of survival of friendly ships even when they are incapable of physically attacking the opponent and merely running away into empty space. Wasteful activations would not directly enable combat ships to attack and escape the enemy fleet with almost no opposition.

Flotillas are not and have never been wasteful activations. They are profoundly powerful ships with dedicated fleet support purposes, that accomplish a multitude of goals each time they activate. This isn't a byproduct of the meta, this is what they were designed to do as cheap force multipliers, and they are doing it brilliantly even after a significant nerf to their fleet function.

And they are killing the game.

13 minutes ago, Tokra said:

No, it is not a solution. It only makes it worse (imo).

Fleets that use flotillas as activation spam and not as squadron activator profit from this. Because on of the lists, that are a danger, do not work anymore. They don't have to fear a heavy squadron list anymore. They could even remove one flottilla for a higher bid.
This "fix" would only hurt squadron lists.

Given that squadrons are now and always have been more powerful point-for-point than ships, is this really a huge change?

Listen, we both are on different sides of this particular argument. But I'll offer the following: It is no longer cost efficient, with all the new tools at the disposal of large ships and squadron-focused fleets like Sloane and Rieekan Aceholes, to run a bunch of flotillas that don't do anything other than move. It might win you a few games against your typical baby seal, but it won't do much in real competition. The ability to rapidly throw several squads against the opponent and batter their hull into a thin paste is real now. You no longer need a half dozen carriers to channel that through Col. Jendon, you can do it with Yavaris and Squall and Profundity and Avenger and they'll murder your target without much opportunity to fight back.

5 hours ago, Tokra said:

Not entirely. A MC80 with ET can still deal the two damage, no matter what the opponent ship is.
But the Bulkhead is more or less a sideboard card. It is to specific and on an to important slot to be a main card.

And this is exactly what i would love to see. A sideboard for Armada. A pair of upgrade cards that you can switch around after you saw the opponents fleet. Maybe 20 points with the rule, that you fleet need to have max. 400 points after the change. You need to remove and add the same number of cards, your new inititave will be the one with the sideboard cards (and yes, this means you can modify your bid really extrem).

This would be a good way for anti lists. There are so many cards that are to specific and work only against certain lists. Many are not using the anti squadron cards, because they are worthless when the opponent has no squadrons.
I added Damage Control Officer to my WC list, because i thought its great against these extra crits that are flying around all over. But guess what, i never could use it so far. because no one had the bonus crits like APT, ACM, WAB, HIE, ...

And even with a sideboard of 20 points, you will have to choose. There are so many great cards that would be good in the sideboard.

Ha! Yes! I was talking about this the other day! 100% agree, would love to see some kind of sideboard implemented.

5 hours ago, Tokra said:

Not entirely. A MC80 with ET can still deal the two damage, no matter what the opponent ship is.
But the Bulkhead is more or less a sideboard card. It is to specific and on an to important slot to be a main card.

And this is exactly what i would love to see. A sideboard for Armada. A pair of upgrade cards that you can switch around after you saw the opponents fleet. Maybe 20 points with the rule, that you fleet need to have max. 400 points after the change. You need to remove and add the same number of cards, your new inititave will be the one with the sideboard cards (and yes, this means you can modify your bid really extrem).

This would be a good way for anti lists. There are so many cards that are to specific and work only against certain lists. Many are not using the anti squadron cards, because they are worthless when the opponent has no squadrons.
I added Damage Control Officer to my WC list, because i thought its great against these extra crits that are flying around all over. But guess what, i never could use it so far. because no one had the bonus crits like APT, ACM, WAB, HIE, ...

And even with a sideboard of 20 points, you will have to choose. There are so many great cards that would be good in the sideboard.

The only ship that can take both is the MC80C, which tends to get less play than the MC80A. So I'm fine with a single ship being able to do this combo because it already costs 1/4 of the fleet. Bulkheads were the perfect counter to the ET ram jam because it would piss me off when Demo or a CR90 would just ram the **** out of me and now my ISD is gone. And the 75 can take it, so it's payback time

I totally agree with the side board, but I have a different rule set for it.

Construct your fleet as normal, up to 400 points. Next, add a 20 point side board that contains only upgrades. When you start a game, your bid is your fleet and side board combined. Next, both players make changes to their fleets with the side board and reveal the changes (this process is hidden from the opponent). Your fleet may not exceed 400 points.

I really like the sideboard idea. It allows fleets to remain original, but also allows them to compete against their hard counters. You could always take Lando to prevent the BTA, or DCO on the 75. Flechette and Ordnance Pods might actually see play.

This also would cut down on massive bidding because you have to account for another 20 points that someone may or may not take.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

The only ship that can take both is the MC80C, which tends to get less play than the MC80A. So I'm fine with a single ship being able to do this combo because it already costs 1/4 of the fleet. Bulkheads were the perfect counter to the ET ram jam because it would piss me off when Demo or a CR90 would just ram the **** out of me and now my ISD is gone. And the 75 can take it, so it's payback time

I did not mean to put the Bulkhead and ET on the same ship. I mean the opponent ship is not protected from a MC80 Liberty that is doing the double ram. The MC80 will still get the damage, but the target is not ram proofed when an MC80 is coming.
Thanks god is there only the MC80A and C that can use these two upgrades. They are to slow to make this a good combo.

But yes, the Bulkhead is a good protection against the CR90 ET ram lists. Or if the big ship has a few hull left, where someone just send in the small ships to finish the Big blocks. This does not work anymore.

6 minutes ago, Tokra said:

I did not mean to put the Bulkhead and ET on the same ship. I mean the opponent ship is not protected from a MC80 Liberty that is doing the double ram. The MC80 will still get the damage, but the target is not ram proofed when an MC80 is coming.
Thanks god is there only the MC80A and C that can use these two upgrades. They are to slow to make this a good combo.

But yes, the Bulkhead is a good protection against the CR90 ET ram lists. Or if the big ship has a few hull left, where someone just send in the small ships to finish the Big blocks. This does not work anymore.

Yea well how often at Libs seen on the table with ET? And if it wants to ram me, I'm fine with that. 3 free damage a round after I get a ram in. In fact, I've already been doing that with the 75. Get it stuck in the front arc of another large ship and just tank the attacks and ram. It's quite effective and you can maintain speed 3 while doing it, so when you destroy the impeding ship you can make a quick escape.

My issue with a sideboard is it allows you to switch between ecm and ews depending on the matchup....

I'd like to think it would be used for niche cards... but I dont believe that.

the only way i'd see a sideboard working is in a tournament... you get 3 choices per slot. But once you've swapped it out thats it, its gone. ie you start with ECM on a ship, swap it out for EWS from the sideboard you've lost ECM for the rest of the tournament.

10 hours ago, SpaceC0wboy said:

I believe the Comms Noise podcast folks over in England had this same sort of idea but went one step further and suggested flotillas be part of the squadron points for each fleet. I think it would be a great solution to the problem.

Ugh, this again? This has been, and continues to be, a terrible idea for all the reasons already stated. It wouldn't balance the game. It would imbalance the game in a different direction and do nothing about the activation padding portion of the flotilla spam problem.

I don't think wave 7 was necessarily supposed to fix things like OP is suggesting. I mean, it's new ships and new upgrades. It doesn't directly affect older stuff. We need to wait for an FAQ or errata for that.

Now I've been a salty about flotilla spam for a while. I honestly don't mind when numerous flotillas are pushing squadrons. I see that as their primary function, and it doesn't bother me when every flotilla is actively part of the fight. What does bug me is when they're doing so from 5 feet away, hugging the long board edge with no intention of being part of the fight. It's not overpowered per se, but it's boring. I've played against a bunch of "hug the back wall and relay through Jendon" fleets and they all feel pretty much the same, which gets old fast. In any naval strategy game the key factors should be maneuvering and positioning. Relay spam really takes a lot of that out.

Now if said flotillas are actively part of the fight, pushing squads from actual squadron distance, exposing themselves to risk, etc, then I don't feel bad about it. But! As more experienced folks have pointed out, flotilla spam for activation padding does allow a fleet with all their eggs in one basket to prosper by securing the last/first when needed. That's probably not ideal.

The fixes that have interested me the most have been: Flotillas don't count for tabling, Relay just "extends" squadron range and isn't global, and Flotillas cannot interact with objectives. The first makes 1 + 5 fleets much more risky, (if not fixing the actual padding problem), the second means flotillas can no longer push squads at speed 0 in the corner, and the final one pushes a lot more thought into certain objectives. Things like Most Wanted or Intel Sweep or Sensor net take on a much more interesting form when you can't just have your flotillas safely be the objective ship or pick up tokens. You'd need to dedicate a real ship to the cause. Could be much more interesting!

Another thought that I've been wondering about since I started playing. Are aces part of the problem? We've all seen the complaints that max-squad lists seem to be over-represented at the top of tournaments. I feel like 134 points of generics wouldn't be nearly as powerful as 134 points of aces. Aces in general, (especially scatter aces) are many times more durable than generics. Their special abilities give them incredible strength. Things like Yavaris might have been designed to double-tap Xwings, not necessarily Ten Numb. An A-wing is tough prey for TIE fighters. Shara Bey eats 10 dozen TIE fighters for breakfast each morning. A TIE defender is a good all-purpose squadron. Maarek Stele is wanted in 5 sectors for violated the Space-Geneva convention.

Was the squadron game too simple back before your entire ball could be aces? Would Sloane function decently with generics? It just feels that aside from a couple VCXs or TIEs I hardly ever see a single generic squadron on the table.

11 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

That's just about the opposite of what I said.

I fly 4 MC30's and 3 GR75's, with no squadrons. Been my go-to for well over a year now. The proposal you're talking about has literally zero impact on my list. It has zero or near-zero impact on @Green Knight's ISDC + 4 or 5 or 6 or however many Gozantis. It has minimal impact on most iterations of the Fish Farm.

In fact the only archetypes it really heavily impacts are things like 2+(3/4) Rebel bombers or @Tokra-esque mass flotilla squadron lists. Which, while I am eminently okay with nerfing those two lists into the ground because they're strong lists (Bront) that I face a lot, crushing squadron play like that is terrible for the game in the long term. It would take us back to the good ol' Wave 2 days of "reasonable activation parity or carriers: pick one".

Ah, I see now. Thank you for clarifying, specifically laying out your fleet clears up my misunderstanding. Kudos to you for flying 30's, I can't wait to give them another try after I'm done training with my current tourney list.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

My issue with a sideboard is it allows you to switch between ecm and ews depending on the matchup....

I'd like to think it would be used for niche cards... but I dont believe that.

Why is that an issue? That's the purpose of a side board. I'd like for Rieekan Aces to not be the top list anymore and a side board would solve that.

2 hours ago, duck_bird said:

It just feels that aside from a couple VCXs or TIEs I hardly ever see a single generic squadron on the table.

Paging @JJs Juggernaut...