Yeah, the ace/generic thing is such a weird argument. I'd have to really think about it to tell you what the frequency of occurrence is between unique and generics was in my last game, it's such a trivial distinction. Like... Why does it matter? Yeah, 1:1 an ace is stronger than its corresponding generic. It's also way more expensive.

In fleets that are all about maximizing a few squadrons--Adar, Yavaris, Jendon, etc--yeah, aces are great. But generics are way more efficient to exploit auras like Howlrunner, Norra, TF, Biggs, BCC, etc. Both have a place, both show up, and generic-heavy squadrons have performed just fine.

I don't know, it's just such a weird complaint. What is the down side even if unique were disproportionately represented?

/shrug

39 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yeah, the ace/generic thing is such a weird argument. I'd have to really think about it to tell you what the frequency of occurrence is between unique and generics was in my last game, it's such a trivial distinction. Like... Why does it matter? Yeah, 1:1 an ace is stronger than its corresponding generic. It's also way more expensive.

In fleets that are all about maximizing a few squadrons--Adar, Yavaris, Jendon, etc--yeah, aces are great. But generics are way more efficient to exploit auras like Howlrunner, Norra, TF, Biggs, BCC, etc. Both have a place, both show up, and generic-heavy squadrons have performed just fine.

I don't know, it's just such a weird complaint. What is the down side even if unique were disproportionately represented?

Oh I have no idea. I started playing well into wave 6 so I've never seen what the game looked like before you could do a billion aces.

But I've seen a lot of complaints that max-squad lists are crushing the tournaments. I wonder if this is because aces are really strong compared to generics. I'm pretty confident 100 pts of aces will whoop 100 pts of generics every time, no? Are they too cost effective then?

10 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Oh I have no idea. I started playing well into wave 6 so I've never seen what the game looked like before you could do a billion aces.

But I've seen a lot of complaints that max-squad lists are crushing the tournaments. I wonder if this is because aces are really strong compared to generics. I'm pretty confident 100 pts of aces will whoop 100 pts of generics every time, no? Are they too cost effective then?

Depends who has initiative and if you built a coherent squadron list.

11 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I'm pretty confident 100 pts of aces will whoop 100 pts of generics every time, no?

If that were the case, then sure, there would be an argument that they were too cheap. But that's a pretty bold assumption to base the whole argument on without any real data supporting it...

1 minute ago, duck_bird said:

But I've seen a lot of complaints that max-squad lists are crushing the tournaments.

The imbalance is (IMO) fortunately more narrow than is widely believed. Yavaris/GH lists are very strong, and people come away with the conclusion that squadrons are the problem. But if you exclude YGH lists from the rebel fleet population, squadron points do not correlate with high finishers. Imperial-side, it's a different story, but there it's more that low squads are underperforming than that high squads are overperforming.

But, of course, most of the data is wave 6, not wave 7.

To speak to the generic/ace balance, YGH lists tend to be ace heavy, but outside that, most lists tend to be 40-50% unique, and there isn't a strong tilt at top or bottom finishes. (Still excluding YGH)

My Sloane list has 100% unique squads, all 134 points.

My Vader fleet has no squads.

Both win and win and win.

Git gud scrubs.

(Hopefully that will provoke meaningful discussion)

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

Paging @JJs Juggernaut ...

Also @Captain Weather

9 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

The imbalance is (IMO) fortunately more narrow than is widely believed. Yavaris/GH lists are very strong, and people come away with the conclusion that squadrons are the problem. But if you exclude YGH lists from the rebel fleet population, squadron points do not correlate with high finishers. Imperial-side, it's a different story, but there it's more that low squads are underperforming than that high squads are overperforming.

But, of course, most of the data is wave 6, not wave 7.

To speak to the generic/ace balance, YGH lists tend to be ace heavy, but outside that, most lists tend to be 40-50% unique, and there isn't a strong tilt at top or bottom finishes. (Still excluding YGH)

... why would you run 100+ Rebel squads and NOT run yavaris? Seems like an arbitrary exception

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

... why would you run 100+ Rebel squads and NOT run yavaris? Seems like an arbitrary exception

I t's the difference between DeMSU and all lists with Demolisher. Yavaris lists without GH are performing at expected levels, and getting to top tables about 20% of the time.

22 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

If that were the case, then sure, there would be an argument that they were too cheap. But that's a pretty bold assumption to base the whole argument on without any real data supporting it...

I'm just spitballing here. I hadn't personally seen any generic heavy lists, so I have no idea how prevalent they are. I am very aware that I'm not as experienced as a lot of folks here.

Just giving my observations and asking for feedback.

Is GH Gallant Haven?

Just now, codegnave said:

Is GH Gallant Haven?

Sorry, yes. Too many acronyms...

13 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I'm just spitballing here. I hadn't personally seen any generic heavy lists, so I have no idea how prevalent they are. I am very aware that I'm not as experienced as a lot of folks here.

Just giving my observations and asking for feedback.

You have actually. Try to remember that Liberty of @Aresius that you blocked from your memory...

Just now, Baltanok said:

Sorry, yes. Too many acronyms...

Thanks, I did look it up but it wasnt in the stickied thread lol

Having tried to avoid the Assault Frigate I've never really looked at rgis title, its rather nasty. Maybe Yavaris and Gallant Haven might benefit from a restriction on the number of squads they can affect in a turn?

5 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

You have actually. Try to remember that Liberty of @Aresius that you blocked from your memory...

Everyone try to cancel from memory my poor liberty

5 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I'm just spitballing here. I hadn't personally seen any generic heavy lists, so I have no idea how prevalent they are. I am very aware that I'm not as experienced as a lot of folks here.

Just giving my observations and asking for feedback.

There are a several squadrons that you’ll see the generic variant as, or even more often then the ace(s), and some where you’ll see the ace(s) because it/they are great as the first instances but then the generics come into play.

Such as;

Xwings (often escorting Jan. This may also include Biggs or other trench bros, depending on investment. But Jan and a few X’s get used sometimes as a low investment tarp)

Awings (yes, lots of people use tycho/shara, but sometimes people prefer to just go 4 generic A’s for stand coverage, and sometimes they just get added in as cheap versatile squad fodder)

Bwings- most b’s are generic, although Ten and Dagger arent bad uniques. But for the most part, B’s exist to bomb ships the generics do that just fine

YT2400’s -8 of these is a very real option if you happen to have/can borrow them, and get used plenty

Defenders- Yeah of course ima use mareek, but the base defender sees the table plenty too

VCX- Strategic/relay

Used to be you’d see plenty of TIE bombers/firesprays, but not so much anymore I feel

The other TIE variants the aces just give so much in terms of survivability and efficacy vs the base model that unless you are looking to put more stands out you tend to see aces/uniques first (esp Cieena, Valen, Saber, Mithel, Tempest)

Both intel ships show up as generics with fair regularity, although probably more so as aces.

Everything else pretty much shows up as aces or are headhunters

5 minutes ago, Aresius said:

Everyone try to cancel from memory my poor liberty

This one was amusing tho. Duckbird popped up on Discord asking for help against this rebel list, after a little digging we got to: "oh thats Aresius' liberty list, you dont beat it".

35 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

This one was amusing tho. Duckbird popped up on Discord asking for help against this rebel list, after a little digging we got to: "oh thats Aresius' liberty list, you dont beat it".

Man I still have nightmares about that game.

From deployment on I felt like I didn't know how to approach it lmao.

But I did forget all about the squads involved, you're right.

Generic Scurrgs are my bane.

I think this discussion is happening way to soon, wave 7 has just bearly came out and the meta still is not quite settled, maybe we should give it some time to settle and then we can have this discussion.

1 minute ago, xero989 said:

wave 7 has just bearly come out

12 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Generic Scurrgs are my bane.

You know, I havent seen these since wave 2. I feel like there are so many Bwing delivery systems now.

1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

You know, I havent seen these since wave 2. I feel like there are so many Bwing delivery systems now.

Got stomped at w 3/4 regionals way back. Still salty.

TO add isnuslt to injury: those same **** Scurrgs won a w6 Regionals in Denmark just a few weeks ago.

Scurrgs. OP. Nerf plz.

1 hour ago, Baltanok said:

I t's the difference between DeMSU and all lists with Demolisher. Yavaris lists without GH are performing at expected levels, and getting to top tables about 20% of the time.

Ok. I do understand.

Then, what do you make of the interactions of number of squads + Yavaris?