Yes, this was one of the pillars of EU badness in my opinion. It's so meta that it's ridiculous.
Bad guys following rules that weaken them
Bad guys seeing themselves as bad guys
I have talked with people who like this thing and they really work up a sweat defending it and justifying it. Why did they need a doctrine for wanting to kill your boss? Many people experience that just as a part of life lol.
The Jedi foolishly believe that the Force is like a fire, and can be kindled and grow in strength from individual to individual. But the Sith know that the force is like venom in a cup. You can only pass it on to so many cups before it has been diluted into impotency.
The rule of two comes down to fundamental religious understanding of The Force. The Sith believe that there is limited quantity of the force and so sharing it is absurd. This notion gains further support by how much the force potency of the Jedi in the prequels were. And though Darth Bane subscribes to the notion that having an apprentice is to ensure that Sith doctrine gets passed down and the strongest may grow, he is probably the only Sith to believe that or care about that. The only reason the rule of two makes more sense to Sith in general rather than the rule of one (which is the fantasy of just about all Sith) is because, in order to survive, a Sith lord is better off remaining hidden. Therefore having an expendable apprentice to carry out your plans while you stay out of the light is ideal. Palpatine is the perfect example of using this system.
Of course, Palpatine was not much the religious type so he had no problem amending the rule a little to allow for his inquisitors and "watering down" the venom a little.
On 2/14/2018 at 8:08 PM, KungFuFerret said:I am aware of that, but it doesn't actually "solve" the problem that the Rule of Two was meant to solve. Designing it so that you are still fighting each other for power doesn't remove the initial flaw being addressed, namely that of the Sith fighting each other for power. The fundamental issue is still there, it's just now been limited to 2 people, instead of potentially thousands.
Not quite. Not remotely, even. The master and apprentice don’t fight each other for power. They work together for power. One kills the other when he feels the other isn’t the best choice for the partnership anymore and the survivor takes on a new apprentice to once more work together with. This means in-fighting is inevitable (until the ultimate sith decides he can go it alone), sure, but it’s not a fight for power. It’s a fight to prove that the apprentice has outshone the master or to show that the apprentice is too weak to fulfill his role and allow another to take his place.
It’s also something you need to see in a larger context of (dark) Force users, any of which could try to become Sith, particularly should both master and apprentice perish. Darth Bane instituted the rule after the Sith were almost completely destroyed. He adapted to the situation based on what he thought was the best way for the Sith to return to power: not as a strong but fractured group that only saw each other as competition to be eliminated, but as a small, hidden number secretly growing in strength. Bane realized he could not achieve a return to Sith supremacy on his own, but also that strength in numbers is a meaningless concept to the Sith. He needed just one other, to push him, to help him become stronger, to work towards the ultimate goal - one other he could replace when he so chose.
Wasn't the rule of two also a means of remaining in hiding from the Jedi for centuries, allowing them to grow complacent while the knowledge of the Sith was secretly passed on?
And thus the reason it could be abandoned once Darth Sidious plan was nearing fruition (leading to Ventress, the Inquisitors, etc) who are not Sith lords but could potentially become Sith some day.
Ventress was Dooku/Darth Tyranus’ apprentice. As such she was a breach of the Rule of Two (Tyranus even had two other apprentices after her, Savage Opress and Quinlan Vos, neither of which worked out well). But yes, the Rule of Two doesn’t restrict the number of Dark Side Force users, only the number of Sith (both master and apprentice are considered Sith Lords). The two Sith Lords could train other Dark Siders, but those would not become Sith - unless by becoming the apprentice. Plagueis didn’t honor the rule either, not by allowing more Sith to be trained but because he intended that he and his apprentice would remain the Two forever. And Sidious obviously went for the solo Sith version.
Was Ventress intended to become Sitih? I was under the impression (Clone Wars) she was merely an adept trained to be an assassin.
23 minutes ago, ASCI Blue said:Was Ventress intended to become Sitih? I was under the impression (Clone Wars) she was merely an adept trained to be an assassin.
She was Dooku’s apprentice. What that means regarding becoming Sith is unclear, since the Rule of Two doesn’t have a proviso for the Sith Lord apprentice to have an apprentice of his own.
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If we operate off that, we have to consider Starkiller and his relation to Vader and even Maul since he held the Darth title, he seems to have been recruited/trained concurrent to Dooku.
27 minutes ago, ASCI Blue said:If we operate off that, we have to consider Starkiller and his relation to Vader and even Maul since he held the Darth title, he seems to have been recruited/trained concurrent to Dooku.
Starkiller yes, Maul no. Dooku only became Darth Tyranus after Maul was (incorrectly) presumed dead; he was the replacement, not the competition.
Starkiller is also another exponent of the Rule of Two not really applying anymore to Sidious and Vader. Sidious intended to become the sole Sith Lord eventually, and he later pitted Luke and Vader against one another to try and get Luke to succumb to the Dark Side and become his new apprentice - not exactly the normal modus operandi, insofar as there is a “normal” that applies here. Vader took on an apprentice among other reasons to stand stronger when he was going to make his move against Sidious, also highly irregular. Neither abided by the Rule of Two any longer at that point, it didn’t work anymore. It couldn’t, not with both Sith Lords having no intention of honoring it.
On 3/2/2018 at 12:15 PM, FinarinPanjoro said:Wasn't the rule of two also a means of remaining in hiding from the Jedi for centuries, allowing them to grow complacent while the knowledge of the Sith was secretly passed on?
And thus the reason it could be abandoned once Darth Sidious plan was nearing fruition (leading to Ventress, the Inquisitors, etc) who are not Sith lords but could potentially become Sith some day.
I think that makes sense and I believe it isn't something that Sidious would feel obliged to follow.
On 3/3/2018 at 5:20 PM, nameless ronin said:Starkiller yes, Maul no. Dooku only became Darth Tyranus after Maul was (incorrectly) presumed dead; he was the replacement, not the competition.
Starkiller is also another exponent of the Rule of Two not really applying anymore to Sidious and Vader. Sidious intended to become the sole Sith Lord eventually, and he later pitted Luke and Vader against one another to try and get Luke to succumb to the Dark Side and become his new apprentice - not exactly the normal modus operandi, insofar as there is a “normal” that applies here. Vader took on an apprentice among other reasons to stand stronger when he was going to make his move against Sidious, also highly irregular. Neither abided by the Rule of Two any longer at that point, it didn’t work anymore. It couldn’t, not with both Sith Lords having no intention of honoring it.
I'll bite, where and when does this happen? I was under the impression based off some of The Clone Wars series that Dooku took off around or maybe before Maul and was attached to Sidious that way. I haven't read any of the books or comics from that era.
9 minutes ago, ASCI Blue said:
I'll bite, where and when does this happen? I was under the impression based off some of The Clone Wars series that Dooku took off around or maybe before Maul and was attached to Sidious that way. I haven't read any of the books or comics from that era.
Haven’t seen or read everything either, going off http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Sidious.
Part of the problem with the Rule of Two is that far and away most of the info we have about Sith Lord duos involves Darth Sidious, and he’s not really representative of the Master role. That gives a wrong impression.
On 3/5/2018 at 2:50 PM, nameless ronin said:Haven’t seen or read everything either, going off http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Sidious.
Part of the problem with the Rule of Two is that far and away most of the info we have about Sith Lord duos involves Darth Sidious, and he’s not really representative of the Master role. That gives a wrong impression.
Fair enough. Clone Wars confirmed Dooku was Jedi once, I believe it was in one of the episodes involving Mortis and it was a flashback. He appeared to be close to the age before Anakin decapitated him based off the series design.
4 hours ago, ASCI Blue said:
Fair enough. Clone Wars confirmed Dooku was Jedi once, I believe it was in one of the episodes involving Mortis and it was a flashback. He appeared to be close to the age before Anakin decapitated him based off the series design.
Dooku was a student of Yoda, and Qui-Gon’s master. He was a Jedi for a long time. Turning Jedi to the Dark Side was definitely a thing for Sidious.
5 hours ago, nameless ronin said:Dooku was a student of Yoda, and Qui-Gon’s master. He was a Jedi for a long time. Turning Jedi to the Dark Side was definitely a thing for Sidious.
That episode confirmed that, Dooku and Yoda...and maybe Qui-Gon were all there. What was odd about it, Dooku was still of around the same age he was in Attack of the Clones. Reading your link it doesn't specify when Palps decided to tempt Dooku, so being after Maul is a very viable option since there is a 8ish (?) year gap between TPM and AoC.
15 minutes ago, ASCI Blue said:
That episode confirmed that, Dooku and Yoda...and maybe Qui-Gon were all there. What was odd about it, Dooku was still of around the same age he was in Attack of the Clones. Reading your link it doesn't specify when Palps decided to tempt Dooku, so being after Maul is a very viable option since there is a 8ish (?) year gap between TPM and AoC.
If you're talking about Yoda's vision, I always took that as taking place in the present day, not the past. It was trying to convince him that Qui-Gon was still alive and Dooku was still a friend of the Jedi. His memories of a Clone War and all that must just be a dream, because this is here and now and it just feels right.
As for the Rule of Two, like many, many things in Star Wars, it's pretty stupid if you take it too literally. First off, accidents happen. A thousand years is a long time for an accident not to happen to two people at the same time. Considering that the Sith are violent people who will eventually try to kill each other, there are a lot of ways for things to go wrong.
Second, rules without enforcement ain't rules. As soon as the Master dies, whoever takes his place makes the rules. If he wants to throw out a rule, who's gonna argue? The "Sith Traditions" are whatever he decides to pass down to his apprentice.
Also, training an apprentice takes a long time. It's dangerous work, and odds are he's gonna die (quite possibly by your hand). You really want to train one guy for twenty years, only to have him get bisected by some Jedi punk, and then you have to start over from scratch? Come on, you're no spring chicken and you have a Galactic Senate to run! Darth Maul may have been your most promising student, but you still have Darth Ruck, Darth Scrum, and Darth Line-Out doing their thing. Of course, each one thinks he's the only apprentice. You don't want them teaming up on you, but any good schemer knows that you have to have a backup plan.
So the "Rule of Two" is a pretty good lie to use on your students, but it also works pretty well on the Jedi. "Hey, Jedi council, we just killed two Sith Lords on Korriban!"
"Good job! That's all of them. Always two there are, no more, no less. So there definitely aren't three more in hiding that just felt their master's death, declared themselves the Dark Lord of the Sith, and started working on their own nefarious schemes."
I'm a long time player of Swtor and a lover of old Republic lore as well as a giant fan of the bane trilogy so I really enjoyed reading people's comments here.
What I will say.. Is the Swtor series is a perfect example of the bad guys functioning perfectly until its time for what good guys to win.
The Sith, throughout the EU until and including Swtor, function perfectly when given a true purpose. It MUST be something of such grand importance that it does away with the squabbling that holds the Sith back. The individualistic nature of the darkside will not tolerate a still. This is what we are lead to believe and in Swtor that still happens as the game begins.
The rule of two is a poor attempt to counteract that still.
It doesn't really fix the problem it just accepts it and tries it's best to harness that. A better solution is something closer to Malgus plan which is an eternal conquest. If the war never ends then the infighting will never destroy us.
I like the rule of two as its flawed and almost human. But the fact that it leaves the Sith very easily destroyed cannot be ignored. It also relies on the whole harnessing the destiny of the force. Which would make sense once you're a sith master and capable of feeling that universal flow.. But if Darth bane is explaining this to someone... The simple argument against it is. What if you don't find a suitable apprentice before you get too old? Or what if you do and they only pretend to buy into it and find a cheap way of destroying you? What if you and your apprentice are doing great and a gaggle of jedi manage to find you and destroy you and the future of the Sith in an hour or two?
I think in the EU a sith master turns so drastically from his teachings that his student kills him just to save the rule of two. But by then he's already destroyed loads of information. If that information belonged to several sith it isn't as vulnerable.
It just doesn't make enough sense.
11 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:If you're talking about Yoda's vision, I always took that as taking place in the present day, not the past. It was trying to convince him that Qui-Gon was still alive and Dooku was still a friend of the Jedi. His memories of a Clone War and all that must just be a dream, because this is here and now and it just feels right.
As for the Rule of Two, like many, many things in Star Wars, it's pretty stupid if you take it too literally. First off, accidents happen. A thousand years is a long time for an accident not to happen to two people at the same time. Considering that the Sith are violent people who will eventually try to kill each other, there are a lot of ways for things to go wrong.
Second, rules without enforcement ain't rules. As soon as the Master dies, whoever takes his place makes the rules. If he wants to throw out a rule, who's gonna argue? The "Sith Traditions" are whatever he decides to pass down to his apprentice.
Also, training an apprentice takes a long time. It's dangerous work, and odds are he's gonna die (quite possibly by your hand). You really want to train one guy for twenty years, only to have him get bisected by some Jedi punk, and then you have to start over from scratch? Come on, you're no spring chicken and you have a Galactic Senate to run! Darth Maul may have been your most promising student, but you still have Darth Ruck, Darth Scrum, and Darth Line-Out doing their thing. Of course, each one thinks he's the only apprentice. You don't want them teaming up on you, but any good schemer knows that you have to have a backup plan.
So the "Rule of Two" is a pretty good lie to use on your students, but it also works pretty well on the Jedi. "Hey, Jedi council, we just killed two Sith Lords on Korriban!"
"Good job! That's all of them. Always two there are, no more, no less. So there definitely aren't three more in hiding that just felt their master's death, declared themselves the Dark Lord of the Sith, and started working on their own nefarious schemes."
Was it Yoda's vision? That would put it at S6 when he was roaming the galaxy learning how to be a force ghost. Jeez..been too long since I've watch the series.
On 3/2/2018 at 3:15 PM, FinarinPanjoro said:Wasn't the rule of two also a means of remaining in hiding from the Jedi for centuries, allowing them to grow complacent while the knowledge of the Sith was secretly passed on?
And thus the reason it could be abandoned once Darth Sidious plan was nearing fruition (leading to Ventress, the Inquisitors, etc) who are not Sith lords but could potentially become Sith some day.
This was the same impression I was under for the Rule of Two.
In my group we work with an alternative time line in where after Order 66 the Sith begin to rebuild the Old Sith Empire.
Some very fine arguments here, but they assume one fatal flaw - George Lucas cared about common sense when writing the prequels.
See also:
* Anakin made 3P0
* Midi chlorians
* "She's just lost the will to live" (though to be fair, so I had by that point)
On 2/14/2018 at 11:08 AM, KungFuFerret said:The fundamental issue is still there, it's just now been limited to 2 people, instead of potentially thousands.
While it doesn't do much for the infighting, it does reduce the number of targets on the back of the boss. A sith cult of 40 means that 39 people are gunning for the head man, more people to keep track of.
What I wonder about -the Jedi exterminate the sith, the last one in hiding finds a student and starts the rule of two. A thousand years pass, the sith in secret, they resurface and suddenly Yoda is all "Always two there are". Where did he get that little tidbit of knowledge? How did Yoda know about it?
18 minutes ago, Desslok said:What I wonder about -the Jedi exterminate the sith, the last one in hiding finds a student and starts the rule of two. A thousand years pass, the sith in secret, they resurface and suddenly Yoda is all "Always two there are". Where did he get that little tidbit of knowledge? How did Yoda know about it?
He didn't, that was retconning on the part of Lucas to try and shoehorn in the Rule of Two that had already been established, since they decided to run with it. Further reason why it's silly 
20 hours ago, Endersai said:Some very fine arguments here, but they assume one fatal flaw - George Lucas cared about common sense when writing the prequels.
See also:
* Anakin made 3P0
* Midi chlorians
* "She's just lost the will to live" (though to be fair, so I had by that point)
Now hang on there, Midi Chorians do make sense. Are you telling me that after thousands of years of studying the force, that it's entirely reasonable that the Jedi didn't even attempt to develop one method of identifying factors that collaborate in the force? To me it makes perfect sense, Midi cholorians aren't the force but they just gather in association to where the force is strong as some kind of bi-product, that can be measured in relation to proficiency in the force according to statistical trends. Why? So that Jedi can know at a glance whether someone is worth training or not; given that taking a padawan is a commitment that can last many years.
Now that in itself can indicate how far the Jedi had drifted from the will of the force into their republic protector role, but fundamentally from someone who has actually looked at cell cultures before, the prospect of analysing biproducts of a metabolic reaction makes perfect sense. I took much more issue with the "Chosen one" vague mumbling that is never explicitly explained, or Yoda knowing that the Sith are always in two's then a off hand comment on a scanner that indicates that this kid "might" be something special.
Everything else I agree with though.
Regarding the rule of two: It made sense from secusion, and given how one not actively drawing on the force could hide among senators for an exceedingly long length of time makes sense. But it really a bit of meta knowledge, and Sidious's grand plan might have been doomed had he not lined Dooku up (I had the impression that he had groomed the old man about the time the Trade Federation was starting to make moves.)
On 2018-02-14 at 8:04 PM, KungFuFerret said:The final result, is that they didn't accomplish their goal (Destroy the Jedi), and they didn't survive (they were wiped out, since only 2 of them existed). Rule of 2 didn't work.
It did for 1000 years. Just because it didn't work for 1001 doesn't mean it wasn't a good idea at the time. It's like saying gills are an evolutionary failure because someday the oceans will boil away...
I do think you're missing that even villains have "traditions", and traditions can change due to cataclysmic events. When almost all the adherents to a tradition are killed, the remaining two had to find a new way. A simplistic view might be that the Sith found that being Chaotic Evil wasn't working, so they switched over to Lawful Evil. Rather than running rampage in a feverish quest to grab what they could before they were killed, they resorted to behind-the-scenes machinations.
Ebola vs the Tumour.
In the end, it makes about as much sense as anything else in the Star Wars universe, maybe more sense than most things.
Another element with the Rule of Two to bear in mind is that we're looking at it from the outside. Most of the adherents of the Sith are by their nature power-hungry and willing to discard conventional morality, to say nothing of a great many of them being indoctrinated into the Sith culture from a young age.
In it's own way, the Sith philosophy, Rule of Two included, is very much a religious cult, one that's devoted to two goals: destroying the Jedi, and seizing control of the galaxy. And unless you've been indoctrinated into said cult, much of its ways and means don't make sense, and can seem silly if not out and out ludicrous. Church of Happyology anyone?
Then again, so are the Jedi, but they've got a generally more benevolent outlook in terms of the galactic populace, being self-appointed defenders of peace and justice, using their superhuman abilities for the betterment of their fellow sentient beings. But to an outsider, one that's not been raised in that culture, professing belief in an invisible entity that guides one's actions and is the alleged source of blatantly superhuman traits can be pretty sketchy. After all, we have a segment of the human populace that is skeptical of the claims and beliefs of the major organized religions, and while none of those express superhuman abilities, they do have their devoted adherents that simply accept the tenets of their faith without question.
Even the samurai ethos of Bushido can have plenty of holes poked into it by outside observation, and that's simply a set of guidelines of how to properly comport oneself in a particular society; the Scorpion Clan can have plenty of fun doing just that in the Legend of the Five Rings setting, and even other Clans in the setting don't take some tenets of Bushido as seriously as they do others (Lion being an exception due to their zealous adherence to Bushido).