Hi Folks!

gotta a quick question, can accuracy corrector be used with an auto blaster turret to lay down 2 un-cancelled hits?

Thanx in advance

the Shad

3 minutes ago, Shadowmax said:

Hi Folks!

gotta a quick question, can accuracy corrector be used with an auto blaster turret to lay down 2 un-cancelled hits?

Thanx in advance

the Shad

Yup!

yes it can, roll two dice for autoblasters, change results using accuracy corrector, let enemy suffer 2 hits

though luckily there are only 2 ships that can do this, the Scurrg with Havoc title, and the VCX, luckily one is unique and the other is a points fortress,(interesting how no imps got it yet), autoblaster (cannon) and Acc cor on a lambda just doesn't cut it with red hard turns

2 hours ago, CMDR Ytterium said:

though luckily there are only 2 ships that can do this, the Scurrg with Havoc title, and the VCX, luckily one is unique and the other is a points fortress,(interesting how no imps got it yet), autoblaster (cannon) and Acc cor on a lambda just doesn't cut it with red hard turns

For the regular Autoblaster (cannon), the combo is also technically an option for a B-Wing or (Scum Brobot) Aggressor... but I think we all know there are better ways to use points.

yeah for just a small range one attack its not worth it, I was saying that the cannon + accuracy corrector on the lambda is the only imperial option

I have had an issue with this for a long time. When attacking with Autoblaster, the defender cannot cancel Hit results with evade tokens or other added Evade results, such as from C-3PO. If you use Accuracy Corrector (which occurs in the Modify Dice Step), "When attacking, during the “Modify Attack Dice” step, you may cancel all of your dice results. Then, you may add 2 Hit results to your roll. Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack.” and " Dice results added by Accuracy Corrector can not be modified again, but can be canceled..."

There is a precedent set by Heavy Laser Cannon "When an attack is performed using Heavy Laser Cannon and all Crit results are changed to Hit results, the attack dice can be modified as normal. Any rerolled attack dice are not changed from Crit results to Hit results."

since the rerolled (modified) dice are no longer subject to the HLC rule ( Crit to Hit ), then any results from Accuracy Corrector (modified results) should no longer beholden to the original weapons rule, thus in the case of Autoblaster, the inability for the hits to be canceled.

(this is devil's advocate argument, I know how it has been currently ruled....but then again logic has failed on some recent rulings and I believe logic dictate a change to this one).

HLC rerolled crits are not changed because the timing of the HLC effect is 'immediately after rolling', not 'rolling or rerolling'. The trigger only happens once, when the red dice first hit the table. Rolls and rerolls are not the same.

However, hit results are hit results are hit results, regardless of source.

Devil's advocate arguments are really unhelpful, doubly so when they're wrong.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Devil's advocate arguments are really unhelpful, doubly so when they're wrong.

Actually they are far from unhelpful or wrong (by the nature they can't be since it is posing a counter point and therefore by logical reason is right). They do further discussion on mechanics that may have long laid forgotten or un-reviewed. To keep the game fresh, old logic must be reconsidered from time to time, else the infrastructure will decay and crumble.

That being said, the argument is still present despite your logic. If not for the "no more modification" you could in theory use a Target Lock to modify any results added by Accuracy Corrector. Therefor the logic is present that if HLC rerolled dice no longer adhere to the rule of the card (i.e. crit to hit), then ANY result added by during the modified dice step, that first cancels the original results, should not longer beholden to the original rule (rather than the current case specific HLC).

THAT'S NOT WHAT THE CARD SAYS THOUGH.

THe card says 'immediately after rolling dice do a thing'.

After rerolling dice is NOT the same as after rolling dice.

Not to mention that AB(T) and HLC have different wordings and timings. AB(T) says 'any hit results from this are uncancellable'. That doesn't say anything about where those hits come from (from AC, from Fearlessness, from wherever), and it doesn't specifically protect dice from the initial roll as being different in any way.

You are wrong. You are assuming that there are words on the card (AB(T), in this instance) that just aren't present.

For AB(T) to work how you want it would need to say something like 'immediately after rolling, set aside all hit results. These results cannot be cancelled by defence dice'. But that's *not what it says*.

Also, by your assertion about how AB(T) works, any modification of the dice would invalidate the 'cannot be cancelled' nature of it. So, rerolling, spending focus, etc, all of those would block the AB effect too. WHich they don't. Because that's not what the card says.

DWTCS, DDWTCDS.

I understand that the timing on the initial change for HLC says when you change them. My point is that further modification of the dice negates the original rule. Thus using AC to modify the dice after the initial roll should yield result that no longer follow the original rule.....

You really need to stop approaching your replies with the assumption that the OP (or in this case secondary posting) does not understand the your point of view just because it poses a different one. I understand the implications of the argument I am making, I am however asking a specific question which has a legitimate logic order. The is a discussion board, and I would like to actual discuss the implications rather than have you continuously simply dismiss any opposing perspective as a lack of understanding on the part of the person posing the view.

When you show any kind of evidence for your viewpoint from the cards, FAQ, or rulebook, I'll be pleased to address it in any kind of detail. But when your viewpoint is based on an unfounded assertion you've made up (in this case that modifying dice invalidates the AB(T) effect) which is not supported by the rules or cards or FAQ, I'm not going to stop saying it's incorrect (in this section, anyway, if you want to discuss it elsewhere as a possible rules change to rebalance the interaction, I'd be pleased to do that).

Your view isn't different, it's wrong. Demonstrably wrong. Insisting otherwise is actively unhelpful.

Specifically, your viewpoint indicates an fundamental misunderstanding of 'the HLC rule'.

You're reading HLC as saying 'all crit results must be changed to hit results' without any timing restrictions. But that's *not what it says*. It says ' immediately after rolling the dice , all crit results must be changed to hit results'. Then the effect is done. It has a specific, one-off timing, not an ongoing one. It triggers once, the results are changed, then it is done.

As opposed to AB(T) which has a blanket effect on all results from the attack, and no specified timing.

You are seeing an equivalency between the two which does not exist.

The whole question I posed was just that...
(It is really difficult to not respond in the belittling way you do, but I shall endeavor to continue to be cordial).

Attack with HLC (rule of HLC triggers), crits are turned to hits. Done, no argument.
Attack with AB (rule of AB is triggered), hits can not be canceled (by evades). Done, no argument.

Posed argument, during Modify Dice set (I don't care what modifies them at this point). Results are changed (via TL, AC, etc.)
now HLC: new results are no longer subject to rule (presumably because the trigger is passed and can not trigger again).
now AB: new results are still subject to rule (presumably because the trigger works infinite).
Proposed Logic issue: The results from the HLC being changed when rolled, is no different then the results of the AB when rolled. The AB does not state: After modifying your dice from now till no one gives a shite, no Hit result can be canceled by evades. No it says your results cannot be canceled. BUT if you use AC, you are CANCELING your original results to add 2 hits. A definitive trigger and timing now exist. WHY is still subject to the rule when in the case of HLC it would not be (though in the actual case of HLC, if you used AC there would be no point since it does not add crits, however that does not state that at some point in the future of the game this will not be the case and we will then be back here having this same discussion, but lo' I brought it up as a possibility to further discussion of the rules.... see how that works... evolution of the game via discussion and hypnotization....wow will wonders never end?).

Apologies to anyone else reading this and the snark tone that may be perceived, it is always my intent to embrace the discussion and opinions of the community rather than simply dismiss them out of hand with a pseudo superior air, I apologize for those that seem to do this here on a regular basis, it is not how to further a healthy atmosphere but alas there will be those...

They work differently because they are different cards with different timings and rules. I really cannot make it any clearer.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

They work differently because they are different cards with different timings and rules. I really cannot make it any clearer.

There are a lot of different cards that work similarly, as this is not so much about the timing of the original card as the timing of the mod (AC in this case). But you can't seem to see that. Anyway, your lack of willingness to discuss anything has still allowed a level of mentation on the subject that was helpful. So thank you for that. However it is obvious that continued discourse with your dismissive perspective will likely prove unfulfilling, so you may feel free to abandon the converse as your assistance has reached its terminus.
Thank you for your lack of input.

Please explain, by quoting the words on AC and AB(T), in the rules, and in the FAQ, why you assert that ACABT doesn't work. Don't reference HLC at all , it's not relevant to the discussion of that interaction. Just refer to those two cards, Accuracy Corrector (or Fearlessness, for the sake of argument) and Autoblaster (or Autoblaster Turret, because the wording on those two IS identical), the TFA rules reference, and the FAQ entries for those two (or four) cards.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Or if what you're doing is proposing a CHANGE to how they currently work, perhaps do it outside the rules questions section.

22 minutes ago, SkullNBones said:

BUT if you use AC, you are CANCELING your original results to add 2 hits.

It says they can't be canceled by evade results, not they can't be canceled at all.

The point is hlc says do stuff after rolling, it is specific in when it occurs. It doesn't say crits are banned for the duration of the attack just after the initial roll do the alteration.

Abt however has very different wording it is an effect in play during the entire attack sequence that forbids any attempt to use evade results to cancel hits. It doesn't care how you produce hits, it doesn't mind canceling from sources other than evade results.

You're not making a devils argument here, that would imply it is potentially a valid interpretation which is contrary to common opinion and needs discussing (devils arguement also implies you disagree with it yourself and only make the case in order to provoke discussion of the issue, it wouldn't be the devils arguement if you agree, then its just your argument).

You are stating how you want it to work, acknowledging it doesn't work that way, then getting offended when told this isn't productive to the thread. This sub forum isn't for debating how rules should work, its for explaining how rules do work to people asking a question. Making a knowingly faulty case here could confuse a new player.

8 minutes ago, Smitty said:

It says they can't be canceled by evade results, not they can't be canceled at all.

The point is hlc says do stuff after rolling, it is specific in when it occurs. It doesn't say crits are banned for the duration of the attack just after the initial roll do the alteration.

Abt however has very different wording it is an effect in play during the entire attack sequence that forbids any attempt to use evade results to cancel hits. It doesn't care how you produce hits, it doesn't mind canceling from sources other than evade results.

You're not making a devils argument here, that would imply it is potentially a valid interpretation which is contrary to common opinion and needs discussing (devils arguement also implies you disagree with it yourself and only make the case in order to provoke discussion of the issue, it wouldn't be the devils arguement if you agree, then its just your argument).

You are stating how you want it to work, acknowledging it doesn't work that way, then getting offended when told this isn't productive to the thread. This sub forum isn't for debating how rules should work, its for explaining how rules do work to people asking a question. Making a knowingly faulty case here could confuse a new player.

To the second part first, I do understand how it is run, I stated that originally. I also stated that I have had a problem with it and my "devils argument" is why. But that is semantics and not the point.

To the first part. Again I understand the differences between AB and HLC. My point is more to the why. If the rerolled results of HLC are no longer HLC results (meaning they are no longer bound by the card rule, due to the trigger having passed), then why is the AB rule still in effect since its results have been canceled (by AC)? I am saying that it is very important as to where the hits come from (the precedent for the source of a hit or mod being relevant has been set on multiple occasions (see Omega and Jostro), the only difference being in this case the source is from two different cards on the same ship, rather than different ships).

So the logic then follows, if the HLC results have been changed per its rule (triggered when rolled), the new results (triggered via reroll, etc.) are no longer bound by the HLC rule. Why should then AB rule still remain in effect (as its results have been canceled by AC) for different results created by AC, not AB.

Again, I fully understand the logic currently in place. I am attempting to further discussion to the end that there may be a fault in that logic (hence my entire proposal).

37 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Please explain, by quoting the words on AC and AB(T), in the rules, and in the FAQ, why you assert that ACABT doesn't work. Don't reference HLC at all , it's not relevant to the discussion of that interaction. Just refer to those two cards, Accuracy Corrector (or Fearlessness, for the sake of argument) and Autoblaster (or Autoblaster Turret, because the wording on those two IS identical), the TFA rules reference, and the FAQ entries for those two (or four) cards.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Or if what you're doing is proposing a CHANGE to how they currently work, perhaps do it outside the rules questions section.

Last response to you on the entire subject...if you look at my original response, I did quote the cards (I did neglect to site them, however there is no implication that the quoted text is owned or authored by me, however if you are a owner of FFG and would like to seek litigation against me via accusation of plagiarism, feel free) but the text was quoted from the cards/faq etc. hence the use of quotation marks.

Good bye.

18 minutes ago, SkullNBones said:

Again, I fully understand the logic currently in place. I am attempting to further discussion to the end that there may be a fault in that logic (hence my entire proposal).

The point is, you acknowledge you are incorrect, then continue to attempt to support a knowingly faulty premise in another persons thread, in a forum for stating how it is, not how it should be. Your entire line of reasoning could be misunderstood as being a basis for believing your faulty premise is a fact, by a new player.

I don't know how to make this more clear, HLC says do the swap after rolling, it doesn't stay in effect, there isn't a rule on hlc that says no crits allowed. It only says after rolling flip the crits. That's it you satiate the card text. After a reroll you didn't "After rolling" when you spend a focus you didn't trigger "after rolling" it isn't a no crits allowed sign hovering over your dice it is a specifically timed event of after rolling.

There is no such restriction on abt it is effectively a big sign over the entire attack saying no evades canceling hits. It has no specific time during the attack, its for the duration. You point to an evade result at any time, i point at the card and say not so fast there pal, no can do.

There is nothing ambiguous here. And if this is a devils arguement case there requires the potential for the arguement to be valid, just not something you agree with. You acknowledge its false, you continue to attempt known faulty arguments based on extremely loose similarities in cards. Nothing from the rules or FAQ stated to support it, and you seem to acknowledge hlc has a specific instance It occurs, then later refer to it as a rule, implying you disregarded even your own Statement. That's not a devils arguement, that's trolling a forum.

2 minutes ago, Smitty said:

The point is, you acknowledge you are incorrect, then continue to attempt to support a knowingly faulty premise in another persons thread, in a forum for stating how it is, not how it should be. Your entire line of reasoning could be misunderstood as being a basis for believing your faulty premise is a fact, by a new player.

I do not acknowledge I am incorrect. I said I am posing an argument that is counter to the current logic (which may have a hole in it that is the entire point of the purposed counter argument. Please read the wording of my original post. Continuing to debate the existence of the counter argument without discussing it, is driving this off the original thread purpose. Discussing the counter perspective furthers the original post discussion.

Anyway it's late (early), time to move on to more productive endeavors as this is a game after all and since actual discussion on a discussion forum seems to be rendered moot.

Let the bread crumbs fall where they may, trolls have to eat too.

2 hours ago, SkullNBones said:

I have had an issue with this for a long time. When attacking with Autoblaster, the defender cannot cancel Hit results with evade tokens or other added Evade results, such as from C-3PO. If you use Accuracy Corrector (which occurs in the Modify Dice Step), "When attacking, during the “Modify Attack Dice” step, you may cancel all of your dice results. Then, you may add 2 Hit results to your roll. Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack.” and " Dice results added by Accuracy Corrector can not be modified again, but can be canceled..."

There is a precedent set by Heavy Laser Cannon "When an attack is performed using Heavy Laser Cannon and all Crit results are changed to Hit results, the attack dice can be modified as normal. Any rerolled attack dice are not changed from Crit results to Hit results."

since the rerolled (modified) dice are no longer subject to the HLC rule ( Crit to Hit ), then any results from Accuracy Corrector (modified results) should no longer beholden to the original weapons rule, thus in the case of Autoblaster, the inability for the hits to be canceled.

(this is devil's advocate argument, I know how it has been currently ruled....but then again logic has failed on some recent rulings and I believe logic dictate a change to this one).

This makes no sense.

With the text on Autoblaster weapons, the effect is clear: your hits cannot be canceled by defense dice. It doesn't have anything to say where the hits came from, whether they were acquired by natural roll, focus tokens, Fearlessness, Accuracy Corrector. Nothing. Just the simple language that your hit results cannot be canceled by defense dice. Discussion ought to be over at this point. I think there's less rules confusion on this, than there is incredulity that a powerful combo is allowed.

Heavy Laser Cannon doesn't seem at all illustrative to me. Here, there is a trigger that calls for a unique kind of dice modification. To say that dice later modified aren't subject to the "HLC rule" is inaccurate: they were subject to the rule, but the the rule only applies to a specific moment which has passed. New dice aren't "immune" to the rule or exempt from it: they already followed the rule in the past and are done.

It's like you had some food delivered from a restaurant, and a friend happens to come over and you decide to share. The fact that you're sharing with a friend doesn't exempt you all from the rule saying you've got to pay the restaurant for the food: rather, you already paid before your friend got there. That's how HLC works.

There's just not precedent from HLC which can be applied to Autoblaster.

4 hours ago, SkullNBones said:

now AB: new results are still subject to rule (presumably because the trigger works infinite).

That is your problem. It is not a trigger. You decided it is, but it is not. It is a continous effect applied during this attack. Yes the effect of Autblaster should in fact state during this attack, but the rules seems to imply that effect on a secondary weapon apply only when you use this weapon.

So there is no trigger, in just say: Your HIT result cannot be canceled by defence dice. End of story.

You also seems to forget that they stated in the FAQ that rolling and rerolling are not the same thing. HLC do not change result on reroll because it can't trigger, the trigger watch for Roll, not for Reroll. Like it or not in this game a Roll and a Reroll ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Stop trying to say HLC "arbitrary" stop working, it is not, it continue to work ALL ATTACK LONG. If there is ever an effect that make you roll additional dice during the modify step, THEY WILL BE SUBJECT TO HLC RULE...