I know in the overall community we're a tiny fraction but would it be terrible to get some narrative/campaign type releases or rules for those of us who hate meta/tourney type play?

Detailed mutli-scenario story arcs with some kind of 'advanced' rules for jumping in/out, additional ship waves, command points or something along those lines would be very welcome. Yes, I knew we can house rule all that stuff but I would like something official instead of just a steady stream of ships and cards.

You‘re preaching to the choir

The people playing exclusively in tournaments for competition may be loud but rather rare.

Until we see the campaign pack: have you heard of Heroes of the Aturi Cluster? It‘s awesome and tons of fun

In an interview with the Scum and Villany podcast, the developers mentioned the idea of doing campaign packs, like they did for Armada. Unfortunately, they came to the conclusion that they have the manpower to "make more ships" or "make campaign boxes", and "make more ships" always wins that argument.

I've been wondering it the Armada Corellian Conflict could be run for X wing. To jump out of the system, instead of discarding your command dial, you could make it an action. Otherwise I'm not quite sure why it wouldn't work. You could run it at the 400-500pt range, or just divid everything by 4 and play 100-125.

Edit: While there are no objectives in X wing, you could definitely add a bunch of the armada ones to the game if you adapt the player 1/2 aspect somehow.

Are you forgetting they already made casual only expansions, are you forgetting about the punisher, quadjumper and the U-wing???? :-)

It’s the debate of more ships or a campaign. They’ve decided it is more profitable to make more ships. I can’t fault them for that.

Play HotAC. Play standard xwing. Play everything you enjoy and have fun. Casual xwing can be had even in standard format.

Tournament players are definitely the minority. But less people have the energy for a full campaign, so I applaud you!

They don't need to make products for that is the real reason! People get really good at doing this themselves. HotAC is a good starting point, but after that, it's often nice to switch to an RPG-style game, either with FFG's RPG rules or other custom rules. I've run a lot like this, just let me know if you want them and I'll try to share those rules with you!

They literally just announced a pack with a U-Wing and an X-Wing in it today...

13 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Tournament players are definitely the minority. But less people have the energy for a full campaign, so I applaud you!

They don't need to make products for that is the real reason! People get really good at doing this themselves. HotAC is a good starting point, but after that, it's often nice to switch to an RPG-style game, either with FFG's RPG rules or other custom rules. I've run a lot like this, just let me know if you want them and I'll try to share those rules with you!

Yes! I'd love to, thanks.

Tourney players are actually the minority by far. The majority of people who purchase this game only ever play on their kitchen tables. And to echo everyone else, the game already has an amazing fan made campaign in HotAC. I can't recommend it enough. Also, the epic ships come with mutli-mission scenarios to play through too.

Fine, FFG will only do ships. But that doesn't mean they can't design for casual play. To wit:

A. Small and Large based ships that feature mechanics that make them EPIC ONLY.

B. Factionless ships that are great for narrative play:

C. Support ships that would not be useful without larger squads.

D. Titles and mechanics for squads released with new ships.

E. Unique "Superweapons" that might be too much for 100/6 but would not be overpowered in larger scenarios.

F. New fighters that don't break a lot of new ground but people would like to see on their tables: Skipray, N1, Chiss Clawcraft, TIE Hunter/Oppressor/Avenger.

The irony is that while tournament players are the minority, that's exactly who is being designed for.

Then, the casual players are spending tons of money elsewhere to get their fix.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Fine, FFG will only do ships. But that doesn't mean they can't design for casual play. To wit:

A. Small and Large based ships that feature mechanics that make them EPIC ONLY.

B. Factionless ships that are great for narrative play:

C. Support ships that would not be useful without larger squads.

D. Titles and mechanics for squads released with new ships.

E. Unique "Superweapons" that might be too much for 100/6 but would not be overpowered in larger scenarios.

F. New fighters that don't break a lot of new ground but people would like to see on their tables: Skipray, N1, Chiss Clawcraft, TIE Hunter/Oppressor/Avenger.

The irony is that while tournament players are the minority, that's exactly who is being designed for.

Then, the casual players are spending tons of money elsewhere to get their fix.

There's nothing keeping you from casually playing with your own rules. For example, if you consider it Rebel vs. Empire, then there are tons of ships that have been released that are factionless and can be used for narrative play. And while there aren't any ships that are small/large that are epic only, there are some upgrades that you can take for epic only (such as Leia crew). The HWK is the perfect example of a ship that's not (often) useful in 100 point but great in larger point games. I think everyone would like more titles and a good portion of folks would like more squad mechanics. Both of these things have been going on in Armada, so perhaps they'll come back to X Wing (Not only do they have titles for their ships, but there are different refits such as VSD-1 or VSD-2 that change some aspects of the ship chassis. Then there are titles that can be used. Some of the newer titles are squadron based, such as "Star Destroyer Only" generic titles that each SD can equip and give others benefits, so basically the squadron component you're asking for). I'm pretty sure your epic ships are what dictate the super weapons that may be too much in 100/6 (since they typically cost approx 150pts). And FFG is all about releasing new fighters. In case you haven't noticed, there's like 50 different ships you can choose from, with more coming out all the time.

So, I guess I don't know what you're expecting of FFG. I think it's BS to say that they're designing exclusively for tourney players. And I would like to see data behind your claim that casuals are spending all the money elsewhere to get their fix. I don't have any data myself, but I'd be highly skeptical that the average casual has anywhere near the investment that a tourney player does. And while there are most certainly more casuals than tourneys, I don't know where the multiplier of how much spent is. Furthermore, I don't see any evidence that casuals are spending their money elsewhere in droves. Perhaps @melminiatures could point us in the right direction as far as how much of his business he sees popping back up on these forums (as a way to estimate how much of the 3D printing market goes to tourney players vs. casuals).

3 hours ago, izrador said:

Yes! I'd love to, thanks.

Here's the latest we ran, which was a campaign-type thing where each person had an entire fleet. This was really, really hard to do, and ended up not working out great because people were too busy, but if you find a group that's able to do this, please let me know how it works out!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YKzM2CiwG6VccPPA_DNg1lQmUJXYBe4e/view?usp=sharing

After a little testing, we ended up adding a few errata to those rules.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RA0z28IilJg59l7DwWWHM5boT03K1PM6/view?usp=sharing

I've got a few sets of older rules for different things that were more RPG-like (one ship per person), but I don't have those on my laptop, so I'll share those later when I get home to my desktop.

1 hour ago, Khyros said:

There's nothing keeping you from casually playing with your own rules. For example, if you consider it Rebel vs. Empire, then there are tons of ships that have been released that are factionless and can be used for narrative play. And while there aren't any ships that are small/large that are epic only, there are some upgrades that you can take for epic only (such as Leia crew). The HWK is the perfect example of a ship that's not (often) useful in 100 point but great in larger point games. I think everyone would like more titles and a good portion of folks would like more squad mechanics. Both of these things have been going on in Armada, so perhaps they'll come back to X Wing (Not only do they have titles for their ships, but there are different refits such as VSD-1 or VSD-2 that change some aspects of the ship chassis. Then there are titles that can be used. Some of the newer titles are squadron based, such as "Star Destroyer Only" generic titles that each SD can equip and give others benefits, so basically the squadron component you're asking for). I'm pretty sure your epic ships are what dictate the super weapons that may be too much in 100/6 (since they typically cost approx 150pts). And FFG is all about releasing new fighters. In case you haven't noticed, there's like 50 different ships you can choose from, with more coming out all the time.

So, I guess I don't know what you're expecting of FFG. I think it's BS to say that they're designing exclusively for tourney players. And I would like to see data behind your claim that casuals are spending all the money elsewhere to get their fix. I don't have any data myself, but I'd be highly skeptical that the average casual has anywhere near the investment that a tourney player does. And while there are most certainly more casuals than tourneys, I don't know where the multiplier of how much spent is. Furthermore, I don't see any evidence that casuals are spending their money elsewhere in droves. Perhaps @melminiatures could point us in the right direction as far as how much of his business he sees popping back up on these forums (as a way to estimate how much of the 3D printing market goes to tourney players vs. casuals).

I play my own home brew missions all the time. And FFG has stated they are not going to waste any manpower on anything that isn't a ship, so I already know I'm on my own there.

--------

As for FFG, I have never heard the devs talk about the game not in the context of tournament play. They talk meta, they talk top tables, they talk winner-designed cards, and they talk 100/6. Point me to an Epic-only interview by the devs. I'd love to watch it.

I am highly doubtful tournament players are spending anywhere near casual levels. Tournament players seem to buy 1 of any ship they are interested in; maybe two. They spend what they need to spend to succeed in this season's meta. Epic players buy multiples for certain. No, I don't have hard data, I guess we could start an informal survey and see who falls out where. Moreover, casual/epic players gladly drop $100 for a Huge ship without whining they were bilked for 1 card only.

And for spending money elsewhere, you should check out @Refugeanoth 's, @Marinealver 's and @weisguy119 campaigns. They supplement this game a lot, and given the 3D Huge ships they are printing out, I'm betting they splash some cash. Other players are spending money on ground terrain, Death Star Trench Run mats, and the printing costs to get a nice HoTAC set up. A bunch of players just has cards made at 3rd party companies based on the Objective-based 100/6 from these boards. People seem to be doing more than spending a little money to fluff up the game; they seem to be spending a lot to reinvent it.

For myself, I have multiples of all the HUGE ships, not just the starships. Because when I write a scenario that involves 3 C-ROCs making a blockade run, I want 3 C-ROCs.

19 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

You‘re preaching to the choir

The people playing exclusively in tournaments for competition may be loud but rather rare.

Until we see the campaign pack: have you heard of Heroes of the Aturi Cluster? It‘s awesome and tons of fun

@izrador also in addition to the above, if you haven't seen it you should check out X-wing community objective play which is definitely a nice break from 100/6:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/265439-alternative-play-format-objectives-for-x-wing/

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I play my own home brew missions all the time. And FFG has stated they are not going to waste any manpower on anything that isn't a ship, so I already know I'm on my own there.

--------

As for FFG, I have never heard the devs talk about the game not in the context of tournament play. They talk meta, they talk top tables, they talk winner-designed cards, and they talk 100/6. Point me to an Epic-only interview by the devs. I'd love to watch it.

I am highly doubtful tournament players are spending anywhere near casual levels. Tournament players seem to buy 1 of any ship they are interested in; maybe two. They spend what they need to spend to succeed in this season's meta. Epic players buy multiples for certain. No, I don't have hard data, I guess we could start an informal survey and see who falls out where. Moreover, casual/epic players gladly drop $100 for a Huge ship without whining they were bilked for 1 card only.

And for spending money elsewhere, you should check out @Refugeanoth 's, @Marinealver 's and @weisguy119 campaigns. They supplement this game a lot, and given the 3D Huge ships they are printing out, I'm betting they splash some cash. Other players are spending money on ground terrain, Death Star Trench Run mats, and the printing costs to get a nice HoTAC set up. A bunch of players just has cards made at 3rd party companies based on the Objective-based 100/6 from these boards. People seem to be doing more than spending a little money to fluff up the game; they seem to be spending a lot to reinvent it.

For myself, I have multiples of all the HUGE ships, not just the starships. Because when I write a scenario that involves 3 C-ROCs making a blockade run, I want 3 C-ROCs.

What casuals are going to watch interviews with the devs? I suppose we have a different view of what a casual player would be doing. If we state that an average tourney player buys one of everything, then that's $1315 in non-epic stuff, and an additional $390 in epic stuff for a total of $1705. That's a ridiculous amount of money. I have a very difficult time that your average player spends anywhere *near* that amount on the game. For comparison, Rebellion costs $100 and the expansion $40. It's not a fast paced dog fighting game, but it definitely has the Star Wars feel for only $140. It just doesn't seem like a casual would spend 10 times the amount on X Wing, but perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps there are casuals who want to be able to run anything and everything, but they're only going to be buying ships they want to run, so let's say the ships in the movies, but they buy 2 of all of those. That's $1200 in non-epic, and $300 in epic, still less than a tourney player. And in the scenario you gave where you are buying 3 C-ROCs for a scenario you want to run... how many people are you playing with? What's their level of investment? For every casual who has a huge fleet and spends tons of time and money and resources putting together game night for his buddies, you probably have 3-4 free loaders who have minimal investment. Tourney players have everything themselves.

For the rest of the stuff you mentioned, FFG is *not* in that industry. Huge Nebulon-B models are completely different construction and distribution than a Falcon or even a Raider. The internal structure of the model is going to be different because the size and weight of it is going to require more support. Furthermore, the amount of empty volume is huge. And then you have the issue of distributing it. A single Neb-B is going to take up the space of about 6 Raiders in shipping costs, which I assure you, is one of the largest contributors to their bottom line. How many people do you think are going to be willing to spend $500 on a single Nebulon-B? Well, actually, we probably know that seeing as that's about what it costs to have it 3D printed, and I know of a handful of people that have one. As for the ground terrain, if they wanted to be in the market for it, then they would be providing it for Legion. They haven't indicated they want to do this, which means they've deemed for a game designed around ground terrain, they do not have the desire to provide the ground terrain. So why would they supply it for a game designed to be played in space without any rules or interaction with ground terrain? They do make mats, but perhaps they learned from GF9 that a death star terrain map is an awful idea, and they're not really going to design a 3D playing surface for an actual trench. Which brings us to people paying to print HotAC, and that's really the only thing FFG has shown any interest in doing via Armada's CC. I agree with you that they could probably have a good return on a cards only scenario pack. I am surprised that they haven't made one yet, especially considering the success of CC, but perhaps they still have one in the works. Or perhaps they've decided that it'd be too difficult to play asymmetric games of X wing, thus a campaign scenario pack isn't the best thing for X Wing. Or perhaps they're waiting for everything to declare the sky is falling, so they can leverage said campaign pack to issue XWM v2.0.

I would bet the casual market is still bigger in terms of spend than the tournament players. Even if it’s a dad who buys a starter set and a Falcon, maybe a couple of others, there will be volumes and volumes of those guys who you never hear about.

Youre right in the sense they won’t consume the online content as fervently though.

33 minutes ago, Khyros said:

What casuals are going to watch interviews with the devs? I suppose we have a different view of what a casual player would be doing. If we state that an average tourney player buys one of everything, then that's $1315 in non-epic stuff, and an additional $390 in epic stuff for a total of $1705. That's a ridiculous amount of money. I have a very difficult time that your average player spends anywhere *near* that amount on the game. For comparison, Rebellion costs $100 and the expansion $40. It's not a fast paced dog fighting game, but it definitely has the Star Wars feel for only $140. It just doesn't seem like a casual would spend 10 times the amount on X Wing, but perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps there are casuals who want to be able to run anything and everything, but they're only going to be buying ships they want to run, so let's say the ships in the movies, but they buy 2 of all of those. That's $1200 in non-epic, and $300 in epic, still less than a tourney player. And in the scenario you gave where you are buying 3 C-ROCs for a scenario you want to run... how many people are you playing with? What's their level of investment? For every casual who has a huge fleet and spends tons of time and money and resources putting together game night for his buddies, you probably have 3-4 free loaders who have minimal investment. Tourney players have everything themselves.

For the rest of the stuff you mentioned, FFG is *not* in that industry. Huge Nebulon-B models are completely different construction and distribution than a Falcon or even a Raider. The internal structure of the model is going to be different because the size and weight of it is going to require more support. Furthermore, the amount of empty volume is huge. And then you have the issue of distributing it. A single Neb-B is going to take up the space of about 6 Raiders in shipping costs, which I assure you, is one of the largest contributors to their bottom line. How many people do you think are going to be willing to spend $500 on a single Nebulon-B? Well, actually, we probably know that seeing as that's about what it costs to have it 3D printed, and I know of a handful of people that have one. As for the ground terrain, if they wanted to be in the market for it, then they would be providing it for Legion. They haven't indicated they want to do this, which means they've deemed for a game designed around ground terrain, they do not have the desire to provide the ground terrain. So why would they supply it for a game designed to be played in space without any rules or interaction with ground terrain? They do make mats, but perhaps they learned from GF9 that a death star terrain map is an awful idea, and they're not really going to design a 3D playing surface for an actual trench. Which brings us to people paying to print HotAC, and that's really the only thing FFG has shown any interest in doing via Armada's CC. I agree with you that they could probably have a good return on a cards only scenario pack. I am surprised that they haven't made one yet, especially considering the success of CC, but perhaps they still have one in the works. Or perhaps they've decided that it'd be too difficult to play asymmetric games of X wing, thus a campaign scenario pack isn't the best thing for X Wing. Or perhaps they're waiting for everything to declare the sky is falling, so they can leverage said campaign pack to issue XWM v2.0.

Me. And a lot of others. You think that because we don't play meta and go to tournaments we don't care about how the game is made?

Plus, in my circle of friends you are wrong about what a casual will buy. OTOH, YMMV.

Do tournament players buy one of everything? Or do they just collect one faction and a few expacs for required upgrades? Do casual players collect one of everything?? Is it all equal because everyone buys one of everything, more or less??

Sorry, but that first paragraph smacks of tourney elitism. Casual players love/spend/explore in this game, too. For every expac a player "must buy" to compete, there is some Star Wars fan playing this game that buys the same pack because it's a "favorite ship." For every casual that freeloads, there might be a tournament player that only buys exactly the ships for one list, and then buys required upgrades on the secondary market.

I can't refute anything you said in the second paragraph, however.

I'm not saying that FFG should try to capture every X-Wing dollar, but I do think that they are letting quite a few slip thru their fingers that they could collect if they were more attentive to casual/epic/narrative play. (Which, BTW, is the thrust of this thread, so clearly there is a desire. . .)

44 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Me. And a lot of others. You think that because we don't play meta and go to tournaments we don't care about how the game is made?

Plus, in my circle of friends you are wrong about what a casual will buy. OTOH, YMMV.

Do tournament players buy one of everything? Or do they just collect one faction and a few expacs for required upgrades? Do casual players collect one of everything?? Is it all equal because everyone buys one of everything, more or less??

Sorry, but that first paragraph smacks of tourney elitism. Casual players love/spend/explore in this game, too. For every expac a player "must buy" to compete, there is some Star Wars fan playing this game that buys the same pack because it's a "favorite ship." For every casual that freeloads, there might be a tournament player that only buys exactly the ships for one list, and then buys required upgrades on the secondary market.

I can't refute anything you said in the second paragraph, however.

I'm not saying that FFG should try to capture every X-Wing dollar, but I do think that they are letting quite a few slip thru their fingers that they could collect if they were more attentive to casual/epic/narrative play. (Which, BTW, is the thrust of this thread, so clearly there is a desire. . .)

48 minutes ago, Sbloom141 said:

I would bet the casual market is still bigger in terms of spend than the tournament players. Even if it’s a dad who buys a starter set and a Falcon, maybe a couple of others, there will be volumes and volumes of those guys who you never hear about.

Youre right in the sense they won’t consume the online content as fervently though.

This is my vision of a casual player, not the one that Darth Meanie is portraying. Someone who spends thousands of dollars, listens to dev interviews and creates scenarios is *not* a casual player. He may not be a tourney player, but he is most definitely hard core. I expect there to be like 50x more casuals than tourney players. But I expect there to be more tourney players than the hardcore players than DM is portraying. Few people are going to get so dedicated and invested in this game and then not choose to see how well they do at a tourney. They maybe casual tourney goers, but they'll likely still go to some. That's actually the group I would classify myself in. I like playing 100/6, but I prefer to play pretty much anything else. I've played through several HotAC scenarios (and printed out all the stuff myself), and wish that it'd be more updated (though I understand the FB group has a good amount of updated content for it). I'm currently participating in a CC campaign in Armada. I haven't played X Wing competitively since Gencon, and went to the Armada Ohio Regional as the only competition since then. I'll be going to the Michigan X Wing Regional in March. I might go to a few store championships for either game, but the only time I'm actually going to invest in winning will be at Gencon next year. And yet I've spent $1700+ on just the materials of the game, own 2 of every epic ship, (though have never gotten a C-ROC on the table because I don't like scum) and am always itching for a 1000v1000 or 2000v2000 beerfest of a game. I can tell you from my own experience, finding hardcore non-tourney players is MUCH harder than finding tourney players. And judging by the amount of stock my FLGS goes through compared to the number of people who show up and play competitively, the majority of the stock is sold to casuals.

FFG has also recently stepped up their attention to Epic. Not only have we gotten another ship in the past year, but they've issued the first rules update in over 2 years. They've also created a sub-forum specifically for the play style. They include scenarios and mini-campaigns in every epic ship - the very first one required you to buy 3 GR-75s. And the fact that epic even exists means that they're dedicated to capturing a good bit of the casual market.

Edit: And apparently they JUST released an Epic FAQ update. So yeah, FFG cares about it.

It would be nice to have an official product, but at least there are fan made ones.

Shuttle Tydirium also made Assault on Grey Skull Base....complete with background audio dramas.

15 minutes ago, Khyros said:

He may not be a tourney player, but he is most definitely hard core.

Thanks!

Hey, @izrador , here's the one we had the most success with! Jumpmasters got stupid broken though.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wIAxbMHy8nPCFEiDjkAEGc91bnE-QiFm/view?usp=sharing

As other people have mentioned, if you want to play something other than 100/6, you need to just make your own **** up.

I've just popped this alternate game mode up: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/269802-x-wing-squadron-battles/

When I get the time I'll try and actually put all the info for each squad into a nice printable card.

What I'd really love to do though is make a Smuggler's Run campaign. Would basically be HotAC meets the Firefly board game.

I have all the ideas in my head for it, but I've neither the patience nor the skill to turn it into a thing.

7 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Fine, FFG will only do ships. But that doesn't mean they can't design for casual play. To wit:

A. Small and Large based ships that feature mechanics that make them EPIC ONLY.

B. Factionless ships that are great for narrative play:

C. Support ships that would not be useful without larger squads.

D. Titles and mechanics for squads released with new ships.

E. Unique "Superweapons" that might be too much for 100/6 but would not be overpowered in larger scenarios.

F. New fighters that don't break a lot of new ground but people would like to see on their tables: Skipray, N1, Chiss Clawcraft, TIE Hunter/Oppressor/Avenger.

The irony is that while tournament players are the minority, that's exactly who is being designed for.

Then, the casual players are spending tons of money elsewhere to get their fix.

From an accounting perspective, Epic/Cinematic only expansions would not be expected to sell as well as expansions that could be used by Kitchen Table and Competitive players as well as epic/Cinematic players

As for the choice of which ships get released, I imagine FFG's selection process depends on how well they think something will sell (relative to alternative choices). I imagine the mainfactors that affect ship choice are things like how recognisable a ship is to the average consumer (Rebels and Movie content primarily), how popular a ship is with the hardcore Star Wars Fanbase (what finally saved the Gunboat) , and the opportunity to innovate design.