Warmachine in particular is what comes to mind. They recently released a complete 3.0 version that rebalanced everything. Initially, they just released card packs for the different factions with the updated stats, but I fully understand that's not something FFG wants to do, but I think they'd be better off doing a variation of what they did shortly after that, releasing all the rules and cards online through an official app. I'd love to see FFG do this, and I really don't see a big downside for them - the casual community will keep proxying like they always have, but will be more satisfied with the accessibility. The competitive side will still have to have the original cards, they just won't need to get updated versions as they have them available on their phone. Additionally, now the competitive community will have an official squad building app that could make the whole process so much easier. Then just release reprints with the updated cards, and charge for the app, and you're good to go - I'd suggest doing it like Warmachine does with their app where you buy factions individually, rather than one large bulk purchase.

The other thing I REALLY want to see added is a version of the objectives system from Armada. This could solve so many balancing issues by allowing a variety of playstyles, while still having to tune your build to respond to different threats and different gameplay designs. This might also make support ships much more viable, which I would LOVE to see, honestly.

9 minutes ago, joyrock said:

The other thing I REALLY want to see added is a version of the objectives system from Armada. This could solve so many balancing issues by allowing a variety of playstyles, while still having to tune your build to respond to different threats and different gameplay designs. This might also make support ships much more viable, which I would LOVE to see, honestly.

I’d rather have campaign packs than 2.0. And I’m sure FFG/Asmodee has no time to spend on completely redoing the rule set of a SW game when they can just launch a new game (Legion).

I would hate new updates in an app only.

If we were ever to get a 2.0 I don't think it would be until after Episode 9 comes out, and it is a difficult bridge to cross to since they will need to somehow make all the content people still have useful to some extent or end up pissing off/losing a bit of their game's fanbase while trying to make it all work with the changes.

I've said this before, what if the 2.0 upgrade was considered a stand alone product?

FFG have released upgrade boxes for other games, and ecen the plastic dials takes onto account previous releases lacking components.

If 2.0 x-wing was released as a type of seperate game, they could call it x-wing advanced. Release new cards and rules, keep the old rules going for a while, but new releases will have Original and Advanced versions of cards. Eventually, you phase out the old.

I stopped playing Warmachine after V2 because of the dumbing down and removal of flavor. Soo I hope not.

What if 2.0 is just the Clone Wars era with completely new ships? It would fix the balancing issues...

I don't understand the need to make a 2.0. I think a squad builder app is a separate issue from fundamentaly changing the rules of the game.

I think an app with frequent FAQs/patches is the right way to go for tournament play. It also won't effect casual players if they don't want it to.

I think the beauty of X-wing is that there are so many ships at this point and you can play them all. Yes it’s annoying to have to check the FAQ. Yes it’s hard for new players to grasp it all.

But the meta seems as balanced as it’s ever been right now. Newer ships are always going to have an advantage so people buy them no matter what version. I don’t know, the game just seems like it’s hitting it’s stride right now. Does it really need a major overhaul?

I was around for the transition to Warmachine MkII and Malifaux 2e. Both posted cards online and reprinted which was great. Both had rounds open beta testing which was freaking awesome! It was very cool to see the varied iterations of my favorite stuff being tailored.

One cool thing here is that with xwing-data (https://github.com/guidokessels/xwing-data) and various bits of web tech thT the community has come up with, building out something like what war machine does is not a hard project.

The hard part is getting the organizational momentum to do the project as a whole.

I can’t see a 2.0 happen as there’s no justification to sell more miniatures. The effort for FFG would outweigh the potential profit.

If there’s a healthy future for the game it’ll be community led.

Community is probably only going to rally behind creating 2.0 once FFG loses the license.

3 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I've said this before, what if the 2.0 upgrade was considered a stand alone product?

FFG have released upgrade boxes for other games, and ecen the plastic dials takes onto account previous releases lacking components.

If 2.0 x-wing was released as a type of seperate game, they could call it x-wing advanced. Release new cards and rules, keep the old rules going for a while, but new releases will have Original and Advanced versions of cards. Eventually, you phase out the old.

I would quit buying new product.

I did the same thing when GURPS transitioned from 3e to 4e and changed the fundamental nature of character building. They are "sorta compatible," but I wasn't about to revisit (read: rebuy) everything that needed to shift from 3e to 4e.

I still play GURPS every month. SJGames hasn't seen any of my money since 2004.

3 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

What if 2.0 is just the Clone Wars era with completely new ships? It would fix the balancing issues...

I would only be OK with this if they were 100% compatible on the dining room table with current X-Wing.

I think some balance issues would fix if more factions (Republic, CiS) were available in the current game.

3 hours ago, Rexler Brath said:

I don't understand the need to make a 2.0. I think a squad builder app is a separate issue from fundamentaly changing the rules of the game.

I think an app with frequent FAQs/patches is the right way to go for tournament play. It also won't effect casual players if they don't want it to.

Not everyone has a phone or wants their game to be strictly electronic.

Making it easier to constantly change the game will only make the game even more confusing when updates can happen faster than releases.

And casual players deserve the same level of attention as tournament players. . .their game should be just as good, all the time.

Thanks to power creep accretion and an abundance of useless old upgrade cards (and some pilot cards as well) a type of 2.0 that incorporates some sort of competitive rotation sounds like a good idea when compared to well what we have now with cards outdated out of the box and a PDF file as an intermediary between a virtual game and a table top game.

8 hours ago, joyrock said:

...

The other thing I REALLY want to see added is a version of the objectives system from Armada. This could solve so many balancing issues by allowing a variety of playstyles, while still having to tune your build to respond to different threats and different gameplay designs. This might also make support ships much more viable, which I would LOVE to see, honestly.

While Objectives may seem like a nice addition I don't think they add the refinement so much of Armada's marketing has claimed. In a matter of fact I don't call Armada a refined game at all with the game length, greater imbalance, increased complexity and restricted turn limits. It seems like they had to take so many measure to pull the reel the game in. Armada may be a more compelling game, but it lacks the simplicity that has made X-wing a more successful game.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Not everyone has a phone or wants their game to be strictly electronic.

Making it easier to constantly change the game will only make the game even more confusing when updates can happen faster than releases.

And casual players deserve the same level of attention as tournament players. . .their game should be just as good, all the time.

If a casual player doesn't have a mobile or computer, they are already missing the updates. I don't understand this line of argument.

Having an official app/web site where cards can be automatically updated will decrease confusion. Please see video games for how this works professionally.

I'm skipping 2.0, and going straight to 3.0.

For the game it is time, but not for FFG. With Legion coming out, this year will be dedicated to getting that established. A sizeable portion of Legions potential customer base is frustrated X-Wing players. An overhaul that pulls those back into the game too close to that games early waves would be detrimental. So instead, FFG will seek to get Legion established and then offer a way to reawaken dormant collections in a way that has Legion players pick it up out of curiosity. Or they will just let X-Wing die, because they're FFG.

As for the format of that eventual overhaul, I would suggest most wanted style boxes for each faction, maybe two ships and a boatload of cards, every upgrade in the game rewritten, with the old versions still legal as tokens. Along with that I wish for a repackaging change to the Runewars model where buying a single faction is viable, but FFG knows that so far they have gotten away with the current scummy tactics, so barring a crash from X-Wing (in which case it is honestly more likely they can the game rather than overhaul it), I don't see that happening.

8 hours ago, Rexler Brath said:

I don't understand the need to make a 2.0. I think a squad builder app is a separate issue from fundamentaly changing the rules of the game.

I think an app with frequent FAQs/patches is the right way to go for tournament play. It also won't effect casual players if they don't want it to.

But an app which changes RULES back and forth and simultaneously having a cardboard versions can lead to very different games played. Making it difficult to switch between the 2.

I'd like to see rather an app with a ban-list of forbidden combos (further advantage does not kill of janky B-tier in casual because some certain card is a problem at Waac tourney play and thus nerfed to the ground, making it completely unplayable for everyone). Apart from possible squad compositions with a ban app still the same games are played, with the same rules for everyone. And no need for smartbphine at home.

9 hours ago, dadocollin said:

I think the beauty of X-wing is that there are so many ships at this point and you can play them all. Yes it’s annoying to have to check the FAQ. Yes it’s hard for new players to grasp it all.

But the meta seems as balanced as it’s ever been right now. Newer ships are always going to have an advantage so people buy them no matter what version. I don’t know, the game just seems like it’s hitting it’s stride right now. Does it really need a major overhaul?

I totally agree! Only slight adjustments are needed at this point, and those are better done through FAQs and/or the release of new upgrades that brings balance to the force ;-D

Also, with the track-record of "out-of-the-box" balancing the Designers have brought to the table so far.. will X-wing 2.0 be better balanced out of the box? Even if so, what happens once you start going into wave 2-3 in 2.0....

Finally, who is to say the Designes want 100% balance at all? By shifting the balance over time such that different ships and archetypes become top-tier and top-meta, the game is keept fresh and fun for the player base (and they are buying the new hotness).

This game is GOOD!!!!

Star Trek Attack Wing has also done the same thing now. They released a new core which has four ships and there are card/token only faction specific packs which have adjusted points, wording and art.

Also, they are re-releasing all the ships again with better/alternative paint work, re-costed or re-adjusted ships/abilities and tokens.

Essentially, people that have everything already just buy the card and token pack, those that are new to the game buy the ships and are up to date with the rest of them (kinda). If you want a new Enterprise, then go for it.

Obviously they can't fix the mess they made from their Organised Play . . .

However I would welcome FFG doing the same, releasing a pack of upgrade and pilot cards as follows (obviously to maximize their profit):

Competitive Season Packs:
Original Trilogy Rebels (X, Y, A, B, YT)
Original Trilogy Imperials: (Fighter, Interceptor, Advanced, Bomber, Lambda)
The Outer Rim: (Firespray, YV, Shadowcaster, Misthunter, Aggressor and JM5k)
The Hutt Cartel: (Headhunter, Y wing, M3, Kimogila, Khiraxz)
Expanded Heroes: (YT2400, HWK, Headhunter, Arc-170)
Lothrel Rebels: (Ghost, Phantom, Phantom 2)
Thrawn's Finest: (TIE Aggressor, Defender, Phantom)
Leia's Resistance: (T70, Resistance A wing, Resistance Bomber)
The First Order: (F/O TIE, S/F, F/O Bomber, Upsilon)

If you retailed each pack at . . what . . GBP£35 each, that's GBP£315 per existing player . . that's more than enough money for FFG to make it worth it. (assuming every player buys one copy of each).

Each pack would include:
2 copies of each generic pilot and 1 copy of each unique, each with updated point costs or adjusted abilities. (Not stats though, that means new base tokens)

Updated and point adjusted upgrade cards, depending on the pack, depends on how many of what you will get.

I have to say that if they released a v2.0 of this game and expected me to pay £315+ to update all my kit, I have at least one of every ship and multiples of lots of them, then I think I would just stop buying the game. I'd keep what I have and just play that version. I've already spent a shed ton of money of this game, investing in all three factions and enjoying playing it with my friends, I just don't think I can justify to myself the expense of re-buying all the kit.

1 hour ago, UberMunchkin said:

I have to say that if they released a v2.0 of this game and expected me to pay £315+ to update all my kit, I have at least one of every ship and multiples of lots of them, then I think I would just stop buying the game. I'd keep what I have and just play that version. I've already spent a shed ton of money of this game, investing in all three factions and enjoying playing it with my friends, I just don't think I can justify to myself the expense of re-buying all the kit.

as will a lot of other players do. There is no way that a 2.0 could fix the verbal explenation of the cards in use. So redesigning is utter shite. The FAQ is the only way to go and it should remain that way.

If they were to add something to the x wing universe, i'd opt for The old republic expansion, not mixed with the current one.

the 2.0-crying-crowd just can't handle evolution and would love the reset all to a "certain" point in time where they were still able to win. The game is too complex to be perfect and a perfect game system doesn't exist. Fixing a part creates new problems later.

....the grass ain't always greener......

ps: one thing could make all go a lot faster. Namely a decent FFG moderator that would, instead of giving negative points to posting ppl, immediatly intervene in rule situations. Marking threads as "wip", lock them from flooding and when time is due, resolve the problem.

ps2: games workshop has killed some off it's major games, fantasy battles etc.., updating a version for greed (sell more models) and rule explenations. That left a huge part off the gaming population (oldhammers) with tons of lead. The only reason why updating a version happens isn't to clarify problems, it's just to make sure they boost sales.

36 minutes ago, D34d guru said:

ps2: games workshop has killed some off it's major games, fantasy battles etc.., updating a version for greed (sell more models) and rule explenations. That left a huge part off the gaming population (oldhammers) with tons of lead. The only reason why updating a version happens isn't to clarify problems, it's just to make sure they boost sales.

And yet, 3rd edition Blood Bowl and its developments up to and including the 2016 rerelease is vastly superior to 2nd and 1st. Likewise 8th edition 40k has made that game dominant. Good redesigns happen, and X-Wing is due for one, with a mindset appropriate to the scale the game grew to. X-Wing was never expected to go beyond its second, maybe third wave, and it shows badly with how little thought was given to making things future-proof. Early wave ships have massive design issues (the most exciting rebel ship moves literaly like a brick), while upgrades like PTL and VI plague the game to this day because they are just that good. Meanwhile there is a whole slew of upgrades that will never have a chance to see play, ever. A massive waste of paper.

43 minutes ago, D34d guru said:

the 2.0-crying-crowd just can't handle evolution and would love the reset all to a "certain" point in time where they were still able to win.

Now that is just plain wrong. One of the strongest proponents of a major rebalancing is Major Juggler, who is perfectly capable of winning games. Many people from the podcast crowd support his efforts, too. These people can win games and place well at tournaments - it is just that they'd rather also have fun doing it. That is, of course, hyperbolic, as the game is still lots of fun. However you'd need to be blind to see that this Star Wars game could be a lot better and more fun by allowing more, less opressive options that represent the fluff better, or at least don't punish you for wanting to play ships that actually are from the movies.

Now, for me personally my favourite ship is the B-Wing. The B-Wing is bad, though. Can I make it work? Sure, kind of. Can I win games? Easily. But will I have fun entering a tournament with them? After a thrashing second game maybe if I made it to the bottom tables. But honestly, that second game I could do without, I'd rather have it like the good old days™, where every game was fun. So I have to play a list that's capable to compete at the very top and that means no B-Wings for me. Sadness.

13 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

And yet, 3rd edition Blood Bowl and its developments up to and including the 2016 rerelease is vastly superior to 2nd and 1st. Likewise 8th edition 40k has made that game dominant. Good redesigns happen, and X-Wing is due for one, with a mindset appropriate to the scale the game grew to. X-Wing was never expected to go beyond its second, maybe third wave, and it shows badly with how little thought was given to making things future-proof. Early wave ships have massive design issues (the most exciting rebel ship moves literaly like a brick), while upgrades like PTL and VI plague the game to this day because they are just that good. Meanwhile there is a whole slew of upgrades that will never have a chance to see play, ever. A massive waste of paper.

Bloodbowl teams concist of 13-14 models? Baught in a pack after puchasing starter set?

40k/30k.... another update..; another investment in models.... 5+ models/ squad extra.... and some new additions that already started new problems....

FFG will give us an updated rulebook, as per last one, since there is no other way off changing the main rules as they do now.

The more variables you add to a game , the more the older things become "really old". Trying to breathe some new life into the oldies can be done.... with more expansions.

As for your b-wing story, well, i bow to thee, you play b-wings, you can win, you have fun. That is the main purpose of the game. You want to enter a competitive scene, compare it to a tennis player having fun on a court going to Wimbledon".