2 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

my personal experience begs to differ with your statement, while yes i have read the core books and a few source books this only gives a basic framework a start point, for a intuitive understanding, which is what i am aiming for, the best way i have found is start with a shotgun and work up to a sniper rifle.

if people require a half page explanation on every idea submitted then our two modes of thought are too dissimilar to understand each other, i don't read half the fluff on any given post i look for the feel of the idea and try to understand that.

I didn't say you have to write a half page explaining your items. I said you need to be able to. If you can't, you don't know enough, and you haven't thought enough, about how and whether your idea fits in the game. Listen to the Order 66 podcast when Sam Stewart is on. When he is asked about their design decisions, it is clear they try hard to make new additions balanced with existing materials, and they look to the Star Wars universe for inspiration. He never says "Our intuition thought this was neat".

Consider your most recent offering. Once you conceived of it, you should have then considered if and how it interacts with, compares to, and supersedes other things already in the game. In this case, you are committing a FD to get 1 success and 2 advantage (after mods). A whole bunch of things should jump out at you immediately. I'll just talk about this. A Force 4 character using this with the lightsaber skill is getting 4 successes and 8 advantage on every attempted hit. That is a little better than Draw Closer and Hawkbat Swoop COMBINED. Almost every attempt will be a hit, with a good deal of damage, auto-crits, strain removal, and other qualities triggering. There are a ton of places in this game where auto successes and advantages are crazy powerful.

And this is not about "following the rules". New items, talents, etc always add to the rules. It is about understanding the mechanics of the game. It is about understanding the existing materials.

We are complex beings. Just because you prefer to go with your gut feelings doesn't mean you have to to the exclusion of rigorous thinking. I suspect most of us here are drawn to this sort of narrative roleplaying, at least in part, because we enjoy the creative aspects of it. We like the story telling, creating personalities for our characters, and world building. I prefer to let my characters grow organically, according to the events they "live" through. My most recent character only bought a lightsaber spec because he felt that it was the will of the force when he received a "lightsaber". I used quotes around "lightsaber" because this thing was a new item my GM created. It is an archaic, dark-sided technology. It takes a maneuver to ignite, and requires a force roll, with the wielder calling on the dark side (using a dark pip, taking strain, and flipping a Destiny Point). This item breaks the rules of the game, in a way. It even expands the universe. Using it is sub-optimal. VERY sub-optimal. But it, and my character's reaction to it, are creative. He hopes he can redeem it. He thinks he is supposed to redeem it. There is a good place for intuition. It makes the game fun. (In the two sessions since he got this thing, his morality has triggered twice, and despite taking a good deal of conflict, his morality is surging upwards. So he knows he is doing the right thing).

Take the time. Do the work. It is disrespectful to everyone here to just thoughtlessly drop ideas here, expect us to fix them for you, and then ignore what we say anyway.

6 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

I didn't say you have to write a half page explaining your items. I said you need to be able to. If you can't, you don't know enough, and you haven't thought enough, about how and whether your idea fits in the game. Listen to the Order 66 podcast when Sam Stewart is on. When he is asked about their design decisions, it is clear they try hard to make new additions balanced with existing materials, and they look to the Star Wars universe for inspiration. He never says "Our intuition thought this was neat".

Consider your most recent offering. Once you conceived of it, you should have then considered if and how it interacts with, compares to, and supersedes other things already in the game. In this case, you are committing a FD to get 1 success and 2 advantage (after mods). A whole bunch of things should jump out at you immediately. I'll just talk about this. A Force 4 character using this with the lightsaber skill is getting 4 successes and 8 advantage on every attempted hit. That is a little better than Draw Closer and Hawkbat Swoop COMBINED. Almost every attempt will be a hit, with a good deal of damage, auto-crits, strain removal, and other qualities triggering. There are a ton of places in this game where auto successes and advantages are crazy powerful.

And this is not about "following the rules". New items, talents, etc always add to the rules. It is about understanding the mechanics of the game. It is about understanding the existing materials.

We are complex beings. Just because you prefer to go with your gut feelings doesn't mean you have to to the exclusion of rigorous thinking. I suspect most of us here are drawn to this sort of narrative roleplaying, at least in part, because we enjoy the creative aspects of it. We like the story telling, creating personalities for our characters, and world building. I prefer to let my characters grow organically, according to the events they "live" through. My most recent character only bought a lightsaber spec because he felt that it was the will of the force when he received a "lightsaber". I used quotes around "lightsaber" because this thing was a new item my GM created. It is an archaic, dark-sided technology. It takes a maneuver to ignite, and requires a force roll, with the wielder calling on the dark side (using a dark pip, taking strain, and flipping a Destiny Point). This item breaks the rules of the game, in a way. It even expands the universe. Using it is sub-optimal. VERY sub-optimal. But it, and my character's reaction to it are creative. My character hopes he can redeem it. He thinks he is supposed to redeem it. There is a good place for intuition. It makes the game fun. (In the two sessions since he got this thing, his morality has triggered twice, and despite taking a good deal of conflict, his morality is surging upwards. So he knows he is doing the right thing).

Take the time. Do the work. It is disrespectful to everyone here to just thoughtlessly drop ideas here, expect us to fix them for you, and then ignore what we say anyway.

i understand that there are a lot of subtle elements of the game that have to be considered with all aspects of design and that many of those subtleties i am currently unaware of, this game is montorsly huge and detailed to the last.

as for the "overuse" problem:

any threats generated can spent on anything form

take conflict with every use of the item

GM decides the skill

flip destiny per use

convert X LS to DS

You just ignored everything I said. I'm done.

1 hour ago, Stormbourne said:

i understand that there are a lot of subtle elements of the game that have to be considered with all aspects of design and that many of those subtleties i am currently unaware of, this game is montorsly huge and detailed to the last.

as for the "overuse" problem:

Price	Restricted	Rarity	Required HP	Special	Base effect	Mods
19,000	Yes	9	3	When installing make a hard astrogation check if success full choose one skill	Commit C : add success to chosen skill (cannot activate multiple times)	2 “add advantage to combined force power checks” mods

any threats generated can spent on anything form

take conflict with every use of the item

GM decides the skill

flip destiny per use

convert X LS to DS

I'm going to intervene again because I don't think you took my post last time to heart. You took an item that would have been pretty great in game. a 3 HP attachment that gives one white and one black pip once per session AND requires strain and conflict to use is a wonderful item for a force wizard and as a fellow force wizard player I would love to have an item like that. That is basically a nerfed version of the Acetic's power without needing to be an Acetic and combined with an Acetic, it means he could supe up his force abilities to the max once per session for those epic storytelling moments where he is levitating and hurling starships in the epic final battle. Without mods that item is perfectly fine and quite powerful, you could say even relic levels and should be as hard to obtain as a kyber crystal but definitely a way to give the force users a nice reward.

However instead you took this and instead over complicated the item again and listened to your gut every time you got feedback rather than thinking about what they were actually trying to say about the item. Rather than address the problems you just add some really complicated downsides that really don't make the item simpler to use but instead make the item hard to run in game. I know you are frustrated, i know you want to make items that people will love. I know it feels fun to be powerful. It feels great to be powerful, but it isn't meaningful to be powerful at least not without hard work and character development. Now your item is utterly broken again because of how it works. Adding 1 or 2 free advantage isn't broken, adding 1 success is powerful but still ok. adding success per force die committed now we are beginning to tread into the territory and step on the toes of some of the most powerful branches of the force power trees. Why would I take a force power tree when I have this item to modify my skills? I wouldn't I would just take this item and be a god with a lightsaber even though I didn't take a lightsaber spec and didn't take battle meditation, ebb/flow, or even enhance. I just generate that many successes and advantages.

Start small and keep it simple. THINK long and hard when you are making items. Think about details of the items and what you want them to do and why. What niche or purpose are you filling? You are still making low effort "idea guy" posts. I want to see better items. Go look back at my post on your previous thread and read closely about the point i'm trying to make to you. I want to help you become a better creator. I want to help you understand this system better. I want to see items i could suggest to my GM and have an interesting story moment with them. The items you propose are very powerful, but rather than refine them and tweak them slightly you go off in a different direction when you feel that your ideas are not going to turn out the way you intend. I'm going to tell you from experience with design rarely does anything you start out with make it into the final iteration. Its all about tweaking and refining ideas to fit within a cohesive framework and theme. You are all over the place you generate so many different ideas and don't spend enough time thinking and refining how to make your ideas better or how they could be reworked. Instead you bounce off the walls with trial and error. That is not how the best games are made. The best are made by thinking carefully and making careful considerations and understanding how the game works enough to where you can add things to the game without ruining all of the other hard work that has gone into making it. I'm not telling you how to play your game. If you and your GM love these items go ahead and use them, i can guess that the narrative tension will largely be lost with this but perhaps you are looking for a kick in the door and murderhobo style of star wars, nothing wrong with that but that is not the game everyone else is playing.

Everyone in the forums is getting really frustrated and they feel like you are wasting their time. They want to be helpful and they are trying to be helpful but not listening and heeding our friend's posts is quite disrespectful. I don't think you mean to be. I think you just want to play the game you want to play and that is fine, but realize that the game you want to play seems very different than the game we are all playing. These items are being crafted by a power gamer and a min-maxer not a storyteller. Storytelling and power gaming have very different goals.

Please take all of these posts to heart we want to help you love this game. We all love it too, but please don't waste our time if you aren't going to listen to what we are saying. Changing your idea on a dime when we suggest ways to make it more reasonable is not a way to show us you are listening. The first iteration of the item was really good, i liked it, it just needed refining and toning back. Read our posts and at the very least listen. You don't have to agree with us but please at least listen. One question is are you averse to situational items that you don't get to use often? The point of items in this game of star wars is to have a very focused purpose and improve something your character does, not define the power of your character. The BEST tools you can get by crafting only give an upgrade instead of a blue. That is the best you can get with a tool. Consider how low impact that is. If your character isn't already good at a skill then that single upgrade isn't going to to much but for a character who is good that could mean the difference between one additional triumph or getting to roll that 1 extra green he needs to beat the odds. That is how narrative storytelling works. Please listen to us we are trying to help.

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

a good metric to use is "why would i not get this?" All of you items fit the there is no reason not to get them. which is a sure sign they are extremely over powered.

2 hours ago, Earl of Madness said:

I'm going to intervene again because I don't think you took my post last time to heart. You took an item that would have been pretty great in game. a 3 HP attachment that gives one white and one black pip once per session AND requires strain and conflict to use is a wonderful item for a force wizard and as a fellow force wizard player I would love to have an item like that. That is basically a nerfed version of the Acetic's power without needing to be an Acetic and combined with an Acetic, it means he could supe up his force abilities to the max once per session for those epic storytelling moments where he is levitating and hurling starships in the epic final battle. Without mods that item is perfectly fine and quite powerful, you could say even relic levels and should be as hard to obtain as a kyber crystal but definitely a way to give the force users a nice reward.

However instead you took this and instead over complicated the item again and listened to your gut every time you got feedback rather than thinking about what they were actually trying to say about the item. Rather than address the problems you just add some really complicated downsides that really don't make the item simpler to use but instead make the item hard to run in game. I know you are frustrated, i know you want to make items that people will love. I know it feels fun to be powerful. It feels great to be powerful, but it isn't meaningful to be powerful at least not without hard work and character development. Now your item is utterly broken again because of how it works. Adding 1 or 2 free advantage isn't broken, adding 1 success is powerful but still ok. adding success per force die committed now we are beginning to tread into the territory and step on the toes of some of the most powerful branches of the force power trees. Why would I take a force power tree when I have this item to modify my skills? I wouldn't I would just take this item and be a god with a lightsaber even though I didn't take a lightsaber spec and didn't take battle meditation, ebb/flow, or even enhance. I just generate that many successes and advantages.

Start small and keep it simple. THINK long and hard when you are making items. Think about details of the items and what you want them to do and why. What niche or purpose are you filling? You are still making low effort "idea guy" posts. I want to see better items. Go look back at my post on your previous thread and read closely about the point i'm trying to make to you. I want to help you become a better creator. I want to help you understand this system better. I want to see items i could suggest to my GM and have an interesting story moment with them. The items you propose are very powerful, but rather than refine them and tweak them slightly you go off in a different direction when you feel that your ideas are not going to turn out the way you intend. I'm going to tell you from experience with design rarely does anything you start out with make it into the final iteration. Its all about tweaking and refining ideas to fit within a cohesive framework and theme. You are all over the place you generate so many different ideas and don't spend enough time thinking and refining how to make your ideas better or how they could be reworked. Instead you bounce off the walls with trial and error. That is not how the best games are made. The best are made by thinking carefully and making careful considerations and understanding how the game works enough to where you can add things to the game without ruining all of the other hard work that has gone into making it. I'm not telling you how to play your game. If you and your GM love these items go ahead and use them, i can guess that the narrative tension will largely be lost with this but perhaps you are looking for a kick in the door and murderhobo style of star wars, nothing wrong with that but that is not the game everyone else is playing.

Everyone in the forums is getting really frustrated and they feel like you are wasting their time. They want to be helpful and they are trying to be helpful but not listening and heeding our friend's posts is quite disrespectful. I don't think you mean to be. I think you just want to play the game you want to play and that is fine, but realize that the game you want to play seems very different than the game we are all playing. These items are being crafted by a power gamer and a min-maxer not a storyteller. Storytelling and power gaming have very different goals.

Please take all of these posts to heart we want to help you love this game. We all love it too, but please don't waste our time if you aren't going to listen to what we are saying. Changing your idea on a dime when we suggest ways to make it more reasonable is not a way to show us you are listening. The first iteration of the item was really good, i liked it, it just needed refining and toning back. Read our posts and at the very least listen. You don't have to agree with us but please at least listen. One question is are you averse to situational items that you don't get to use often? The point of items in this game of star wars is to have a very focused purpose and improve something your character does, not define the power of your character. The BEST tools you can get by crafting only give an upgrade instead of a blue. That is the best you can get with a tool. Consider how low impact that is. If your character isn't already good at a skill then that single upgrade isn't going to to much but for a character who is good that could mean the difference between one additional triumph or getting to roll that 1 extra green he needs to beat the odds. That is how narrative storytelling works. Please listen to us we are trying to help.

these two comment are probably the best responses i have got

and if you want simple and balanced with a negative i have two ideas then:

suffer 3 strain: add LS and DS to next force roll

or

flip destiny: re-roll one force dice

My best advise would be to play the game as is for a while before trying to create stuff. I don't think you understand the system well enough to get the balance right. Also your whole premise seems to be there are not enough force dice. Which is just not true. The force is already VERY powerful as is. If you invest wisely. Play the game AS is for a while. You will see.

15 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

My best advise would be to play the game as is for a while before trying to create stuff. I don't think you understand the system well enough to get the balance right. Also your whole premise seems to be there are not enough force dice. Which is just not true. The force is already VERY powerful as is. If you invest wisely. Play the game AS is for a while. You will see.

my problem isn't with "more force" it's that there are no items outside of super rare relics, that i know of, can help high power force users like the consular and mystic. if you have examples i am more than happy to hear them

9 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

my problem isn't with "more force" it's that there are no items outside of super rare relics, that i know of, can help high power force users like the consular and mystic. if you have examples i am more than happy to hear them

Thats because high power users don' need any items to be better. High power users are high xp users and played by experienced gamers who know the game / system and play it well.

49 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

these two comment are probably the best responses i have got

and if you want simple and balanced with a negative i have two ideas then:

suffer 3 strain: add LS and DS to next force roll

or

flip destiny: re-roll one force dice

1st, no they aren't. You have had many great responses that you just didn't listen to.

2nd, either of those ideas are not bad, but I would add conflict to both ideas to help balance them more... oh and once per session... per encounter would probably be a little over powered.

19 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

my problem isn't with "more force" it's that there are no items outside of super rare relics, that i know of, can help high power force users like the consular and mystic. if you have examples i am more than happy to hear them

Because they don't need it and that is a D&D mentality and not star wars. this is not a game about your stuff. this is a game about your characters. Trust us play it as is. You will see what we are talking about. A force user with a bit of investment can toss a silhuette 4 freighter with 1 force die and 2 pips. or with a little time and a willingness to accept some conflict can do it everytime with 2 force die. They don't need what you describe. Which likely a large part of the reason why your items are not well received. you are trying to fix a non existant problem based on a flawed understanding of the system and genre.

You need to reset your expectations. Star Wars has never been about stuff. Especially with force users.

4 hours ago, Daeglan said:

My best advise would be to play the game as is for a while before trying to create stuff. I don't think you understand the system well enough to get the balance right. Also your whole premise seems to be there are not enough force dice. Which is just not true. The force is already VERY powerful as is. If you invest wisely. Play the game AS is for a while. You will see.

Rule Number One that any good gamer who wants to create homebrew content is as follows:

PLAY THE GAME AS IT IS WRITTEN FOR SEVERAL SESSIONS BEFORE YOU START MODIFYING IT!

Reason for this is that in many instances, things that "look" broken or unworkable on paper actually work quite well when put into actual play. I've seen a lot of folks kavitch in the early days of this system (EotE Beta) that it needed house-ruling out the wazoo, but many of those folks changed their tune once they sat their butts down and actually played the system rules-as-written.

Second, it gives you a better perspective and handle on how the system works at it's core, and helps prevent game-breaking changes that introduction of house rules may well create. Every item that the OP has made has been in one form or another a game-breaker, designed with the sole purpose of "how can I make my PC uber-powerful" to the point they feel more like something you'd see in the possession of an archmage in a high fantasy RPG such as D&D or Pathfinder instead of something you'd find in Star Wars, where setting-wise the Force is less of a codified magic system and is more of an unknown energy that even the Jedi (who were the setting's primary experts on the Force) still didn't fully understand and could be surprised be.

Of course, given his track record, I doubt any suggestions made by any members of the community will fall on deaf ears.

5 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

my problem isn't with "more force" it's that there are no items outside of super rare relics, that i know of, can help high power force users like the consular and mystic. if you have examples i am more than happy to hear them

Counter: find these items in Star Wars lore, point them out here, and see what the group of experienced players and GMs would do to stat them out.

Seriously, everything you have tried to add to this game does not fit the lore. Find something in the lore that we can all use as a baseline and we can talk. The reason that they are not in the game is that they are mostly not anywhere in the setting.

Forget the rules crunch, find the magic Star Wars robe that makes an already powerful force user even better at using the force. Do that, and we can talk.

7 hours ago, Stormbourne said:

my problem isn't with "more force" it's that there are no items outside of super rare relics, that i know of, can help high power force users like the consular and mystic. if you have examples i am more than happy to hear them

Here are some items that can help high power force users.

Medkit, Toolkit, Slicer gear, climbing gear, blaster pistol, blaster rifle, filter mask, wilderness survival pack, CR-90 Corvette, ration pack, stimpak, lightsaber, armored robes, shadowsuit. I can list more if it helps.

@Stormbourne so i have to ask... what do you think the purpose is behind the conflict system? How do you think it works? What's the purpose behind the force die? How do you think they work with the conflict system? What do you think the purpose of the number of DS pips vs LS pips might be?

Before you try changing or modifying that you should really understand it.

10 hours ago, jayc007 said:

@Stormbourne so i have to ask... what do you think the purpose is behind the conflict system? How do you think it works? What's the purpose behind the force die? How do you think they work with the conflict system? What do you think the purpose of the number of DS pips vs LS pips might be?

Before you try changing or modifying that you should really understand it.

The force as i understand it is currently designed to innately pull everyone to the light via the conflict dice mechanic. The number and positioning of the force pips on the dice are done in a way that says that neither is more powerful but one is more available at any given time, this gives the dark side a minor edge on the dice, while the morality system is there as a reward system to benefit people that make the moral journey to becoming paragons of either side, here the light side has a minor edge of the dark side in that doesn't take anything away in the process of bestowing said boons.

My major sticking point with the force right now is that it is a psychological system that ignores one of the most powerful psychological effects, in that no one sees themselves as the bad guy in someone else's story, yes many people will say that they have done bad things but they never see themselves as a villain. There needs to be a greater imbalance in the force, specifically the dark side on the dice, to effectively counter this psychological phenomenon because the two times my party has used the darkside, myself included, are both in do or die situations, which in and of itself is powerful enough to warrant the use of darkside, but this is not enough to actually tempt anyone from the light, from grace, the darkside was supposed to be a all alluring force capable of tempting all but the most well trained jedi, and even then they needed to be constantly vigilant.

Now if a change where to happen to the force dice there would also need to be a somewhat equal change to the pargaon perks, specifically the light side ones, as they have become harder to reach with the reinforced allure of the darkside, for those of you who have seen my force and destiny house rules this is what i was aiming for to make an effective counter against this psychological effect that is, in my opinion making the force rather boring, as no one is tempted to use the force in all but the most extreme of situations, when the effect fails due to some other reason

ummm how one views themselves is irrelevant to the force. It does not care. So no there does not need to have a greater imbalance. In order to fall to the darkside you have to actually commit darkside acts. You seem to have ignored the other source of conflict. namely actions. There is a whole table of examples. like knowing inaction. something that if the gm is doing things right should be hitting players with situations where acting against bad actors is extremely undesireable. This is another example that shows you are not very familiar with the rules.

53 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

ummm how one views themselves is irrelevant to the force. It does not care. So no there does not need to have a greater imbalance. In order to fall to the darkside you have to actually commit darkside acts. You seem to have ignored the other source of conflict. namely actions. There is a whole table of examples. like knowing inaction. something that if the gm is doing things right should be hitting players with situations where acting against bad actors is extremely undesireable. This is another example that shows you are not very familiar with the rules.

warning i am going to sound like an ******* in two seconds

go back and watch the movies, and the clone wars mortis arch again

every aspect of the force is mystic and psychological in nature, and as confirmed by Lucas himself, was inspired by eastern mythos, specifically Buddhism's chi so lets see the parallels; chi is a energy that permeates the universe, and is a quality of all things, much like the force, to have proper flow of this energy through the body one must be at peace with themselves and the universe, again 1:1, and then there is also the chakras that while the force didn't copy 100% can still be felt in the design of it and it's users, these chakras are like lenses and represent how chi can be applied in sense, and there applications are: anger, desire, greed, absence, appreciation, self-control, and peace, and funnily enough this can be chopped in two places that make the motivations of both light and dark to become very clear the first is in-between greed and absence this is a boundary between light and dark and the second is between self-control and peace, with peace having the most power and what many of the darkside and lightside long for immortality (spiritual immortality). and the thing is to get to peace many many things have to change, one notable thing is the merging of id and ego and destruction of self serving behaviors like "i am a good person" which it is (it's a defense for our psyche against the bad things we have done), and except everything the good and the bad as a single inseparable package like; the father

so yes how you perceive yourself is very relevant to the force

2 minutes ago, Stormbourne said:

warning i am going to sound like an ******* in two seconds

go back and watch the movies, and the clone wars mortis arch again

every aspect of the force is mystic and psychological in nature, and as confirmed by Lucas himself, was inspired by eastern mythos, specifically Buddhism's chi so lets see the parallels; chi is a energy that permeates the universe, and is a quality of all things, much like the force, to have proper flow of this energy through the body one must be at peace with themselves and the universe, again 1:1, and then there is also the chakras that while the force didn't copy 100% can still be felt in the design of it and it's users, these chakras are like lenses and represent how chi can be applied in sense, and there applications are: anger, desire, greed, absence, appreciation, self-control, and peace, and funnily enough this can be chopped in two places that make the motivations of both light and dark to become very clear the first is in-between greed and absence this is a boundary between light and dark and the second is between self-control and peace, with peace having the most power and what many of the darkside and lightside long for immortality (spiritual immortality). and the thing is to get to peace many many things have to change, one notable thing is the merging of id and ego and destruction of self serving behaviors like "i am a good person" which it is (it's a defense for our psyche against the bad things we have done), and except everything the good and the bad as a single inseparable package like; the father

so yes how you perceive yourself is very relevant to the force

No it is not. And I have watched them. And none of that stuff about chakras is relevant. Those who fell to the darkside did evil acts. Why they did those evil acts were irrelevant. The acts mattered.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

No it is not. And I have watched them. And none of that stuff about chakras is relevant. Those who fell to the darkside did evil acts. Why they did those evil acts were irrelevant. The acts mattered.

yes the acts of of a person do matter but they are no be all and end all. no one becomes a bad person with the flip of a switch, you can never point to a single event and say that's where it all changed, it is continuous small acts that are more important and it's how they impacted others and how the person lives if those acts that are the most important, there can be moments when people snap and do bad things (Luke v Vader) but this does not mean they are bad people for that one act, my character has join the empire's inquisitors but is still lightside, what you are saying is that this one act should make me darkside when it has not, the initial decision did knock me out of paragon but now i am make lost ground through the way i am handling the situation not the situation it's self

Correct. And that is how this system works. You have to continuously commit darkside actions over time. You have to do lots of actions that give you conflict. do this enough and your morality will slide to the darkside. no one act will do it. murdering someone costs you 10 or more conflict. but that is not going to drop you to the darkside. And because of the die roll you can't really game the system. S if yo keep doing dark actions you will fall. And how you feel about those actions or how you justify them does not matter. The acts anakin did caused him to fall. Not how he justified them.

21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Correct. And that is how this system works. You have to continuously commit darkside actions over time. You have to do lots of actions that give you conflict. do this enough and your morality will slide to the darkside. no one act will do it. murdering someone costs you 10 or more conflict. but that is not going to drop you to the darkside. And because of the die roll you can't really game the system. S if yo keep doing dark actions you will fall. And how you feel about those actions or how you justify them does not matter. The acts anakin did caused him to fall. Not how he justified them.

the acts are the only thing we can imperialistically measure but it is the philological aspect that is more important, is the Silver Surfer a bad person because of the acts he has committed? or is Reed Richard's Utopian ideals worse?

Which makes the psychological aspects completely irrelevant. Because 1. you aren't your character so there is absolutely no way to really say anything about the psychological aspects. 2. the fact is people tend to be the heroes of their own stories and the fact they justify their horrible actions does not change their horrible actions. So drop the psychological argument because it is completely useless for this game.

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which makes the psychological aspects completely irrelevant. Because 1. you aren't your character so there is absolutely no way to really say anything about the psychological aspects. 2. the fact is people tend to be the heroes of their own stories and the fact they justify their horrible actions does not change their horrible actions. So drop the psychological argument because it is completely useless for this game.

i is completely relevant of F&D because 1. our characters are us, or at least aspects of us. 2. i am not underplaying the actions of people but putting more emphasis on their reactions both external (their actions) and internal (their justifications)

But you can only measure actions. You CANT measure their justifications. A good excuse does not make evil actions ok. And really do you want to question every action a player makes to find their justification? Does psychoanylizing the character actually sound fun to you? I do not see anyway to actually do anything useful with justifications that is going to be anything other than bogging down the game with psychoanalyzing the players characters actions.

Just now, Daeglan said:

But you can only measure actions. You CANT measure their justifications. A good excuse does not make evil actions ok. And really do you want to question every action a player makes to find their justification? Does psychoanalyzing the character actually sound fun to you? I do not see anyway to actually do anything useful with justifications that is going to be anything other than bogging down the game with psychoanalyzing the players characters actions.

if you can do it passively it adds loads to the game, and yes it does help me do this that my uncle, who also plays, is a psychologist, as many aspects of psychology work best when undetected