As I and others have said numerous times, make ‘Outmanoeuvre’ a standard rule for PW. Suddenly flying becomes that much more important and primaries become more dangerous; particularly against the low AGI turret/ordnance carriers that we see so much of.
Why do Secondary Weapons rule this game?
Most ships that run a secondary weapon, have a low primary value. TLT is the best example of this. Almost all the ships it goes on have 1 or 2 primary red dice. Hwk, Y-wing, K-Wing. Nym and the Ghost use those to control the board. Fly in close to negate TLT get hit with bombs from Nym or 5 dice from a ghost. 2 damage doesn't seem so bad at that point. Heck even Dash with title and HLC upps the attack of a ship once again from 2 to 4.
Harpoons once again increase a base attack of 2 dice on a ship that can have a high chance of using it over and over again because of reload. People might not like them, but a single shot harpoon missile isnt the worst thing to deal with, its when the potential for 6 or even more of them lead to games being not fun. (Note I flew 3 Rho and Jonus at chicago regionals and won a game by slamming around the board, reloading shooting the harpoon and then repeating the process). Just like with jumps and plasmas you took a ship that had a primary attack of 2 and upped its power level.
Bombs have grown in strength cause well they still require a lot more work to be successful a lot of the times, so things like bomblet generator lead to a control of the board to some extent. And paired with something like TLT can make for a difficult choice. Fly in close get hit with bombs or stay at range 3 and get plinked to death by TLT.
This doesnt impact bombs, but easiest way to make secondary weapons not seem overpowered is getting the range bonus at range 3 against the secondary weapons. The ships that fly with them, are already getting a bonus red die/dice from what their ship could normally do. Will be interesting to see what ffg does after championship season ends in May. I don't think you will see a drastic change to secondary weapons and how they defended, but if the meta is or stays warped by just a handful of archtypes of ships and pilots, they will have to do something. Otherwise game play is going to become very boring overall.
6 hours ago, Sithborg said:This is what happens when people demand better and better missiles, torpedoes, and bombs.
BINGO!
3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:a release schedule so slow that everyone quits out of boredom.
Personally I’d prefer a slower release schedule if it ended the rollercoaster of balance we have now. Every release seems to bring some new monster that takes over the meta. This is unhealthy and could be avoided by more thorough testing and leaving more time between releases so the long term meta impact can be measured. It seems to serve Armada well to have “only” 1-2 releases per year and it’d mean I would find room for that third Star Wars game.
I am still fine with the roller coaster, but it definitely becomes annoying for a lot of people who don't want to rethink their list every 2 weeks. ;-)
It seems like the game is gone too far to go back on the core mechanics now. Any adjustments will most likely be done through upgrade cards, that we spend money on for the fix.
13 minutes ago, Cloaker said:It seems like the game is gone too far to go back on the core mechanics now.
Personally, I wouldn't want to go back to the beginning.
Missiles and torpedoes finally work.
You would lose Boost, T-Rolls, S-Loops.
You would lose Tractor Beams, Coordinate, Jam, Bullseyes.
You can play 3 factions and 2 more-or-less working subfactions.
It's a better game now than ever before, with lots of complexity that gets lost in the efforts to create "the perfect death-list" for tournament play.
5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:Personally, I wouldn't want to go back to the beginning.
Missiles and torpedoes finally work.
You would lose Boost, T-Rolls, S-Loops.
You would lose Tractor Beams, Coordinate, Jam, Bullseyes.
You can play 3 factions and 2 more-or-less working subfactions.
It's a better game now than ever before, with lots of complexity that gets lost in the efforts to create "the perfect death-list" for tournament play.
I know. I guess I can see that. But yeah, primaries still seem to have gotten lost. I'll never play epic again either with harpoons as currently designed. Just perplexed how it got so deep in the secondary muck.
These forums just love to grab onto something as OP and needing to be fixed. no matter what something would be complained about here as being overpowered.
5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:Personally, I wouldn't want to go back to the beginning.
Missiles and torpedoes finally work.
You would lose Boost, T-Rolls, S-Loops.
You would lose Tractor Beams, Coordinate, Jam, Bullseyes.
You can play 3 factions and 2 more-or-less working subfactions.
It's a better game now than ever before, with lots of complexity that gets lost in the efforts to create "the perfect death-list" for tournament play.
This is pretty much how I feel except I do think even the tournament scene is fairly wide open at least here locally.
13 minutes ago, Cloaker said:I know. I guess I can see that. But yeah, primaries still seem to have gotten lost. I'll never play epic again either with harpoons as currently designed. Just perplexed how it got so deep in the secondary muck.
It will change. It always does.
I lament that the Squint just won't survive in Epic. But I have learned to love the TAP and TIE/sf. And I guess I could also fly the TIE Silencer "Super Squint" more.
And I don't play Harpoons cuz they just seem so dang fussy. I don't want to keep track of effect tokens; I just want BOOM and ZOOM.
12 minutes ago, Icelom said:These forums just love to grab onto something as OP and needing to be fixed. no matter what something would be complained about here as being overpowered.
This is pretty much how I feel except I do think even the tournament scene is fairly wide open at least here locally.
The point I meant to make was that in a list of missile/turret/cannon options, tournament players are only going to take what is perceived as most powerful. It's the same with the chassis; no one flies the YT-2400; they fly Dash.
It seems that even a generic QuadJumper was spotted at tourney this season; the game is a lot healthier than people give it credit for.
Edited by Darth MeanieAnother thread that the OP misses ever so slightly the reeeeeeaaaal issue: TLT.
On 2/11/2018 at 5:52 PM, GreenDragoon said:anything that's better than a 12pt TIE is OP and should be nerfed... /s
Yes! We finally have something we agree on. Academy Pilot for the win! Nerf it all and the Imperials will take there rightful place at the upper echelon of X-Wing.
Plus, Let's add a modification that decreases it's value by 2 so I can run 10 of those babies.
Yes, I am an Imperial fanboy.
No, I feel no shame in this.
" The dark side is strong in me, for I am Sith. "
Edited by Darth NadirWhen you try to balance a game via upgrade cards, don't be too shocked when it becomes dominated by upgrade cards...
Secondary weapons are upgrade cards.
?
3 hours ago, Reiver said:When you try to balance a game via upgrade cards, don't be too shocked when it becomes dominated by upgrade cards...
Secondary weapons are upgrade cards.
?
Well, ideally, you balance the game with upgrade cards so a ship can be viable in multiple configurations.
Hence, one chassis can function in multiple versions via various upgrades, thereby creating additional diversity above and beyond releasing new ships.
Ya know, like, theoretically. . .
Edited by Darth MeanieDepends on which secondary weapons you are talking about
- Cannons and Turrets have been a staple since they can deny range 3 agility bonus.
- Torpedoes and Missiles need a very specific build that they are practically useless on anything save for a select few ships. And said select few ships are already good enough without them.
- Bombs are not secondary weapons per definition. So they don't count in this discussion anymore than Captian Oicun ramming ability.
On 2/11/2018 at 11:22 AM, Darth Meanie said:This is a good idea.
Secondaries should be weapons that are inferior but allow you to do something special--like fire out of arc.
Failing that, I like your idea.
That's what they started out as. In the early waves Cannons and Turrets were used to inflict conditions on the defender (like ion) or they worked very differently than normal weapons (like autoblaster cannon). The exceptions to this were Heavy Laser Cannon, which was prohibitively expensive and didn't start becoming top tier until wave 5 (Dash Rendar), and blaster turret which had prohibitive action efficiency downsides (essentially relegating it to focus battery HWKs). It made sense back then to have them ignore range 3 bonuses since they represented a fundamentally different weapon than the normal blasters.
To address what the OP is asking I would say that in most games outside of Heavy Laser Cannon gunboats or TLT based lists primaries still make up the majority of attacks. Alpha strike lists have their big opening damage spike but then mostly rely on primaries with the occasional list able to fire off another odd missile or two (scavenger crane vaksai or reloading gunboats come to mind).
It's also important to remember that up until wave 7-8 most of the game's secondary weapons were pretty unplayable competitively. When extra munitions and guidance chips came out it basically added dozens of 'new' cards back into the meta. I'm in favor a wide array of diverse weapon options. But at this point the cannon and turret slots have expanded to the point of really needing to not ignore range 3 bonuses anymore to keep them consistent with the other laser weapons. Harpoons should be dialed back just a bit (but not too much) to make other ordnance options viable. If you applied the range 3 agility bonus to ALL attacks it would give a slight boost to non-alpha strike lists which would be nice.
6 hours ago, Marinealver said:Depends on which secondary weapons you are talking about
- Bombs are not secondary weapons per definition. So they don't count in this discussion anymore than Captian Oicun ramming ability.
But you get what I mean. There is a lot more grief over infinite bombs, (which can hit in a round where you still get to attack which is just silly when you think about it thematically.) It's just an observation---primary weapons for the most part are not considered part of the critical build of competitive ships anymore, whereas Harpoons, bombs, and TLT are.
7 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:Harpoons should be dialed back just a bit (but not too much) to make other ordnance options viable.
Delaying the damage to the point when the condition triggers would be enough. Or overwriting the condition from one harpoon with another, so only on harpooned condition ever can be on the same ship. Both would be sufficient. Besides: removing the removal of the range 3 bonus for secondaries sounds rather reasonable. I am not 100% sure if it should be removed from the limited amo weapons as well, but in general it does sound good.
Edited by SEApocalypseI wish Jam Tokens had interfered with secondary weapons instead of being stress but different.
1 hour ago, Cloaker said:It's just an observation---primary weapons for the most part are not considered part of the critical build of competitive ships anymore, whereas Harpoons, bombs, and TLT are.
I think your observation is influenced by your bias and not true.
Are there ships using other attacks than TLT, Harpoons or Bombs? If yes, how many?
The strength of the ghost is not the TLT, two Y-Wings bring nearly the same firepower for less points. The strength is the primary and special fire arc for 4 dice AND the deactivation of autothrusters on the back-arc. So even the most prominent TLT ship currently is absolutely using and needing it's primary weapon. It's just that the TLT covers for nearly everything else and makes approaching this porcupine rather difficult.
Quick, someone photoshops Kanan's face into this. ;-)
Edited by SEApocalypsePerhaps the counter point does ring true. The top 10 pilots currently are
1) Miranda; (TLT, Bomb, Harpoon) The ultimate toolbox ship, with a broken regen pilot who basically dictates half of the meta alone since being introduced years ago. Point fortress as well.
2) Quickdraw; No bombs, turrets or cannons here. Desperately needed Imperial heavy hitter who must be flown wisely to avoid being focus fired.
3) Nym; (TLT, Bomb, Harpoon) Another toolbox, who defines nearly half the meta as well. Not as much of a point fortress but being able to use all the tools at PS10 makes him overpowered in relation to his cost.
4) Lowhhrick; No bombs, harpoons or turrets here. Unique ability that probably wasn't thoroughly playtested enough. Better defense than 90% of AG2 ships, secondary arc, but....beatable.
5) Fenn Rau Sheathipede; No bombs, harpoons or turrets here. Great ace for the cost. Fits the bill in many situations. Versatile. well designed.
6) Nu Squadron Pilot; Secondary Rock City, minus bombs. Undercosted, but invaluable as plug and fill Imperial squad component to keep those fellow aces alive.
7) Zeb Orelios; Doesn't count as it requires no skill. Placeholder for another ship.
8) Poe Dameron; No bombs, turrets or harpoons here, but has been resurrected on the scene in half the meta due to prominence of secondaries (Harpoons, primarily) Doesn't hit as hard but is a regen point fortress built to withstand and empower an entire squad's defense (Black One)
9) Dash Rendar; The OG of secondary carriers. Point fortress who occupies half the meta as well. Would not be nearly as dominant if HLC gave range bonuses to defense.
10) Ezra Sheathipede; No bombs, harpoons or turrets here. Tremendous value for a squad with stressbot. Can shut down many different lists.
So 40% of the top pilots are secondary based. Maybe that is more balanced than I initially thought.
27 minutes ago, Cloaker said:So 40% of the top pilots are secondary based. Maybe that is more balanced than I initially thought.
If 40% count as dominating... what about the other 60%? Why are they not 1,5times as dominating?
6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:If 40% count as dominating... what about the other 60%? Why are they not 1,5times as dominating?
This might help to understand.
Top six upgrade cards used in tournaments currently (#1 ain't harpoons guys):
| 1. |
|
Twin Laser Turret | Turret |
482
12.08% |
109
74.14% |
41.58% |
|
| 2. |
|
Sabine Wren | Crew |
187
4.68% |
80
54.42% |
46.94% |
|
| 3. |
|
Long-Range Scanners | Modification |
386
9.67% |
99
67.34% |
40.83% |
|
| 4. |
|
Veteran Instincts | Elite Pilot Talent |
1042
26.12% |
129
87.75% |
35.27% |
|
| 5. |
|
"Genius" | Salvaged Astromech Droid |
190
4.76% |
71
48.29% |
44.93% |
|
| 6. |
|
Harpoon Missiles | Missile |
637
15.96% |
119
80.95% |
36.94% |
|