So I skipped (or delayed rather) wave 6 but with the release of Wave 7 our local Armada scene got a serious boost.

I have plenty ideas for the Chimaera and/or a Profundity but cannot 'see' how I'd use Hammerheads effectively.

They seem so fragile and lack fire-power at first glance.

So here I am; asking you more experience Armada players how to build a list with and use Hammerheads effectively...

As always; thanks a bunch in advance.

Hammerheads work well in multiples, they are cheap platforms of potential firepower, such as External racks, so they’d be throwing 5 dice, 3 of which are rerollable blacks with OE, and you can spam several of them, and since that damage is spread it largely mitigates defense tokens

53 minutes ago, Elkerlyc said:

So I skipped (or delayed rather) wave 6 but with the release of Wave 7 our local Armada scene got a serious boost.

I have plenty ideas for the Chimaera and/or a Profundity but cannot 'see' how I'd use Hammerheads effectively.

They seem so fragile and lack fire-power at first glance.

So here I am; asking you more experience Armada players how to build a list with and use Hammerheads effectively...

As always; thanks a bunch in advance.

you have wave 7? put an ER OE GH hammerhead in profundity. You can drop it and activate it as your 1st ship that round. Lots of anti-ship punch and stays safe until delivery of its payload

I had a hammerhead (with some blessed dice) roll 11 freaking damage on first attack against me once. Leia was commander, CF & another bonus/cards, can’t remember what exactly.

Point being, they can chip away beyond what they appear to be capable of if you are not careful.

Having a bid for last/first helps- it’s not like an admonition that can get into position, take one on the chin and then still return fire. TFA helps them somewhat with durability, but they can still easily be one shotted by a large dice pool.

They will rarely get more than one big shot per turn, so exrax is the best choice for them.

They can also function like pickets, in the same vein as raiders. If you move a wall of 3+ of them slowly forward in formation and then have a speedy flanker like admo or a liberty, you can force your opponent into the den of waiting hammerheads

Hammerheads can be used well but they require practice, a lot like Raiders. @geek19 has been getting more use in with them lately and will update his article at some point or another with more insights, but for the time being, there is:

http://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2017/09/hammerheads-costco-brand-raiders.html

21 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

they can still easily be one shotted by a large dice pool.

This is one thing I'll disagree with and one of the things that's been born out in playtesting by @geek19 when it comes to Hammerheads. Hammerheads are just a bit more durable than other corvettes and for a cheaper cost . If you assume a single accuracy is in the pool, a healthy CR90 or Raider will be wiped out by 6 damage (post-evade). A Hammerhead requires 7 and a Task Force Antilles Hammerhead would require 8. Unless the contain is also locked down, there won't be any surprise Structural Damage kills going on either.

Large ships can pretty consistently generate around 6 damage, but regularly getting up to 7 (or even more, 8) is generally uncommon (Vader ISDs excepted, of course). It means Hammerheads can usually just barely survive even a heavier attack and live to unload where another corvette would've been wiped out. It's obviously superior to use them in a less head-on style, but they can handle it (especially at longer ranges) better than you'd think.

14 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

This is one thing I'll disagree with and one of the things that's been born out in playtesting by @geek19 when it comes to Hammerheads. Hammerheads are just a bit more durable than other corvettes and for a cheaper cost . If you assume a single accuracy is in the pool, a healthy CR90 or Raider will be wiped out by 6 damage (post-evade). A Hammerhead requires 7 and a Task Force Antilles Hammerhead would require 8. Unless the contain is also locked down, there won't be any surprise Structural Damage kills going on either.

Large ships can pretty consistently generate around 6 damage, but regularly getting up to 7 (or even more, 8) is generally uncommon (Vader ISDs excepted, of course). It means Hammerheads can usually just barely survive even a heavier attack and live to unload where another corvette would've been wiped out. It's obviously superior to use them in a less head-on style, but they can handle it (especially at longer ranges) better than you'd think.

This is generally true. Cymoon/Vader ISDs are the bane of Hammerheads, but otherwise they are surprisingly durable.

For me, Hammerheads are all about the Task Forces. I didn’t like them at first, but once I played around with those I started to see where their power comes from. I’ve been playing a Sato led Task Force Antilles and Shields to Maximum! based fleet that is a lot of fun. I’ve seen several versions of it floating around on these boards.

20 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

This is one thing I'll disagree with and one of the things that's been born out in playtesting by @geek19 when it comes to Hammerheads. Hammerheads are just a bit more durable than other corvettes and for a cheaper cost . If you assume a single accuracy is in the pool, a healthy CR90 or Raider will be wiped out by 6 damage (post-evade). A Hammerhead requires 7 and a Task Force Antilles Hammerhead would require 8. Unless the contain is also locked down, there won't be any surprise Structural Damage kills going on either.

Large ships can pretty consistently generate around 6 damage, but regularly getting up to 7 (or even more, 8) is generally uncommon (Vader ISDs excepted, of course). It means Hammerheads can usually just barely survive even a heavier attack and live to unload where another corvette would've been wiped out. It's obviously superior to use them in a less head-on style, but they can handle it (especially at longer ranges) better than you'd think.

I’m not disagreeing with you that they are a little sturdier with the extra hull, but I’ve found I’m usually able to hit the side arc, and I frequently play Vader Cymoons, so in my personal experience they get one shotted often lol

I’ve also witnessed a bunch of one shots on HH’s. But they punch well above their weight.

3 hours ago, Snipafist said:

This is one thing I'll disagree with and one of the things that's been born out in playtesting by @geek19 when it comes to Hammerheads. Hammerheads are just a bit more durable than other corvettes and for a cheaper cost . If you assume a single accuracy is in the pool, a healthy CR90 or Raider will be wiped out by 6 damage (post-evade). A Hammerhead requires 7 and a Task Force Antilles Hammerhead would require 8. Unless the contain is also locked down, there won't be any surprise Structural Damage kills going on either.

Large ships can pretty consistently generate around 6 damage, but regularly getting up to 7 (or even more, 8) is generally uncommon (Vader ISDs excepted, of course). It means Hammerheads can usually just barely survive even a heavier attack and live to unload where another corvette would've been wiped out. It's obviously superior to use them in a less head-on style, but they can handle it (especially at longer ranges) better than you'd think.

A lot of this, yeah. With Task Force Antilles (TFA for short), you need the 5 hull, 2 front shields, and the extra one passed to kill a hammerhead, ALL assuming I'm not using my defense tokens. Barring some..... statistical anomalies, this is not easy to get. Long range shots from ALMOST any ship (Stupid Vader Cymoons....) don't have enough. XI7s, one of the most common turbolaser upgrade, are effectively meaningless (I can only redirect one? K, don't care). I don't fear Dcaps VSD shots, as 6 damage doesn't kill me. Any token your opponent locks down with an accuracy is a damage that's not getting into your hull (double red damage vs evades excepted, as that's 2 damage, but when @Snipafist rolls 3 of them in one shot anyways my Hammerhead doesn't have a chance. Like I said, statistical anomalies). If they lock down your tokens, it SUCKS, yes, but it's survivable. Locking down your evade means that you can't remove a dice from the pool; but if that accuracy had been a hit anyways your Evade would have removed it anyways (X damage without an evade is SIMILAR to X+1 with an evade at long range; again, double red damage excepted). Same with the redirect. The really amusing thing about HH is locking down their defense tokens actually keeps them alive better, because that's damage NOT coming into your ship either way. To one-shot one, you need an accuracy (for the Evade, to prevent me removing any doubles) and 8 damage PLUS. That is not easy to do on most dice rolls, but keep in mind that ISD-IIs and Cymoons can (and will, as I found out yesterday) be outside the statistical mean. Vader is a jerk, is all I'm saying.

Much like Raiders, they LIKE first player, but it's not necessary. If you CAN catch something with them, great! Fire on them and hop away. They are very navigationally dependant, so to get good with HH you'll need to get REALLY good with knowing ranges and placements and such. They like commanders who can either play with their navigational abilities (Leia, Madine), upgrade their defenses (Cracken, Mothma), or supercharge their killing power (Dodonna Garel's Honor). It's NICE in the Raddus Profundity drop, but all that is is another attack that didn't need to worry about defenses on the way in. You're going to drop Garel's in at short range of a ship; don't put it in front of a Kuat and expect to survive. But in the side of it.....

They are NOT easy ships to get, and I'm still figuring them out/trying to get better with them. Feel free to ask any questions and I'll keep talking, haha

3 hours ago, MandalorianMoose said:

I’m not disagreeing with you that they are a little sturdier with the extra hull, but I’ve found I’m usually able to hit the side arc, and I frequently play Vader Cymoons, so in my personal experience they get one shotted often lol

This happened to me yesterday. I was fine, I was fine, Cymoon gets an unobstructed side shot on my HH after I ate some space rocks to try to stay alive and bam, dead. Sigh. Cymoon sigh.

43 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I was fine, I was fine

Narrator voice:
He was not, in fact, fine.

Well with you getting more triple doubles than Magic Johnson PRE Vader reroll.....

HH doesn't position as well so those side shots from a lot of things will do the job. Flotillas last way longer than HH. Getting the payload to the target is much harder than average as well due to the poorer high speeds.

9 hours ago, buckero0 said:

HH doesn't position as well so those side shots from a lot of things will do the job. Flotillas last way longer than HH. Getting the payload to the target is much harder than average as well due to the poorer high speeds.

4 hours ago, Villakarvarousku said:

Happy Camper!

Out of all the Rebel Admirals, Madine is probably 2nd best (Dodonna is probably the best still due to utility and cost) Rieekan is pretty good too, but most of the other ones are way too limiting. Often Rebel players tend to try all the other admirals though.

19 hours ago, geek19 said:

A lot of this, yeah. With Task Force Antilles (TFA for short), you need the 5 hull, 2 front shields, and the extra one passed to kill a hammerhead, ALL assuming I'm not using my defense tokens. Barring some..... statistical anomalies, this is not easy to get. Long range shots from ALMOST any ship (Stupid Vader Cymoons....) don't have enough. XI7s, one of the most common turbolaser upgrade, are effectively meaningless (I can only redirect one? K, don't care). I don't fear Dcaps VSD shots, as 6 damage doesn't kill me. Any token your opponent locks down with an accuracy is a damage that's not getting into your hull (double red damage vs evades excepted, as that's 2 damage, but when @Snipafist rolls 3 of them in one shot anyways my Hammerhead doesn't have a chance. Like I said, statistical anomalies). If they lock down your tokens, it SUCKS, yes, but it's survivable. Locking down your evade means that you can't remove a dice from the pool; but if that accuracy had been a hit anyways your Evade would have removed it anyways (X damage without an evade is SIMILAR to X+1 with an evade at long range; again, double red damage excepted). Same with the redirect. The really amusing thing about HH is locking down their defense tokens actually keeps them alive better, because that's damage NOT coming into your ship either way. To one-shot one, you need an accuracy (for the Evade, to prevent me removing any doubles) and 8 damage PLUS. That is not easy to do on most dice rolls, but keep in mind that ISD-IIs and Cymoons can (and will, as I found out yesterday) be outside the statistical mean. Vader is a jerk, is all I'm saying.

Much like Raiders, they LIKE first player, but it's not necessary. If you CAN catch something with them, great! Fire on them and hop away. They are very navigationally dependant, so to get good with HH you'll need to get REALLY good with knowing ranges and placements and such. They like commanders who can either play with their navigational abilities (Leia, Madine), upgrade their defenses (Cracken, Mothma), or supercharge their killing power (Dodonna Garel's Honor). It's NICE in the Raddus Profundity drop, but all that is is another attack that didn't need to worry about defenses on the way in. You're going to drop Garel's in at short range of a ship; don't put it in front of a Kuat and expect to survive. But in the side of it.....

They are NOT easy ships to get, and I'm still figuring them out/trying to get better with them. Feel free to ask any questions and I'll keep talking, haha

Which type of HH are you using? That makes a huge difference because I'd agree it's going to be hard killing a group of Scouts with TFA.

But the Torp HH is incredibly easy to kill, even with TFA. Unless you run the front arc directly at the LOS dot on the enemy hull, you'll be exposing a side arc. Close range on anything big can generate enough damage and 1 Acc. So 7 damage after TFA. Easy peasy.

My quick calculations with a 4 red / 3 blue, LS pool give this:

Red- reroll Acc and blank : 4.24 damage
Blue - reroll Acc : 2.9 damage
And you have a natural 1.25 Acc with this pool, so any extras are rerolled.
Rerolling only red blanks and no blues yields 6 damage.

All 4 MC80s, Cymoon, ISD II, and Vic II are essentially capable of generating this dice pool and upgrade load. Clearly the Cymoon has 1 extra red and you need Vader, and you'll have to CF a blue or red on the other ships, but it's a generic dice pool on these larger ships.

This is assuming close range though, and I won't bother with black dice since it's so much fun popping HHs with APTs.

I would guess most people struggle with the HH since they take the Torp over the Scout, because you're better off taking a CR90 over a Scout.

34 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Which type of HH are you using? That makes a huge difference because I'd agree it's going to be hard killing a group of Scouts with TFA.

But the Torp HH is incredibly easy to kill, even with TFA. Unless you run the front arc directly at the LOS dot on the enemy hull, you'll be exposing a side arc. Close range on anything big can generate enough damage and 1 Acc. So 7 damage after TFA. Easy peasy.

My quick calculations with a 4 red / 3 blue, LS pool give this:

Red- reroll Acc and blank : 4.24 damage
Blue - reroll Acc : 2.9 damage
And you have a natural 1.25 Acc with this pool, so any extras are rerolled.
Rerolling only red blanks and no blues yields 6 damage.

All 4 MC80s, Cymoon, ISD II, and Vic II are essentially capable of generating this dice pool and upgrade load. Clearly the Cymoon has 1 extra red and you need Vader, and you'll have to CF a blue or red on the other ships, but it's a generic dice pool on these larger ships.

This is assuming close range though, and I won't bother with black dice since it's so much fun popping HHs with APTs.

I would guess most people struggle with the HH since they take the Torp over the Scout, because you're better off taking a CR90 over a Scout.

I mean, if I'm in short range, yeah, that can happen. I try to keep them where they're either out of red range when the ISD/MC80 has to activate, or in red range/blue range so that when the ship moves it lands at close of me. It's not the easiest thing to achieve, but it's great when your opponent has to wander in, or when you send in several HH afterwards. They can probably kill 1, mmmmmaybe 2. But the others....

It also helps that statistically those numbers might be right (not disagreeing, just not doing the math to agree/disagree with you), but in practice.... I had a HH at Regionals survive a Medium range ISD-II blast. It was badly wounded, but I even had TFOrgana on it. I also haven't seen a Spinals VSD-2 in the wild. Most people I see use H9s or Xi7s on them. That's the average number, but it's also why we roll the dice.

The other benefit of facing all those large ships is that you can generally predict slash see where they're going to be/end up. HH like catching ships, much like Raiders. The ram is more of a finisher than how you should START the attack. And if you can start out of range and end in black range? Good times, good times.

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

I mean, if I'm in short range, yeah, that can happen. I try to keep them where they're either out of red range when the ISD/MC80 has to activate, or in red range/blue range so that when the ship moves it lands at close of me. It's not the easiest thing to achieve, but it's great when your opponent has to wander in, or when you send in several HH afterwards. They can probably kill 1, mmmmmaybe 2. But the others....

It also helps that statistically those numbers might be right (not disagreeing, just not doing the math to agree/disagree with you), but in practice.... I had a HH at Regionals survive a Medium range ISD-II blast. It was badly wounded, but I even had TFOrgana on it. I also haven't seen a Spinals VSD-2 in the wild. Most people I see use H9s or Xi7s on them. That's the average number, but it's also why we roll the dice.

The other benefit of facing all those large ships is that you can generally predict slash see where they're going to be/end up. HH like catching ships, much like Raiders. The ram is more of a finisher than how you should START the attack. And if you can start out of range and end in black range? Good times, good times.

I use spinals VSD2’s constantly. If you wanna toss range dice downrange toss all the dice.

5 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I use spinals VSD2’s constantly.

This is because you're a chump who likes spending extra instead of just taking QBT on there like sane people.

7 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I use spinals VSD2’s constantly. If you wanna toss range dice downrange toss all the dice.

I'd like to say I'm still not worried about the dice rolls, but I just watched my fleet evaporate Saturday to Vader Double Cymoon. Statistically, I should have been fine. In reality, I was not. But how often will triple red doubles show up?

1/512

... and yes, I’ll tell you the effin’ Odds if I want to, Han...

2 hours ago, geek19 said:

But how often will triple red doubles show up?

I rolled 4 doubles, hit, crit TWICE at ffg regionals, before rerolls. Of course, after Vader died in my second game, the other Cymoon needed 3 damage TOTAL to kill the remaining assault frigate for the table, I roll 4 blank reds, red acc, red hit, 2 blue acc...

2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is because you're a chump who likes spending extra instead of just taking QBT on there like sane people.

Especially since they work on ALL ARCS, so getting flanked is less painful

QBT is for *******. I like my dice mods like my women, expensive and unlikely to hit.