So I'm going to be that guy.
Bomb cards say 'drop'. Genius says 'drop'. Trajectory Simulator says 'instead of dropping'. From just reading they should work together, but for some reason they don't.
So how can Automated Protocols give a 'free' recover or reinforce action when page 4 of the Epic rule book specifically states Huge ships cannot preform 'free' actions.
These are both prime examples of FFG's patented "Because we say so" rulings. They say it works (or doesn't, in the case of Genius), and it is so.
I think that "Free actions" mentioned in the Rule book is related to free actions granted by effects for other ships or cards in your side (like Squad Leader). Automated Protocols are for Huge ships only and follow the Golden Rules (SWXW Rules Reference page 2):
"Card abilities can override the rules listed in this
guide. Mission rules can override both card abilities
and rules from this guide."
1 hour ago, Arachneo said:I think that "Free actions" mentioned in the Rule book is related to free actions granted by effects for other ships or cards in your side (like Squad Leader). Automated Protocols are for Huge ships only and follow the Golden Rules (SWXW Rules Reference page 2):
"Card abilities can override the rules listed in this
guide. Mission rules can override both card abilities
and rules from this guide."
So why can't I grant free actions while stressed through card abilities?
Because cards have to provide specific exceptions to general rules, to provide exceptions at all. Actions generally can't be done whilst stressed, so the card has to indicate that a free action is allowed whilst stressed, to allow it.
9 minutes ago, Zomboid said:So why can't I grant free actions while stressed through card abilities?
Rules say that you can't so you can't... unless your name is Tycho.
Below is the golden rule that all of this hinges upon. Cards can override the rule book including the word cannot. The specific cannot wins versus can/ may is when there is a conflict between two cards, or a card and a mission rule in that scenario cannot wins vs can. If cannot in the rules was absolute as well a ton of cards do nothing.
"Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide. Mission rules can override both card abilities and rules from this guide. If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects."
5 hours ago, Smitty said:Rules say that you can't so you can't... unless your name is Tycho.
Below is the golden rule that all of this hinges upon. Cards can override the rule book including the word cannot. The specific cannot wins versus can/ may is when there is a conflict between two cards, or a card and a mission rule in that scenario cannot wins vs can. If cannot in the rules was absolute as well a ton of cards do nothing.
"Card abilities can override the rules listed in this guide. Mission rules can override both card abilities and rules from this guide. If a card ability or mission effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute and cannot be overridden by other effects."
Rules also say Huge ships cannot preform free actions.
Push the limit says after preforming an action you may preform a free action. So if a can preform an action while stressed through another card, R4-E1 ect., I would then be able to use push the limit, because of the golden rules you keep quoting. Card supersedes rules ect.
5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Because cards have to provide specific exceptions to general rules, to provide exceptions at all. Actions generally can't be done whilst stressed, so the card has to indicate that a free action is allowed whilst stressed, to allow it.
The rules say Huge ships cannot preform free actions. Automated protocols say you may preform a free recover or reinforce action. It does not reference being able to ignore the rule. Just does.
It doesn't function otherwise.
But yeah some of the epic rules are badly written.
2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:It doesn't function otherwise.
But yeah some of the
epicrules are badly written.
Fixed that for you.
20 hours ago, Zomboid said:Rules also say Huge ships cannot preform free actions.
Push the limit says after preforming an action you may preform a free action. So if a can preform an action while stressed through another card, R4-E1 ect., I would then be able to use push the limit, because of the golden rules you keep quoting. Card supersedes rules ect.
Free actions are always restricted by normal rules. Because PTL is 'may' it does not override normal rules. If PTL said 'you must perform a free action...' then it would (presumably) work through stress.
The thing with both Automated Protocols and Genius v Trajectory is that they respectively work and don't work because am FAQ "clarification" says so. Don't logic it and don't use either as precedent for anything else.
I understand the frustration, FFG absolutely should have errata'd the Trajectory Simulator reference to not include the words 'drop' or 'instead' to keep it from working. These "we just say so" rulings foster a an unfortunate distrust of how basic card interactions work.
Except in the case of Genius, if you go by the book reading of the rule they were right to do so...
Launch Bomb read like this:
"Instead of
dropping a bomb
, some abilities in this product allow a ship to LAUNCH a bomb token. To launch a bomb token, follow these steps." If we see no token reference.
Genius:
"After you reveal and execute a maneuver, if you did not overlap a ship, you may discard one of your equipped Bomb Upgrade cards without the "Action:" header to drop the
corresponding bomb token
." Oupsie Genius make you drop the corresponding token, it does not let you drop a bomb at all...
It may be spliting the hair... but in a game where Reroll is not a Roll and other split the hair word difference, I see it as a big deal to explain why Genius does not work with Trajectory Simulator...
On 2/12/2018 at 9:12 AM, thespaceinvader said:It doesn't function otherwise.
But yeah some of the epic rules are badly written.
And much like the Rules Reference, in need of an overhaul to include the changes of the last few years.
Edited by ParravonOn 2/11/2018 at 2:10 PM, Zomboid said:
The rules say Huge ships cannot preform free actions. Automated protocols say you may preform a free recover or reinforce action. It does not reference being able to ignore the rule. Just does.
You have to look at the specific rules insert that comes with the Gozanti and (maybe) the CROC. They specify the updated rules about Huge Only upgrade cards that grant free actions. The rules inserts online and in the older Epics do not mention this.
I'll be the other guy.
The latest Epic rules include a line to this effect: "Huge ships cannot perform free actions except on 'huge ship-only' upgrades."
On 2/11/2018 at 3:10 PM, Zomboid said:The rules say Huge ships cannot preform free actions.
So I guess the rules don't say this.
On 16/2/2018 at 10:43 PM, theBitterFig said:The latest Epic rules include a line to this effect: "Huge ships cannot perform free actions except on 'huge ship-only' upgrades."
On 11/2/2018 at 9:10 PM, Zomboid said:
A change published on 12/02 as noted in the FFG web. So Zomboid is not lying. Good that a clarification has been done.
56 minutes ago, Arachneo said:A change published on 12/02 as noted in the FFG web. So Zomboid is not lying. Good that a clarification has been done.
Never said someone was lying... just a comment about the present state of the rules.
10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:Never said someone was lying... just a comment about the present state of the rules.
Nor did I ever say that you said it. I just wanted to remark so that Zomboid did not think he had looked bad
On 2/12/2018 at 1:49 PM, muribundi said:Genius:
"After you reveal and execute a maneuver, if you did not overlap a ship, you may discard one of your equipped Bomb Upgrade cards without the "Action:" header to drop the corresponding bomb token ." Oupsie Genius make you drop the corresponding token, it does not let you drop a bomb at all...
So by your definition/explanation, I could launch a thermal detonator but place a cluster mine because it doesn't state corresponding bombs token.
No joke you have to use the corresponding bombs token. No matter how you use them.
And per you quote of Genius, you still 'drop' the corresponding bombs token.
On 2/12/2018 at 1:49 PM, muribundi said:Genius make you drop the corresponding token, it does not let you drop a bomb at all...
Dropping a bomb Token
Each bomb Upgrade card allows you to drop a bomb Token.
Rule for dropping bomb straight out of the book. So, again by your definition/explanation, Trajectory Simulator shouldn't work ever. Oopsie just like being able to fire out side of Arc is not a 360 degree Arc. There is no such thing as just dropping a bomb. It's actually dropping a bomb Token.
On 2/18/2018 at 6:34 AM, Arachneo said:Nor did I ever say that you said it. I just wanted to remark so that Zomboid did not think he had looked bad
I always knew the rules are they way they are because someone decides they are what they are. Just wanted to point out more inconsistencies in both the rules and players perception of them. By playing ignorrent and basing my counter argument off of assumptions and misinformation.
I don't care about trajectory sim and genius or free actions on huge ships. It is what it is. I just hope that this, among many other threads, forces change so that in the future people won't buy a $40 ship for a card only to find out a month later it doesn't actually do what it says.
This is not to say FAQ's are not needed. Somethings need to change. But to disguise an errata' as a clarification all because of poor editing is not the same.