The other link went off topic, so I'm trying to bring it back.

My recommendation: Harpoons don't stack and they cannot active other harpoons even with a crit. This will force players to use other methods to activate harpoons, rather then spam them. some have mentioned forcing a target lock to be used in the attack, but deadeye counters that.

Thanks,

I am a fan of changing the card to read the next time you suffer a crit hit.

This would keep stuff like TLT from throwing out a crit and canceling it but still triggering harpoons. I don't know the exact odds but with tossing out 6 red dice seems like a crit is almost a given.

I realize this is a softer nerf then what many want for Harpoons but I think it might be enough to bring them in line if you take away the 2nd trigger when the ship is destroyed.

combining assault missiles and rockets into one missile for less points was stupid.

harpoons need to be way more expensive or way less effective.

as is they should be 6 or 7 points.

if they stayed at 4 points they should only deal a single damage and cancel all results, then establish condition. maybe doing 1 critical? but being able to nearly kill most fighters then splash multiple damage around... its dumb. it also thematic nonsense, because how does a harpoon do splash damage, but yeah. stupid design all around

Even just spending the lock to fire instead of being able to keep it for rerolls would take it down a peg, though it is still better than most other missiles and torps even with that change.

I would rather see something that gives us other options instead of straight up nerfing Harpoons.

An Errata to add a line to Guidance Chips that says, "When attacking with a "Torpedo" you may reroll up to 2 or your attack dice."

That would not nerf Harpoons but might be incentive to use other types of ordnance on other types of ships.

1 hour ago, eagletsi111 said:

The other link went off topic, so I'm trying to bring it back.

My recommendation: Harpoons don't stack and they cannot active other harpoons even with a crit. This will force players to use other methods to activate harpoons, rather then spam them. some have mentioned forcing a target lock to be used in the attack, but deadeye counters that.

Thanks,

No.

Do you know what is the best methods to nerf Harpoons?
Learn to fly against them and adjust your list.
Harpoons are completely manageable by good play and good list building.

How many more threads about Harpoons do we need?

If you are actually serious about it then compile a list of suggestions. Then we can discuss.

Otherwise this thread will derail like all others before them.

Want to nerf Harpoons? Remove them from the game. Done. Either that or live with them until FFG releases the canon, bomb missile or torpedo that is even more OP than Harpoons are.

Someone said that FFG is trying to shorten the time that rounds last in a tournament. Whether that's true, I don't know. But if you look at the recent errata and clarifications it appears that way. Biggs once per game, Crist from TLT' s triggering Harpoon and mechanics that give unavoidable damage are just a few examples.

16 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Want to nerf Harpoons? Remove them from the game. Done. Either that or live with them until FFG releases the canon, bomb missile or torpedo that is even more OP than Harpoons are.

Someone said that FFG is trying to shorten the time that rounds last in a tournament. Whether that's true, I don't know. But if you look at the recent errata and clarifications it appears that way. Biggs once per game, Crist from TLT' s triggering Harpoon and mechanics that give unavoidable damage are just a few examples.

Amen.

OTOH, OP-1 will become OP and there we go again.

Hate harpoons? Don't play them. If everyone who thought they were an NPE just didn't field them, you'd probably see them half as often.

Be the change you want to see.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Hate harpoons? Don't play them. If everyone who thought they were an NPE just didn't field them, you'd probably see them half as often.

Be the change you want to see.

46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How many more threads about Harpoons do we need?

So, nerf all Harpoon threads?

hey, how about a new Proximity Missile, 4 points, 4 dice, range 2-3, Focus but not spent, if it misses then all ships within range one of target, including the target, roll 1 damage die and suffer any hit or crit.

Is that a better design than the OP Harpoon?

1 hour ago, wurms said:

I can hate a game I win, or I can love a game I lose.

I'd rather spend an afternoon doing the latter.

And I don't need a trophy for my efforts, regardless of how the day ends.

2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

combining assault missiles and rockets into one missile for less points was stupid.

harpoons need to be way more expensive or way less effective.

as is they should be 6 or 7 points.

if they stayed at 4 points they should only deal a single damage and cancel all results, then establish condition. maybe doing 1 critical? but being able to nearly kill most fighters then splash multiple damage around... its dumb. it also thematic nonsense, because how does a harpoon do splash damage, but yeah. stupid design all around

So the one point I never saw brought up in the other thread that I'll bring up here.

No one was playing assault missles, they were bad. Alex Davy said something that I thought was really brilliant when the fang fighters came out. Somone asked him, aren't you worried that this makes the khriax even worse because the fang is almost strictly better. His response, I'm paraphrasing because i did not have the presence of mind to write it down, was that making the fang the same power level as the khriax would be doubling down on a design mistake. He acknowledged he made an underpowered ship, making another wouldn't help the game. That's kinda my stance on harpoons. All the other ordinance wasn't getting it done against defensive stacking, including pre nerf jumpmasters, harpoons were the first thing that really could punch through and punish regenners and defensive stackers. It does suck that other things got caught in the crossfire, but that's been an x wing problem since wave 4.

Rewrite the harpoons to only trigger against large ships?

rewrite the condition to limit your movement - explodes if ship with condition goes further than range 2 of the ship that attacked them.

Both those go more inline with the classical definition of a harpoon.

-OR-

you can only field them be writing a 2000 word book report on Melville’s Moby ****.

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

making the fang the same power level as the khriax would be doubling down on a design mistake. He acknowledged he made an underpowered ship, making another wouldn't help the game.

OUCH. Poor T-65, I still love you.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

So, nerf all Harpoon threads?

No, the opposite. If you reread you‘ll notice that I want to buff Harpoon thread into something viable and worthwile

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

So the one point I never saw brought up in the other thread that I'll bring up here.

No one was playing assault missles, they were bad. Alex Davy said something that I thought was really brilliant when the fang fighters came out. Somone asked him, aren't you worried that this makes the khriax even worse because the fang is almost strictly better. His response, I'm paraphrasing because i did not have the presence of mind to write it down, was that making the fang the same power level as the khriax would be doubling down on a design mistake . He acknowledged he made an underpowered ship, making another wouldn't help the game . That's kinda my stance on harpoons. All the other ordinance wasn't getting it done against defensive stacking, including pre nerf jumpmasters, harpoons were the first thing that really could punch through and punish regenners and defensive stackers. It does suck that other things got caught in the crossfire, but that's been an x wing problem since wave 4.

worth repeating, with emphasis.

Another answer is, unless other nerfs are made to the defense/regen in the game, harpooons should not be nerfed.

Nerfs in tandom, or not at all.

Edit: And thus, suggesting nerfs without context of other nerfs is hard.

People are still on beefing harpoons while the TLT Ghost is dominating cuts. WTF.

Not to be harsh, but harpoons are strong but not OP by any measure

Harpoons are one of the few things keeping Ghosts & Wookies in check, and making front facing arcs relevant.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

How many more threads about Harpoons do we need?

I don't know, no one does. I think it's the chassis that are way too good like Nym and Miranda that should generate the ire prior to a missile. Even TLT should be on the chopping block before a missile that is shot from an 80 degree arc...whatever those crazy old things are.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Someone said that FFG is trying to shorten the time that rounds last in a tournament. Whether that's true, I don't know. But if you look at the recent errata and clarifications it appears that way. Biggs once per game, Crist from TLT' s triggering Harpoon and mechanics that give unavoidable damage are just a few examples.

Yeah, someone might say that, but if that were true how in the world did they issue us Reinforce and the new PS 11 Coordinate Fenn?

2 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

So, nerf all Harpoon threads?

Haha....maybe?

7 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

I don't know, no one does. I think it's the chassis that are way too good like Nym and Miranda that should generate the ire prior to a missile. Even TLT should be on the chopping block before a missile that is shot from an 80 degree arc...whatever those crazy old things are.

Yeah, someone might say that, but if that were true how in the world did they issue us Reinforce and the new PS 11 Coordinate Fenn?

Haha....maybe?

Well, it's obvious. If you kill the Imps off quickly, the game ends.

Seriously though, look at some of the older stuff, that was never used, has now become the go to OP effect that's on just about every meta list.

Genius, bombs, Harpoons,etc.. Some of the recent nerfs were to tone back the most OP and obnoxious elements of the game. Which they replaced with slightly less OP and obnoxious elements. I predict that TLT' s will get the nerf hammer as soon as another range 2-3 turret is available. Currently, it's the only turret upgrade that goes out to R3.

I doubt true balance will ever be achieved in the game. Buffs for the T-65 will make it almost indistinguishable from the T-70. What would that achieve for the generic pilots? I also doubt that a Version 2.0 will be seen anytime soon. With all the movies coming out along with new stuff by the team that did Game of Thrones, FFG will be too busy to bother with a V 2.0. The best we can hope for is a decent rock-paper-scissors game which doesn't preclude a new meta from forming.

Which brings me to the last observation. Everyone points to the tournament standings for the current meta and what's OP or NPE. The guys that consistently place in the top 8 could still win with a non-meta list by why should they use something different? If THE BEST BUILD is the current meta, there's no reason to use something else. Except maybe bragging rights. The meta remains the meta until a new release dethrones it. For competitive play, you're sort of stuck with it. For casual play, it has little effect.

just make it 3 dice, easy

rather have TLT hit first though. That ghost is no fun at all

20 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

The guys that consistently place in the top 8 could still win with a non-meta list by why should they use something different? If THE BEST BUILD is the current meta, there's no reason to use something else. Except maybe bragging rights. The meta remains the meta until a new release dethrones it. For competitive play, you're sort of stuck with it. For casual play, it has little effect.

Agreed. This constant "OP PLZ NERF" is like a combatant complaining "this sword is too sharp" or "this machine gun fires too many rounds per second." Players can either think like this

11 hours ago, wurms said:

or they can not play that way.

TLT, JM5K, Palp, and Harpoons have never been my bane not because the game is or isn't broken, but because I don't play in a milieu that thinks in those terms.

11 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

worth repeating, with emphasis.

Another answer is, unless other nerfs are made to the defense/regen in the game, harpooons should not be nerfed.

Nerfs in tandom, or not at all.

Edit: And thus, suggesting nerfs without context of other nerfs is hard.

I think people have largely identified the wrong tandem.

Its not about nerfs to Harpoons and Defense/Regen at the same time.

Its about nerfs for Defense/Regen and buffs for actually fun things specifically with arcs in both the Rebel & Scum factions at the same time.

• Fun Things Include:
  • Rebels: T-65, T-70, A-Wing, B-Wing, Y-Wing, E-Wing, Arc-170, Z-95, U-Wing
  • Scum: Protectorate, M12, M3, Starviper, Khiraxz, Quadjumper, G-1A, Firespray, Z-95

The list is somewhat sarcastic...but you get the point.

12 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Its not about nerfs to Harpoons and Defense/Regen at the same time.

Its about nerfs for Defense/Regen and buffs for actually fun things specifically with arcs in both the Rebel & Scum factions at the same time.

The list is somewhat sarcastic...but you get the point.

The point I get is that people will obstinately play stuff they hate in order to win.

Maybe it's time to cull. If people only want to see the "fun stuff" FFG should just cut the rest.

It's in the game for casual play where people self regulate for fun, and takes away the "nuclear option" for people who need to win, need to have fun, but can't figure out how to do both at the same time.

Culling could rebalance the game around a core set of "desirables" and reopen design space for a better version of what was cut.