9 minutes ago, Timinater said:

I agree that 6 x Z6 trooper units is a heap of dice. And that trooper swam lists will be very hard to beat with their ability to take up objective points.

However tieren is saying that 5 units of 4 Fleet Troopers focus firing on Vader will take him out in one round! hahahhahahaahhahaaaa

As well states that the AT-ST' is "least efficient in terms of offensive power"................?

for the 200+ points you spend on it, it is. You pay an awful lot for that armor health pool and high "half damage" value. As for the rest of it, that's just the math (and without any aim tokens either!). Actually catching vader out in the open, within r2 of 5 units of fleet troopers is a bit ott to expect to happen in the real world though.

8 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

for the 200+ points you spend on it, it is. You pay an awful lot for that armor health pool and high "half damage" value. As for the rest of it, that's just the math (and without any aim tokens either!). Actually catching vader out in the open, within r2 of 5 units of fleet troopers is a bit ott to expect to happen in the real world though.

Ok wrt the AT-ST time will tell once we have a meta. And on it's own yes very expensive and open to rear attacks ect. And if an opponent played their AT-ST on the map without any troopers about to keep it safe, they deserve to see it removed from the table (and hopefully learn)!

If my Vader was 'all of a sudden' within range 2 of 5 fleet trooper units, you had better expect that i'll be playing Master of Evil next round and activating him asap........good luck even getting that focus fire! Also remember that once in close combat a unit can't be shot at

1 hour ago, Timinater said:

As well states that the AT-ST' is "least efficient in terms of offensive power"................?

At-ST is very inefficient in terms of offensive power. That’s not opinion, it’s maths.

It pays a lot of points for its toughness and versatility, both of which are amazing....but in raw damage per point it’s pretty weak.

The game might not be out on shelves yet, but the great majority of he rules are out and some people have played quite a few games already.

6 hours ago, tieren said:

Yes you’re absolutely right. I’m crapping on about everything and have no idea what I’m talking about. Thank you oh great one for your wisdom

I wouldn't go that far!

You have done fantastic work with the simulator, and I just don't think 5 units of 4 Fleet Troopers would get a chance to focus firing on Vader or then take him out in one round.

Also I see now that the offensive power of the AT-ST is pricey, however i'll still be giving one a good go at it!

AT-STs are certainly good, but they are good because of the whole package...the firepower isn’t enormous for the cost, but coupled with the fact that it’s very tough and quite mobile, and suddenly it makes sense.

Not saying that 5x fleet troopers can catch Vader out in the open like that. Just making a math comparison of raw efficiency of ATST vs fleet troopers. Like most people have said. And yes, you trade off raw efficiency for things like armour, single high health unit with staying power etc

Thanks @Timinater would be great if you’re abit more polite next time

42 minutes ago, Extropia said:

AT-STs are certainly good, but they are good because of the whole package...the firepower isn’t enormous for the cost, but coupled with the fact that it’s very tough and quite mobile, and suddenly it makes sense.

Yes and no.

I mean it makes sense, but as someone with an xwing background there's that niggling voice in the back of my head going "here we go again" with imp defense rng overpricing the effectiveness of their units..... that *IS* a wait and see (and i really hope i'm wrong, because i really want to imp it this time round) because objectives, cover and all that jazz.....

It’s not just the health, armor, etc of the ATST... it’s the fact that when your enemy brings a t47, it’s one of the few units that can do some hurt to it.

Im not sure but debating if hh12 troops will be enough to deal with the vehicles brought. Cumbersome is an issue, but they can hold objectives and they’re way cheaper than an atst.

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

It’s not just the health, armor, etc of the ATST... it’s the fact that when your enemy brings a t47, it’s one of the few units that can do some hurt to it.

Im not sure but debating if hh12 troops will be enough to deal with the vehicles brought. Cumbersome is an issue, but they can hold objectives and they’re way cheaper than an atst.

The dlt-19 is much more efficient than the hh-12. It does .25 average (with a squad of 4 other troopers) more damage and can be fired every round

6 minutes ago, Jabby said:

The dlt-19 is much more efficient than the hh-12. It does .25 average (with a squad of 4 other troopers) more damage and can be fired every round

I haven’t played any games on TTS with the T47 (I’m trying to get used to what comes with the initial release) but there’s a sizable number of players that are saying the Imperial special weapons make it unworth playing at the moment. Apparently it takes some really fancy flying to get its worth in points back and those HH-12s and DLTs are what put the most hurt on it.

48 minutes ago, Jabby said:

The dlt-19 is much more efficient than the hh-12. It does .25 average (with a squad of 4 other troopers) more damage and can be fired every round

That isnt the case if its true that keywords apply to the whole dice pool. No aim since i can't be bothered...i'm working it out between turns on Warhammer total war

DLT + 4 stormies = 0.75 crits, and enough hits to get the Impact 1 crit. Total = 1.75 damage to armour

HH12 + 4 Stormies = 0.875 crits, and 2.5 hits which become crits due to Impact 3. Total = 3.375 damage to armour

If it IS true that the keyword applies to the whole attack, the HH12 has become hugely better (which is good as it was very underwhelming before).

8 minutes ago, Extropia said:

That isnt the case if its true that keywords apply to the whole dice pool. No aim since i can't be bothered...i'm working it out between turns on Warhammer total war

DLT + 4 stormies = 0.75 crits, and enough hits to get the Impact 1 crit. Total = 1.75 damage to armour

HH12 + 4 Stormies = 0.875 crits, and 2.5 hits which become crits due to Impact 3. Total = 3.375 damage to armour

If it IS true that the keyword applies to the whole attack, the HH12 has become hugely better (which is good as it was very underwhelming before).

I guess my maths was a bit off, i was tryna do the calculations mentally while doing my astronomy assignment and browse the forums at the same time

3 minutes ago, Extropia said:

If it IS true that the keyword applies to the whole attack, the HH12 has become hugely better (which is good as it was very underwhelming before).

Everything points to this being true. Several demos have worked this way. And I think in the Spanish rulebook leak the order of attacking is essentially this:

1. Declare target

2. Create attacker’s dice pool

3. Roll attack dice

4. Modify attack pool with cover/dodge token

5. Modify attack pool with offensive keywords/surges

6. Roll defensive dice

7. Modify defense pool with defensive keywords/surges

8. Compare pools and resolve

59 minutes ago, Jabby said:

The dlt-19 is much more efficient than the hh-12. It does .25 average (with a squad of 4 other troopers) more damage and can be fired every round

As an overall efficiency of more dice on target every turn, maybe.

In terms of being able to put the hurt on armor, not as much. That impact 1 means I’m likely only dealing 1 or maybe 2 damage to the armor, assuming their defense dice blank out entirely.

Getting 3+ on an hh12 sounds a lot better, as long as you can get them in position before the shooting starts.

16 minutes ago, Extropia said:

That isnt the case if its true that keywords apply to the whole dice pool. No aim since i can't be bothered...i'm working it out between turns on Warhammer total war

DLT + 4 stormies = 0.75 crits, and enough hits to get the Impact 1 crit. Total = 1.75 damage to armour

HH12 + 4 Stormies = 0.875 crits, and 2.5 hits which become crits due to Impact 3. Total = 3.375 damage to armour

If it IS true that the keyword applies to the whole attack, the HH12 has become hugely better (which is good as it was very underwhelming before).

Just realised that you’re talking about attacking armour. Oops. But remember that the dlt can fire consistently every round. The dlt is more a generalist

At least until the funds are there for more units, I suspect all my troopers will be bringing a specialist. HH for some anti armor, and some would have DLT for all around. The snowtroopers I am looking more toward the icon trooper than the flamethrower one. We don’t yet know about he flamethrower stats for the snowtrooper, but the ion control sounds so much better.

We'll probably need to experiment with the full breadth of setup/conditions/objectives to see what an AT-STs real value is, but I think the flexibility of weapons and attacks is probably pretty key. It's expensive, but you can arm it with a variety of options with a variety of engagement ranges and keywords. 4+ on Mortar Launcher for instance means you'll be suppressing enemy units from across the map. Do a high priority activation, you can snap this off on targets with weak defenses before they token up. You might get lucky and get more suppression in, or scratch units before they can retaliate.

All this mathhammer, in addition to sucking all the fun out if it, cant factor in the Phychological factor that plonking down Vader or a ATST has on your opponent, compared to an equivelant points worth of regular troops/support squads.

Opponents will either react by:

1) AHHH, Kill it, BRING IT DOWN BRING IT DOWN. focusing their entire effort in neutralising that massive points sink of yours, over playing the objective

or

2) AHHH, Run away, out maneouvre your massive point sink and go for the objectives furthest away.

You are playing a human, not a robot. They are going to make emotional choices. And thats half the fun of the game.

Out of curiosity who gets priority if both players choose a one pip card? I can’t find an explanation for that.

roll a red defense die. Active player goes first if a block is rolled I think. It’s a 50/50 roll off essentially

I thought that might be the case. Thank you!

8 hours ago, Funk Fu master said:

All this mathhammer, in addition to sucking all the fun out if it, cant factor in the Phychological factor that plonking down Vader or a ATST has on your opponent, compared to an equivelant points worth of regular troops/support squads.

Opponents will either react by:

1) AHHH, Kill it, BRING IT DOWN BRING IT DOWN. focusing their entire effort in neutralising that massive points sink of yours, over playing the objective

or

2) AHHH, Run away, out maneouvre your massive point sink and go for the objectives furthest away.

You are playing a human, not a robot. They are going to make emotional choices. And thats half the fun of the game.

True enough, though some people do find maths fun

But you are totally right that the psychological factor is huge, and simply be can't be accounted for.

12 hours ago, Funk Fu master said:

All this mathhammer, in addition to sucking all the fun out if it, cant factor in the Phychological factor that plonking down Vader or a ATST has on your opponent, compared to an equivelant points worth of regular troops/support squads.

Opponents will either react by:

1) AHHH, Kill it, BRING IT DOWN BRING IT DOWN. focusing their entire effort in neutralising that massive points sink of yours, over playing the objective

or

2) AHHH, Run away, out maneouvre your massive point sink and go for the objectives furthest away.

You are playing a human, not a robot. They are going to make emotional choices. And thats half the fun of the game.

That is true. Its the same effect of seeing a hero in battlefront 2. You either just shoot it to try and kill it, or you run.