8 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

The version that I've played against had Rey and Recon Specialist. And mostly spent the focus tokens on reducing my attacks. Poe would have won, if I'd been flying him.

Yeah, that's the less powerful form.

6 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Yeah, that's the less powerful form.

So what’s the Pokémon Ghost evolved form then?

5 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

You might need to re-read accuracy corrector if you don't think double-evade protects against it.

Naw, just lazy example-work. I knew it when I was typing it, but figured I'd try to slip it past.

4 hours ago, kris40k said:

I think an important question is that "if TLT was removed, would the boogeymen it was designed to prevent come back?"

I mean, wouldn't Fat Han get ripped apart by the high amount of 4 and 5 die modified attacks we have running around today and all the newer stuff?

Does the game need TLT anymore?

If "no", would removing it be a QOL increase?

Well, I think a range 2-3 turret is necessary for the game, but I don't think it has to be TLT. I wouldn't mind some sort of radical nerf, whereby you only get the second shot under some limited circumstance. However, I'd like if they also added a turret, range 2-3, 3 dice. If this attack hits, cancel all but one hit or crit result. Does that seem fair at 3 points (same as Dorsal)? Does it need to be 4? Anyhow, something so that you've got a reasonably costed long-range turret.

4 hours ago, phild0 said:

Maybe just change TLT into a single shot 3 dice turret upgrade, range 2-3 still, and no capped damage.

So essentially, let it turn a ship into a PWT. Would that be enough of a nerf?

I'd love to see this in a large Vassal tournament, or in some store's league, or such. I think it'd be worth testing to see if that'd work better.

6 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Fun to use and a challenge to play against. Just try to find ways to beat it. That's what makes squad building so much fun.

3 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

But we don't have time for rational thinking!

Folks can think rationally, many of us just disagree. Ion Cannon Turret is a lot more fun to use, and a more interesting challenge to play against. TLT just throws a lot of dice, with a non-standard mechanic which lends itself to exploitation.

2 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

If it was range 1-2 instead of 2-3, it'd be fine. It's just that the range 2-3 covers so much physical surface area.

I really think it isn't just the area. Is Miranda's low-cost regeneration really fixed by the range alterations? Is the high damage output of a TLT Ghost fixed by it? Meanwhile, it'll be a lot harder to get Autothrusters to trigger against it.

6 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

TLT's issue isn't its raw power. The raw power of it is reasonable at 6 points. It would also be reasonable at 7 points.

TLT just has such weird mechanics that it interacts with more and more cards and turret-carriers to go way beyond its base functionality.

[...]

Basically, TLT is complicated, and as it interacts with an increasingly complicated game, things are getting ugly.

This. I think there's a fair case that TLTs are a little bit stronger than their point cost (why oh why won't FFG just fix point values?!?!), but the bigger issue is that they work in such a different way from normal attacks. Both in a "fun" sense (the lackluster effects of marginal evades, the nigh-guarantee against some ships), and in a game-interactions sense, too.

8 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

So what’s the Pokémon Ghost evolved form then?

This one. (There's an argument to be made that FAA Astromech is better. I don't have a dog in that fight; I think the difference is fairly negligible.)

Lothal Rebel (35)
Sensor Jammer (4)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Ezra Bridger (3)
Maul (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Ghost (0)

"Zeb" Orrelios (18)
"Chopper" (0)
Phantom (0)

Fenn Rau (Sheathipede) (20)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Hotshot Co-pilot (4)
R2 Astromech (1)
Phantom II (0)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Looking at Meta-Wing, I also tend to see Jyn Erso on Kanan, instead of Recon Specialist. With two arcs, that seems reasonable.

21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Looking at Meta-Wing, I also tend to see Jyn Erso on Kanan, instead of Recon Specialist. With two arcs, that seems reasonable.

My personal build has Jyn/Rey (mostly because I don't own RecSpec). Also, as this moves increasingly towards "Is the Ghost OP?", it makes me think that TLT is balanced, but there are too many ridiculously good platforms for it. This is why nerfs take time. You have to identify the root of the problem and then fix THAT. I.E. We nerfed Deadeye and R4 Agromech, but that didn't help because the JM5K's slots were too good. We can't just nerf TLT, we have to identify what ships abuse it and fix those.

The weirdness of TLT could have been avoided if the turret was set up less like Clusters and more like Gunner:

TLT, 6 pt Turret upgrade

att 3, rng 2-3

attack one Target, even outside of your firing arc.

if this attack misses you may perform a second attack with this weapon on the same target. You cannot perform any more attacks this round.

Would this be more powerful than what we have now? Should this alternate TLT be range 1-2? Att 2?

i guess all this is moot anyway. If a nerf is coming it will probably be in the form of [focus] or [TL], like Synced.

5 hours ago, SabineKey said:

But it doesn't take the chance factor away. You are still rolling dice. You even said that yourself. And if you are rolling dice, there is _no_ guaranties. Heck, even with full mods, a shot can completely whiff. I've seen it happen. I've been on both ends of it.

There is such a thing as auto damage, but the TLT isn't part of that. I'm not arguing that it isn't strong, but this talk of guaranteed damage is factually wrong. It might have better odds than other attacks, but that doesn't mean it doesn't still rely on chance, nor that it doesn't pay a price.

Alright, fair enough. But it's still very high chance dicerolling.

19 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Alright, fair enough. But it's still very high chance dicerolling.

That's true and there are good cases against that.

4 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

TLT, 6 pt Turret upgrade

att 3, rng 2-3

attack one Target, even outside of your firing arc.

if this attack misses you may perform a second attack with this weapon on the same target. You cannot perform any more attacks this round.

Would this be more powerful than what we have now? Should this alternate TLT be range 1-2? Att 2?

i guess all this is moot anyway. If a nerf is coming it will probably be in the form of [focus] or [TL], like Synced.

TLTs were built to deal with Fat Falcons that had a once-per-turn 3po, a once-per-turn evade token, and a once-per-turn R2-D2 regen. This turret does nothing to solve that problem. They will literally never get ahead of the damage mitigation. TLTs were made to to push through all those once-per-turns. There are a lot of "solutions" in this thread that just lead back to Evade-3PO-R2D2 Falcons.

9 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

If it was range 1-2 instead of 2-3, it'd be fine. It's just that the range 2-3 covers so much physical surface area.

Agreed. You'll note it's the only unlimited ammo, out-of-arc, range 3 secondary weapon in the game.

10 hours ago, SabineKey said:

But it doesn't take the chance factor away. You are still rolling dice. You even said that yourself. And if you are rolling dice, there is _no_ guaranties. Heck, even with full mods, a shot can completely whiff. I've seen it happen. I've been on both ends of it.

For the sake of argument; accuracy corrector.

Is the Twin Laser Turret broken beyond redemption? I'd say no. Compare a TLT-armed Flight Assist/Unhinged Y-wing or a TLT-armed Lightweight Frame Aggressor. They're a challenge to face, but far from an invincible one, and one or two as filler in a squad are usually a better choice than spamming four and going "oh, bugger, it's a ship with autothrusters".

Nor are plasma torpedoes, or bomblet generator.

I agree with @Gilarius: Really broken stuff in X-wing invariably is a more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts thing.

• The Jumpmaster having torpedoes wasn't the problem. It having Torpedoes and Deadeye and Overclocked R4 and a good enough dial to be happy using Overclocked R4 and and and was a problem. Add in native PS9 and an incredibly powerful pilot ability on Dengar.
• Miranda's pilot ability is powerful but it does mostly neuter the attack....but giving her a 'spare' attack at the same time was daft. SLAM is good for a bomber but it only becomes amazing paired with a high native PS - that she has. As the rebels' premier bomb-lobber I don't really object to her having bomblet generator, but of course she can (inevitably) carry sabine, and with missiles she can joust too.
• Ditto the ghost, ditto nym. It's almost invariably the ships with huge upgrade bars stacked with a stronger than normal pilot ability
  • Note that when I say 'huge upgrade bar' I mean of actual upgrades. The TIE punisher, for example, has space for lots of one-use ammo, but essentially just has system/modification/bombs/ordnance - having torpedo and missile slots is good but no matter how many you have, adding more doesn't really give you anything the way adding a tech slot would

1 hour ago, skotothalamos said:

TLTs were built to deal with Fat Falcons that had a once-per-turn 3po, a once-per-turn evade token, and a once-per-turn R2-D2 regen. This turret does nothing to solve that problem. They will literally never get ahead of the damage mitigation. TLTs were made to to push through all those once-per-turns. There are a lot of "solutions" in this thread that just lead back to Evade-3PO-R2D2 Falcons.

Thing is, with Kanan/Fenn, you now have a point fortress with a stack of once-per-turn tricks which has appropriated and weaponised what was supposed to be the counter to that sort of list...

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

TLTs were built to deal with Fat Falcons that had a once-per-turn 3po, a once-per-turn evade token, and a once-per-turn R2-D2 regen. This turret does nothing to solve that problem. They will literally never get ahead of the damage mitigation. TLTs were made to to push through all those once-per-turns. There are a lot of "solutions" in this thread that just lead back to Evade-3PO-R2D2 Falcons.

I feel that an adjustment to Target Lock Tokens TLT would probably be good, although it is not as urgent as many people here like to claim. However, it is important to remember that, as @skotothalamos said, The TLT is the solution to a past X-Wing's OP lists: Fat Turrets with damage mitigation. Therefore any adjustment made to TLT must not affect its ability to perform it's original task, otherwise, with it no longer functioning as gatekeeper of previous OP-ness, we would be plunged back into just as much mess (probably more than) as we have now.*

The best proposed errata to this weapon (the TLT) should thus move the target ship class to be more exclusively that which it was aimed at to start with - Ships that rely on the opponent's red dice to dodge shots more than their greens. With this in mind, I think that current nerf proposals can be grouped into three main categories:

1. Those that would decrease the overall power of the Twin Laser Turret, eg: green die at R3, Atk 2, R1-2 only, etc.. These would reduce the amount of TLT's seeing play, but they would also reduce its power over other, less congenial threats, like Fat Hans. One commonly stated good effect of this would be a slight increase in Arc dodgers, but it would be small, and there are better ways to get the same effect.
2. Those that limit, decrease or otherwise change the TLT's abilities in a way that does not target the core issues, or changes how it works in an unpredictable manner, eg: Attack[Target Lock], Three attacks of Atk 2, gunner effect rather than auto 2nd shot, small only, etc.. Some of these these may have significant merit, but in many cases it would be impossible to predict what the change would do to the game, others would clearly amplify the problem instead of helping it, and a few of these suggestions seem to simply be changing how the card works for the fun of it.
3. Those that change the card in a way that specifically targets the original prey of the card, while lessening its potency toward unintended targets, eg: Subtract red dice from Atk value equal to the defender's agility, only attack twice if first attack hits, have different effects for large and small base defending, etc.. This is the optimal category from which to choose a 'nerf', and although these can approach the problem from many angles, they all focus on shifting the heat to low agility ships (which tend to be point fortresses).

My personal favourite change (if any) would be to make a second attack only if the first hits. However, there are indubitably many other good ideas out there, some that may not yet have been thought of yet.

The TLT is one of the most important upgrades with respect to the current balance of the game at the present time, and so any change should only be made if absolutely necessary, and it will inevitably unleash huge upturn on the meta.

Disclaimers:

I haven't studied the game all that much, so I could be barking up the complete wrong tree (I hope not). If so, please let me know.

*It is actually very difficult to say what would happen to the game balance if TLT were removed/Nerfed into oblivion, but it is certain that the current (quite good, comparatively) balance would be utterly lost.

7 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

This one. (There's an argument to be made that FAA Astromech is better. I don't have a dog in that fight; I think the difference is fairly negligible.)

Lothal Rebel (35)
Sensor Jammer (4)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Ezra Bridger (3)
Maul (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Ghost (0)

"Zeb" Orrelios (18)
"Chopper" (0)
Phantom (0)

Fenn Rau (Sheathipede) (20)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Hotshot Co-pilot (4)
R2 Astromech (1)
Phantom II (0)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I agree, this one has the potential to make your day really miserable, more so than the other ghost variants I have played against recently.

I have watched the Kann / Rey / Jyn build and discussed with the guy playing it, haven't played against it yet, but I feel the raw power of Ezra / Maul is stronger on those four TLT shots is better. Action wise it's a no brainer, will evade 90% (unless need a boost that Fenn cannot give or have a point blank primary)

4 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

TLTs were built to deal with Fat Falcons that had a once-per-turn 3po, a once-per-turn evade token, and a once-per-turn R2-D2 regen. This turret does nothing to solve that problem. They will literally never get ahead of the damage mitigation. TLTs were made to to push through all those once-per-turns. There are a lot of "solutions" in this thread that just lead back to Evade-3PO-R2D2 Falcons.

That's not really a valid argument at this stage, as we're well past the old Wave 5 meta now. As @kris40k correctly pointed out earlier in the thread, the problem of Fat Falcons no longer really exists, as there are ample tools in the game now to deal with that particular archetype even without using TLT as a crutch.

And as pointed out in the OP, while the TLT was (probably) designed to help players deal with Fat Han, it's uses go far beyond that particular role, to the extent that it's a key part of many tier one lists to this day. We're (probably) at the stage where TLT is causing more issues than it solves, although there's also an argument that we've been at that stage since it's release.

14 hours ago, kris40k said:

I think an important question is that "if TLT was removed, would the boogeymen it was designed to prevent come back?"

I mean, wouldn't Fat Han get ripped apart by the high amount of 4 and 5 die modified attacks we have running around today and all the newer stuff?

Does the game need TLT anymore?

If "no", would removing it be a QOL increase?

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Agreed. You'll note it's the only unlimited ammo, out-of-arc, range 3 secondary weapon in the game.

Dash says hi (although he pays a premium for the ability, and is unique, and creates his own set of problems...)

I've said this a few times now as this keeps coming up;

TLT is a problem that gets worse with multiples 1x is fine, 2x annoying, 3x enough!, 4x FML.

The simple solution; make TLT unique (Stops Multiples); and add one line to the end; After performing this attack assign a weapons disabled token to this ship. (Stops Ghost, spamming).

TLT remains good; as it needs to be there to tackle some problems it was invented to counter, and you don't need to change the Ghost as it's a really good ship; and fun to fly.

Short answer: It is fine.

If the issue is that TLT's problem is too complex, then NERF IT into simplicity.

2 hours ago, Infinite_Maelstrom said:

I feel that an adjustment to Target Lock Tokens TLT would probably be good, although it is not as urgent as many people here like to claim. However, it is important to remember that, as @skotothalamos said, The TLT is the solution to a past X-Wing's OP lists: Fat Turrets with damage mitigation. Therefore any adjustment made to TLT must not affect its ability to perform it's original task, otherwise, with it no longer functioning as gatekeeper of previous OP-ness, we would be plunged back into just as much mess (probably more than) as we have now.*

The best proposed errata to this weapon (the TLT) should thus move the target ship class to be more exclusively that which it was aimed at to start with - Ships that rely on the opponent's red dice to dodge shots more than their greens. With this in mind, I think that current nerf proposals can be grouped into three main categories:

1. Those that would decrease the overall power of the Twin Laser Turret, eg: green die at R3, Atk 2, R1-2 only, etc.. These would reduce the amount of TLT's seeing play, but they would also reduce its power over other, less congenial threats, like Fat Hans. One commonly stated good effect of this would be a slight increase in Arc dodgers, but it would be small, and there are better ways to get the same effect.
2. Those that limit, decrease or otherwise change the TLT's abilities in a way that does not target the core issues, or changes how it works in an unpredictable manner, eg: Attack[Target Lock], Three attacks of Atk 2, gunner effect rather than auto 2nd shot, small only, etc.. Some of these these may have significant merit, but in many cases it would be impossible to predict what the change would do to the game, others would clearly amplify the problem instead of helping it, and a few of these suggestions seem to simply be changing how the card works for the fun of it.
3. Those that change the card in a way that specifically targets the original prey of the card, while lessening its potency toward unintended targets, eg: Subtract red dice from Atk value equal to the defender's agility, only attack twice if first attack hits, have different effects for large and small base defending, etc.. This is the optimal category from which to choose a 'nerf', and although these can approach the problem from many angles, they all focus on shifting the heat to low agility ships (which tend to be point fortresses).

It targets its original preys, it doesn't target unintended preys. It is strong against some ships, weak against others.

Now Miranda needs to choose between regenerating and most likely missing, or not regenerating and landing a hit for 1 damage.
Ships like JM5K, Ghost, Shadowcaster, Fat Han etc are still weak versus this.
Ships like B-wings, G-1A, Interceptors, etc are no longer murdered by this.

Also, it no longer is the best secondary turret in all possible situations. 4xTLT would have a puny damage output versus an all-small squad. So nobody would risk spamming it as much.
Besides, it would make even sense lorewise. A turret quickly firing at long range would more likely hit multiple times larger targets than smaller targets.

17 hours ago, SabineKey said:

As someone who has used them quite a bit (primarily on HWKs), I can tell you that the damage isn't as consistent as some of the detractors claim. Oh, it's good, but take it from me, it is not exempt from completely whiffing on a target.

That said, my experience with the upgrade is mostly with HWKs and Y-Wings, with a max of two (partly because I only have one K-Wing and partly because I like to have other things in my list. You want to tone it down, make it HWK only. That'll do it for ya.

I have seen them miss a Palp shuttle consistantly and I have lost Soontir Fel in a single turn to them. So yeah, there is a little dice variance there, but in general the defining trait of TLT is to feel bad and to be consistent. Either they are boring and deal their consistent 1 damage per shot or they feel bad to either the attacker or defender by being outrageous inconstante. Missing agility one targets is enraging and so is getting hit by them when you have 3 dice, a full token stack and autothrusters. It still happens "all the time".

The issue with the Ghost is btw simply because you get two for the price of one. Imagine if they would introduce a heavy laser cannon turret for large base ships. 4 dice, range 2-3, 9 points. And the ghost gets to shoot with it twice per turn for those 9 points.
Or a turbolaser turret for 10 points, etc ;-)

It's just more noticeable with the TLT because that is the most expensive turret the ghost can currently take. And btw, if Nymrande would still be a thing, just using a ion turret would be hilarious ;-)

28 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Dash says hi (although he pays a premium for the ability, and is unique, and creates his own set of problems...)

It's the outrider title, even pilots who are not dash are great with that 13 point heavy laser turret. Now imagine the ghost could pay 13 points to take it. ;-)

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

For the sake of argument; accuracy corrector.

Yeah, but Accuracy Corrector does that to everything.

10 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

TLTs were built to deal with Fat Falcons that had a once-per-turn 3po, a once-per-turn evade token, and a once-per-turn R2-D2 regen. This turret does nothing to solve that problem. They will literally never get ahead of the damage mitigation. TLTs were made to to push through all those once-per-turns. There are a lot of "solutions" in this thread that just lead back to Evade-3PO-R2D2 Falcons.

Yeah I don’t see how TLT stops those once per turn thangs on a Falcon. I mean 3po and evade probably stop one TLT shot and R2 will regen the other shot. Spamming TLT will mean six more shots that round for 5-6 damage total, or you could pack in a TIE swarm, even a crack swarm, and do the same or more damage even if you lost one TIE before attacking, not to mention possible crits.

The MOV ‘nerf’ was designed to counter the Falcon point fortress.

I’m pretty sure the TLT was designed to counter token stackers like Soontir while Chimps were designed to make ordnance spike damage the answer to regen. Unfortunately the K-wing and sons have coop’d TLT and ordnance (including bombs) to make make things much worse than having an iconic Falcon and droids build being top tier.

10 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

TLTs were built to deal with Fat Falcons that had a once-per-turn 3po, a once-per-turn evade token, and a once-per-turn R2-D2 regen. This turret does nothing to solve that problem. They will literally never get ahead of the damage mitigation. TLTs were made to to push through all those once-per-turns. There are a lot of "solutions" in this thread that just lead back to Evade-3PO-R2D2 Falcons.

Yeah I don’t see how TLT stops those once per turn thangs on a Falcon. I mean 3po and evade probably stop one TLT shot and R2 will regen the other shot. Spamming TLT will mean six more shots that round for 5-6 damage total, or you could pack in a TIE swarm, even a crack swarm, and do the same or more damage even if you lost one TIE before attacking, not to mention possible crits.

The MOV ‘nerf’ was designed to counter the Falcon point fortress.

I’m pretty sure the TLT was designed to counter token stackers like Soontir while Chimps were designed to make ordnance spike damage the answer to regen. Unfortunately the K-wing and sons have coop’d TLT and ordnance (including bombs) to make make things much worse than having an iconic Falcon and droids build being top tier.

6 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

It's the outrider title, even pilots who are not dash are great with that 13 point heavy laser turret. Now imagine the ghost could pay 13 points to take it. ;-)

8 pt range 1-3 Ion cannon turret baby! Almost as awesome as 6 pt tractor beam turret!