1 minute ago, Makaze said:

Hence why I specifically stated "within 1%"

But it's still not zero.

13 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But it's still not zero.

Might as well be with how consistent it is. The problem is, TLT is too much better than other turrets for the cost. So, is the problem that TLT is too good or that other turrets are too "meh?"

More of a @MajorJuggler question, but IIRC TLT has been underpriced by 1-2 points from release.

Upping the price doesn’t fix everything (IMO Miranda’s ability should be primary weapon only), but certainly helps balance.

A different approach that doesn’t require card errata is to errata the primary rules and require all turrets and cannons to add the additional green die at range 3 (which makes sense to me since they are manually aimed ballistic/laser weapons, not guided munitions like torpedoes and missiles).

2 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

So, is the problem that TLT is too good or that other turrets are too "meh?"

Both. TLT is too good due to the combination of consistency, odd rules interactions, secondary weapon status preventing an extra R3 green, and oh yeah being literally the only turret that can shoot at R3 at all. Other turrets are meh, not just compared with TLT but also in comparison to an equivalent ship with a PWT rather than turret slot. That's in large part due to the lack of R3 on any of them

But other turrets being meh only negatively effects a handful of ships, whereas TLT being too good negatively effects all other ships

21 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But it's still not zero.

I honestly haven't seen a TLT shot miss this year. Small sample size, but it is virtually unheard of to miss with a TLT completely. It might as well just read "Lets save everyone some time, and not bump any ships with dice. Assign 2 damage to anyone within range 2-3".

If it was range 1-2 instead of 2-3, it'd be fine. It's just that the range 2-3 covers so much physical surface area.

13 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

I honestly haven't seen a TLT shot miss this year. Small sample size, but it is virtually unheard of to miss with a TLT completely. It might as well just read "Lets save everyone some time, and not bump any ships with dice. Assign 2 damage to anyone within range 2-3".

I take it there arent many players in your area that use small base ships with arcs?

1 minute ago, Npmartian said:

Might as well be with how consistent it is. The problem is, TLT is too much better than other turrets for the cost. So, is the problem that TLT is too good or that other turrets are too "meh?"

I think when making a case, using exact numbers is more honest than rounding. If after you see the actual numbers and think "might as well be zero", that's up to you. Just so long as you are making an informed decision.

I personally believe it is a mix, though lean to the "other turrets are too meh" side. The TLT is definitely strong, but I think one of its primary points over the other turrets is its range increment. It has a larger danger zone than the others, which is a huge help. From a HWK pilot's point of view, that means I can better keep my somewhat fragile frame out of the direct fight as opposed to the 1-2 turrets. Then we have some poor firing requirements (blaster turret), lackluster effectiveness against part of the field (ion turrets vs big base ships) and we have why the oldest turrets aren't doing well. That leaves auto, dorsal, and synced. Auto has actually seen some okay use over the years, though it seems to be more a defensive piece than offensive (accept for maybe Ghosts). Dorsal is alright, but that lack of range three hurts. It's basically a 2 att PWT without range three for three points, which isn't great. That leaves synced, which I quite like and need to get back to playing around with, but the range increment and token requirement can be hard to swallow when considering what Turret to take.

10 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

I honestly haven't seen a TLT shot miss this year. Small sample size, but it is virtually unheard of to miss with a TLT completely. It might as well just read "Lets save everyone some time, and not bump any ships with dice. Assign 2 damage to anyone within range 2-3".

As I have said, I'm speaking as someone who has used them a lot. Trust me when I say I've seen them whiff quite a bit. Now, in full transparency, that's on primarily on HWKs, Y-Wings, and Aggressors. I haven't played much with Miranda, but seen her enough to see her whiff.

too reliable to be a turret, thats the big problem imo.

If it was a cannon with that effect i doubt anyone would complain about it, even if it was a 4-5pt card instead.

The other turrets are heavily limited, none of them are R3 capable and most have some other restriction (or damage cap). TLT hits more often, hits further away, and does more damage than any other turret.

11 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

As I have said, I'm speaking as someone who has used them a lot. Trust me when I say I've seen them whiff quite a bit. Now, in full transparency, that's on primarily on HWKs, Y-Wings, and Aggressors. I haven't played much with Miranda, but seen her enough to see her whiff.

I think the issue is that they're so much more consistent than a PWT because they don't care about range. Not only is 2-3 a huge physical area of the board to cover, but also denying that range 3 bonus agility dice is HUGE.

Honestly, I think if they were Range 1-2 they would be perfect.

2 hours ago, kris40k said:

I think an important question is that "if TLT was removed, would the boogeymen it was designed to prevent come back?"

I mean, wouldn't Fat Han get ripped apart by the high amount of 4 and 5 die modified attacks we have running around today and all the newer stuff?

Does the game need TLT anymore?

If "no", would removing it be a QOL increase?

For me the question really is; why are there bogeymen? Why does game design introduce bogeymen and introduce upgrade cards to suppress them?

I get what you’re saying; I really do. But in a balanced environment; there would only be bogeymen against certain lists/builds/archetypes. Which would in turn; have their own bogeymen.

The simple fact we have cards that supress bad stuff from earlier waves is bad design.

All this said; I love x-wing! Just... why?

4 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

I think the issue is that they're so much more consistent than a PWT because they don't care about range. Not only is 2-3 a huge physical area of the board to cover, but also denying that range 3 bonus agility dice is HUGE.

Honestly, I think if they were Range 1-2 they would be perfect.

I actually disagree. TLTs care vitality about range as they have a donut hole. They _must_ be out of range one to hope to do any damage. Now, let's look at PWTs. As long as you are within range three (and not bumping), they can shoot you. They may not like range three that much, but they still get to shoot, which still works out way better for the PWT than the TLT carrier and range one. I honestly believe a TLT ship cares more about range then a PWT. Now, I am actually on board with @Hawkstrike's suggestion of giving range three extra dice to those defending against turrets and cannons. It solves the point you made and keeps the TLT in the role that I think should be around, which is as the long range Turret.

41 minutes ago, Makaze said:

But other turrets being meh only negatively effects a handful of ships, whereas TLT being too good negatively effects all other ships

This logic..

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I actually disagree. TLTs care vitality about range as they have a donut hole.

Only on the most powerful TLT ships being in the donut hole means nothing. Miranda will just PWT you for 4 dice in the face, and Nym will just bomb you into the next century (or 4 dice primary you if you're in arc), same with the Ghost (5 Dice primary forward and back). Yeah the donut matters on Y-Wings, but who cares, that's not who is abusing TLTs.

Just now, Favoritism Flight Games said:

Only on the most powerful TLT ships being in the donut hole means nothing. Miranda will just PWT you for 4 dice in the face, and Nym will just bomb you into the next century (or 4 dice primary you if you're in arc), same with the Ghost (5 Dice primary forward and back). Yeah the donut matters on Y-Wings, but who cares, that's not who is abusing TLTs.

True, Miranda and Nym can compensate for the TLT's range problem, but I count those more as problems with the pilot's themselves than the upgrade card. Ghosts actually do have to worry about the donut hole as it has two blind spots (so...pie holes?).

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

But other turrets being meh only negatively effects a handful of ships, whereas TLT being too good negatively effects all other ships

What ships exactly does TLT suppress whose return would be good for the game ?

It might be too drastic of a nerf, but I'd make TLT Attack: Target Lock. It makes it a much harder turret to use every turn and also will help cripple its consistent damage output.

I'm curious if this would make TLT more manageable?

Perform this attack twice. If both attacks hit, the defender suffers 2 damage, otherwise cancel all dice results.

1 minute ago, LordBlades said:

What ships exactly does TLT suppress whose return would be good for the game ?

At the moment? Literally everything that's not a VCX or associated shuttle... *rimshot*

But in all seriousness I meant it in a generalized sense that TLTs making otherwise meh ships like the Y-Wing or HWK passingly maybe OKish is not worth the price of having monsters like Miranda or Ghost/Fenn abuse its mechanics. It's not that they're driving any specific ship or archetype out of the game, although there would be a serious meta shake up if TLT is nerfed, and more that they are the objectively correct answer in most cases since TLT and its interactions being undercosted makes them effectively undercosted when compared to other ships. Thus negatively impacting the relative value of all other ships.

57 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

Only on the most powerful TLT ships being in the donut hole means nothing. Miranda will just PWT you for 4 dice in the face, and Nym will just bomb you into the next century (or 4 dice primary you if you're in arc), same with the Ghost (5 Dice primary forward and back). Yeah the donut matters on Y-Wings, but who cares, that's not who is abusing TLTs.

50 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

True, Miranda and Nym can compensate for the TLT's range problem, but I count those more as problems with the pilot's themselves than the upgrade card. Ghosts actually do have to worry about the donut hole as it has two blind spots (so...pie holes?).

I'll use these quotes to start to explain my initial post, back on page 1.

There are 2 ships that are too powerful (in my opinion) when using TLT, plus a 3rd with other problems (the Scurrg has too many build options, all of them good): Miranda and any Ghost.

Miranda can consistently do damage (usually only one point, but sometimes two) whilst also being able to regenerate. Other regenerating ships can be arc-dodged, or killed easier, so they don't consistently do damage as well. R2D2 restricts movement, R5P9 needs actions and Hotshot Copilot or Palob (any others?) can remove the focus. This is why I'd restrict her ability to primary only - if TLT isn't nerfed. She still dies to focussed fire, sometimes very quickly, but in conjuction with either damage mitigating lists (Low, Biggs pre-nerf, etc) or high damage output lists (Nym plus bombs), she can dominate tournaments.

The other ship is the Ghost (not just a VCX). Doing 4 damage almost every turn is far more damage than most ships can manage. This still wasn't a major problem until Fenn Rau in the Sheathipede came along to complicate matters. Fenn stops a lot of the opponent's attacks from actually damaging the Ghost, so the damage race between the Ghost and the opponent's ships has become heavily weighted in favour of the Ghost.

If the Ghost has Engine Upgrade, it can be co-ordinated to avoid that range 1 half-donut hole; one of the attacker's ships can't use any tokens (Fenn's ability), doing significantly less damage, and if the Ghost has Sensor Jammer, that's effectively an extra evade for the Ghost - along with it's own evade action, plus a saved rey-focus for Kanan to reduce a different (probably) attacker's dice too. A normal 3 dice attack is quite likely to do no damage at all. There's a reason everyone wants dice modifications to push damage through!

Yes, it's an expensive ship; no, it's very hard to match its damage output even with an entire list. Killing Fenn first is key, but that puts you so far behind in the damage race, that it's very hard to win. Not impossible, just very hard.

Poe Dameron with regen, and autothrusters has the best chance (I think) of succeeding whilst still being very effective against other lists. But that's one pilot, out of an enormous number! Expertise Rey might work better here, but loses to more other things than the Ghost/Fenn does.

23 minutes ago, bydand said:

I'm curious if this would make TLT more manageable?

Perform this attack twice. If both attacks hit, the defender suffers 2 damage, otherwise cancel all dice results.

Manageable? Yes, but I think it is too much. While not an option I'm too hot on, the suggestion of the first shot needing to hit for the second to fire is better. The full damage is still based on their own rolls, but more emphasis is placed on the first shot.

8 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

Poe Dameron with regen, and autothrusters has the best chance (I think) of succeeding whilst still being very effective against other lists.

Against Maul/Ezra, Poe is on a two- or maybe three-turn clock. Autothrusters helps, but since he only has two green dice -- and no mods for them -- it does not help very much. Remember, with boost, the Ghost can easily keep up with Poe.

For those of you who think you understand this list, but haven't played it (and against it) for yourself, please do. You almost certainly still don't understand how powerful it is. You may even realize it's really good, but -- if you're anything like I was -- you still don't really understand how powerful it is.

To fix TLT add in R3 defense bonus.

To fix Ghost, just change it so that the end of the round shot has to be from the turret that the Phantom has equipped.

I really don't think TLTs need nerfed. They are still the same as they were back in wave 7, and a lot worse of combos have come and gone. I really hate this "Wack-a-Nerf." People are complaining about list which would have been B or even C lists a year ago.

That being said, if they were to be nerfed I would suggest something like this at the end of the text:

"If you hit your opponent during an attack, roll one less attack dice until the end of the round, to a minimum of 1."

34 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Against Maul/Ezra, Poe is on a two- or maybe three-turn clock. Autothrusters helps, but since he only has two green dice -- and no mods for them -- it does not help very much. Remember, with boost, the Ghost can easily keep up with Poe.

For those of you who think you understand this list, but haven't played it (and against it) for yourself, please do. You almost certainly still don't understand how powerful it is. You may even realize it's really good, but -- if you're anything like I was -- you still don't really understand how powerful it is.

The version that I've played against had Rey and Recon Specialist. And mostly spent the focus tokens on reducing my attacks. Poe would have won, if I'd been flying him.

Is any pilot better than Poe? (Given that there are other lists around, still.)

24 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

To fix TLT add in R3 defense bonus.

To fix Ghost, just change it so that the end of the round shot has to be from the turret that the Phantom has equipped.

I like either or both of these.