4 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

I haven’t played against a well flown one. I went 4-2 at the Atlanta regional last week, and only caught a weird synced turret version in the final Swiss round.

I believe if you can keep up the damage race, while stopping just 2 of the tlt shots you have a chance. I aim to find out in Nashville this weekend.

It's very hard to keep up the damage race against different versions of the list for a lot of different reasons (which is, of course, what makes it good). The VCX+Fenn version is doing a lot of things to lower both your offense and defense all at the same time (while Kanaan is just more direct about it). Fenn cuts down on the offense of two ships and the defense of one of those. SJ is hurting either your offense or defense so it's easier for those TLTs to land.

6 hours ago, nikk whyte said:

I believe if you can keep up the damage race, while stopping just 2 of the tlt shots you have a chance. I aim to find out in Nashville this weekend.

Cool, good luck! Here’s hoping you play 6 of them in a row and come back with a new perpective

2 hours ago, the1hodgy said:

It's a simple fix for the TLT on the Ghost. just add, "Then assign a weapons disabled token to this ship" the ghost will then have to move for arc for a primary weapon shot and the use TLT in end phase.

Doesn't change how the TLT functions and means it can be out played and you don't eat 4 TLT a round.

This is actually a 'nerf' that sounds very reasonable to my ears... IMHO in neither a fan nor hater of the TLT but if they are gonna nerf it, do it like this...

Ya except 4 Y-WINGS with TLT absolutely crush Kanan/Fenn, unlike Nymranda.

10 minutes ago, sozin said:

Cool, good luck! Here’s hoping you play 6 of them in a row and come back with a new perpective

Trust me, I personally watched Andrew Nuckols accuracy correct his way to victory all day, and all through the cut. I have an idea how to fight it, just gotta put it into practice.

Regen.

Miranda technically is less powerful than a Ghost, but she doesnt freakin' die unless you absolutely nuke her. If it wasnt for TLT being 2 attacks she wouldnt be that big of an issue, just a really annoying one since ANY regen can potentially be the reason you didnt win with the last shot.

Ghosts explode rather easily, even if its a focus-stacked kanan. Its one of the few ships where sheer volume of attacks, not volume of dice, beat it up faster than heavy hits.

Not saying a proper list with a Ghost isnt a problem, its definitely proved i can be a lethal force, but it has several massively vulnerable weaknesses. Miranym did not other than sheer luck.

2 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Regen.

Miranda technically is less powerful than a Ghost, but she doesnt freakin' die unless you absolutely nuke her. If it wasnt for TLT being 2 attacks she wouldnt be that big of an issue, just a really annoying one since ANY regen can potentially be the reason you didnt win with the last shot.

Ghosts explode rather easily, even if its a focus-stacked kanan. Its one of the few ships where sheer volume of attacks, not volume of dice, beat it up faster than heavy hits.

Not saying a proper list with a Ghost isnt a problem, its definitely proved i can be a lethal force, but it has several massively vulnerable weaknesses. Miranym did not other than sheer luck.

Miranda dies in two rounds, maybe three to this list. She can't outdamage it.

I lost the damage race last night in league night to the Ghost wth Miranda. It was close but felt like I was on the wrong side of the equation. Four tlt hits a round on her and only one regen makes it really hard.

Just a thought, but would it be overkill if the attack shuttle's Phantom title card was changed to require the end of round turret to be equipped to the Attack shuttle and not just to the ghost.

So it could read:

While you are docked, the Ghost can perform primary weapon attacks from its special firing arc, and, at the end of the Combat phase, it may perform an additional attack with a (Turret) equipped to the Phantom . If it performs this attack, it cannot attack again this round.

That way if a ghost wanted to perform four TLT attacks per round they'd have to spend 12 points instead of just 6. That would make it a bit harder to fit everything desired into the builds.

For Miranda, what if her ability only applied to her primary attack? Forcing her to choose between TLT shots or regening? (maybe she doesn't care either way...)

34 minutes ago, sozin said:

Cool, good luck! Here’s hoping you play 6 of them in a row and come back with a new perpective

I had 4 out of 8 games

2 minutes ago, sozin said:

I lost the damage race last night in league night to the Ghost wth Miranda. It was close but felt like I was on the wrong side of the equation. Four tlt hits a round on her and only one regen makes it really hard.

The real abuse comes from the primary.

1st exchange - TLT Miranda's shields off.

2nd exhange - Move ghost. Let miranda move. Move fenn and coorindate ghost for boost to get primary on Miranda. Miranda attacks, regens 1 shield. Ghost attacks with primary and is probably punching 2 hits and a crit through with Maul + ezra. Hopefully the crit isn't a direct hit. Then follows up with TLT again. She's maybe at 1-2 health. That's a dead Miranda next round assuming Fenn hasn't touched her at all.

Now you probably have Dash or Nym out there trying to lay down some pain as well but Fenn is probably trying to shut down their offense.

It's just a list that abuses many 2 ship builds.

That is a good point @viedit and very similar to how I lost my game last night - a good primary shot from the ghost after some softening up from the tilt.

15 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I honestly think the Ezra/Maul Fenn-Ghost is going to be so prevalent and successful that FFG will finally nerf TLT. (Note that I'm making no statement on my own feelings about whether TLT needs nerfing.) It is an amazing list, on par with Dengaroo. People can just pick it up and fly it, assuming they know the interactions, and do well ... and once they know how to protect Fenn, it's an absolute monster.

Yeah, it seems the TLT-effect continues, pushing the top list. TLT is simply mathematically and geometrically OP.

9 hours ago, sozin said:

@nikk whyte

- traj sim was unique in that you could take ships off the board, before any engagement, without shooting at them. The community immediately realized that this was pretty terrible NPE and justifiably went nuts.

- ghost Fenn is a different critter altogether, but it’s central mechanic — the quad tlt shot combined with Fenn’s amazing ability - really does illustrate how incredible TLT is on a big base ship that can shoot it multiple times a round and act at ps11. To quote Dee, it is abusive. And yeah people have been calling for a tlt nerf for 6 waves now, and Fenn Ghost is an excellent illustration as to why.

Dee is corect, as are you. Fenn is nuts sure, but a boosting, PS11 Ghost stacking focus with TLT to boot, goodness.

31 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Ghosts explode rather easily, even if its a focus-stacked kanan. Its one of the few ships where sheer volume of attacks, not volume of dice, beat it up faster than heavy hits.

So TIE Swarms are possibly the answer?

3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

So TIE Swarms are possibly the answer?

Could be a counter yeah. But then ya gotta get past the other good lists that gobble up swarms. Would be great if literally everyone at the tourney ran kanan fenn except you but I don't think it will take off.

2 minutes ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

Could be a counter yeah. But then ya gotta get past the other good lists that gobble up swarms. Would be great if literally everyone at the tourney ran kanan fenn except you but I don't think it will take off.

Yeah....I was oddly, in a small way hopeful, but seriously I was tongue-n-cheek.

1 hour ago, sozin said:

Cool, good luck! Here’s hoping you play 6 of them in a row and come back with a new perpective

Savage

Man I hate this ghost fenn stuff so much

Maul is useless if Ghost has 2 stress stacked on it when it activates each round.

I know everyone says to always kill Fenn first.... but I can't help but wonder if that's a trap. You unload your greatest amount of firepower on Fenn, willingly like he was Biggs, and then you lose a ship from the Ghost. By the time you can finally turn your guns on the Ghost it's too much. But if you focus on the Ghost first, even one ship in the end can take out Fenn.

Or am I wrong?

2 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

I know everyone says to always kill Fenn first.... but I can't help but wonder if that's a trap. You unload your greatest amount of firepower on Fenn, willingly like he was Biggs, and then you lose a ship from the Ghost. By the time you can finally turn your guns on the Ghost it's too much. But if you focus on the Ghost first, even one ship in the end can take out Fenn.

Or am I wrong?

PS11 boosts can ruin that plan. If you can get all the guns on the ghost, sure, that'll probably work, but Fenn's coordinate might have something to say about that.

Just now, miguelj said:

PS11 boosts can ruin that plan. If you can get all the guns on the ghost, sure, that'll probably work, but Fenn's coordinate might have something to say about that.

What if you flew this, and spread all four boats out to where the Ghost can only boost into range 1 of 1 ship? All ships lock onto the Ghost and fire Plasmas the first round. If you fly half-way decent (and not in formation) you should be able to get 3 Plasmas off and probably lose one Boat. The Ghosts shields will be gone after the first round and then you fire Harpoons the next. You should be able to get two harpoons off which should do about 4-10 damage. Maybe with a little luck you don't lose a boat every turn and maybe you get an extra shot off.

Ridiculous or no?

I think double and triple stressing is the key here. Choose one of the two ships and find a way to give them multiple stress and you hobble them enough to give you a fighting chance. Neither Maul or Fenn's abilities work if they're already stressed, so find a crew, torpedo, astromech--whatever upgrade you can--and stress their brains out.

2 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

I know everyone says to always kill Fenn first.... but I can't help but wonder if that's a trap. You unload your greatest amount of firepower on Fenn, willingly like he was Biggs, and then you lose a ship from the Ghost. By the time you can finally turn your guns on the Ghost it's too much. But if you focus on the Ghost first, even one ship in the end can take out Fenn.

Or am I wrong?

You are right and wrong at the same time. Against Kanan you are almost certainly wrong, simply because doing 1 damage per ship you have ... not gonna cut it against a 16 hp ship.
Against lothal rebels at the other hand ... we are talking about two more like 6 damage per turn to the ghost. So the ghost should die realistically in about 4 turns (and you hopefully only losing your second ship in turn 4). That is IF you have a way to get double focus or have expertise or whatever to mitigate the sensor jammer. If the sensor jammer reduces your damage to 1 damage per shot … you absolutely have to clear Fenn first, because he takes away just way to much damage from you.

Now there is a firecontro system / sync turret variant as well, this one might be save to fire at the ghost as well. No idea how to deal with that one for sure.

15 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

Ridiculous or no?

Expected Damage 1.152587890625

Hmm. you, if you are able to get 3 shots you should be able to get rid of the shields with the plasmas. But I doubt that you get a shot at all next turn. The ghost does not care if it ends up in range 1 and has an aft arc which goes for 5 hits at R1. So you most likely will be slamming instead, eating another 4 TLT hits, but getting a shot in round 3. And I am saying a shot intentionally, because in the worst case you have only 1 gunboat left when you finally can start shooting. But even if you get two shots … curtsey to evade tokens, Fenn Rau, Sensor jammer and potentially Kanan on top you are not doing much damage to that Ghost with your harpoons. The damage from the harpoons comes from their ability to fully modify their shot … your expected damage from two harpoons against Fenn / Ghost with Sensor Jammer is about 2. One ship has no focus tokens to use against the sensor jammer, the other hand is just not allowed to use them (nor it's target lock). The target lock of the first ship is compensated by the evade token. If you add Kanan to reduce some dice on top ... yeah, you fire two harpoons and get less than two damage against an agility zero target.

Ridiculous, right?

20 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Expected Damage 1.152587890625

Hmm. you, if you are able to get 3 shots you should be able to get rid of the shields with the plasmas. But I doubt that you get a shot at all next turn. The ghost does not care if it ends up in range 1 and has an aft arc which goes for 5 hits at R1. So you most likely will be slamming instead, eating another 4 TLT hits, but getting a shot in round 3. And I am saying a shot intentionally, because in the worst case you have only 1 gunboat left when you finally can start shooting. But even if you get two shots … curtsey to evade tokens, Fenn Rau, Sensor jammer and potentially Kanan on top you are not doing much damage to that Ghost with your harpoons. The damage from the harpoons comes from their ability to fully modify their shot … your expected damage from two harpoons against Fenn / Ghost with Sensor Jammer is about 2. One ship has no focus tokens to use against the sensor jammer, the other hand is just not allowed to use them (nor it's target lock). The target lock of the first ship is compensated by the evade token. If you add Kanan to reduce some dice on top ... yeah, you fire two harpoons and get less than two damage against an agility zero target.

Ridiculous, right?

Whoa.

26 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

I know everyone says to always kill Fenn first.... but I can't help but wonder if that's a trap. You unload your greatest amount of firepower on Fenn, willingly like he was Biggs, and then you lose a ship from the Ghost. By the time you can finally turn your guns on the Ghost it's too much. But if you focus on the Ghost first, even one ship in the end can take out Fenn.

Or am I wrong?

Depends on the list I think

The issue is that Fenn is neutering your ability to burn down the Ghost by a significant margin. In most builds 1 of your ships gets no modifications at all and 2 of them are effectively rolling one die less due to the combo of SJ and their subsequent inability to rechange the eyeball. If you're running a 2 ship list then even with great dice at R1 you'll at most take off the shields. Whereas those same ships firing at Fenn at least have a chance of doing significant damage if not wiping him off the board with favorable variance.

Different story in a 3-4 ship list or list with expertise, at that point I think yeah the Ghost maybe should be the primary target