10 hours ago, Rouxxor said:I think I get the solution for my next combo turn one. I will explain all after resolving some deckbuilding question I'm asking myself. What is your best score at Black Gate? I will try to beat it :).
50
Need Advice - The Black Gate Opens
I'm currently on a run to attempt to do 69 with combo deck without adjustment for this case :).
Edit: Finally win with 65 tokens. I was able to play as many gildor's consel I want, and to put the same location on the top of the encounter deck with shadow of the past.
Edited by Rouxxor5 hours ago, Rouxxor said:I'm currently on a run to attempt to do 69 with combo deck without adjustment for this case :).
Edit: Finally win with 65 tokens. I was able to play as many gildor's consel I want, and to put the same location on the top of the encounter deck with shadow of the past.
And you also play a Galadrim's greeting each turn?
Sure.
Just did a 73 counters without modification on my combo fellowship ( http://ringsdb.com/fellowship/view/4610) . I Just play Gimli instead of Thorin, and abandoning the 13 dwarf company theme in order to gain 1 counter (but forget to do the other switch to get out the 2 useless dwarf to 2 more useful cards). And of course I haven't play any doomed cards (that was the whole challenge ^^).
I will explain the deck in further post. I'm still changing the decklist four time per day ^^.
5 hours ago, Rouxxor said:Just did a 73 counters without modification on my combo fellowship ( http://ringsdb.com/fellowship/view/4610) . I Just play Gimli instead of Thorin, and abandoning the 13 dwarf company theme in order to gain 1 counter (but forget to do the other switch to get out the 2 useless dwarf to 2 more useful cards). And of course I haven't play any doomed cards (that was the whole challenge ^^).
I will explain the deck in further post. I'm still changing the decklist four time per day ^^.
I'm not sure what strategy your deck uses, but I have a different idea that could probably get 75 tokens.
75 tokens seem hard to achieve. I want to heard about that!
My deck use loop in order to have infinite resources and then replay any card I want.
Same. I think I can get 95 tokens actually.
I'm guessing it is because one of the deck only play Glorfindel and it able to survive after the death of the others decks.
I'm able to win probably 4 tokens by working how to dispatch heroes for making optimal to survive with one deck. Until now it was my combo made for every scenario.
About you I'm suppose you spoke to make a Mono Glorfindel deck surviving after other decks was dead. I'm waiting for knowing how precisely.
Edited by Rouxxor1 hour ago, Rouxxor said:I'm guessing it is because one of the deck only play Glorfindel and it able to survive after the death of the others decks.
I'm able to win probably 4 tokens by working how to dispatch heroes for making optimal to survive with one deck. Until now it was my combo made for every scenario.
About you I'm suppose you spoke to make a Mono Glorfindel deck surviving after other decks was dead. I'm waiting for knowing how precisely.
Once you generate infinite resources you pass them to the Glorfindel deck with Parting Gifts. Then the other decks kill themselves off with Justice Shall Be Done and the Glorfindel deck can do what it wants. With infinite resources it is easy to beat any scenario.
Of course. My only concern is: how do you generate those infinite resource on the first place? The only loop I got include 13 dwarf heroes. Hard to put a Glorfindel hero as a single hero for a deck.
So, how do you do that?
11 hours ago, Rouxxor said:Of course. My only concern is: how do you generate those infinite resource on the first place? The only loop I got include 13 dwarf heroes. Hard to put a Glorfindel hero as a single hero for a deck.
So, how do you do that?
I have not spent any time optimizing or testing this, but the details are described here:
https://ringsdb.com/fellowship/view/4619
The idea can be summarized: Set up a deck with 5 dwarf heroes that can draw for free. Then you can make a profitable loop with We Are Not Idle and Burst into Song. Do you see any problems with it?
Wow, you should time these to release immediately after each errata so as to maximize legality.
Seriously, though, is the next infinite loop deck that can consistently beat every quest in the game (excepting nin-in-eilph and dol guldur).
17 minutes ago, Wandalf the Gizzard said:Wow, you should time these to release immediately after each errata so as to maximize legality.
Seriously, though, is the next infinite loop deck that can consistently beat every quest in the game (excepting nin-in-eilph and dol guldur).
The previously-documented unlimited event recursion was one thing, but now Seastan is going to earn us all Record attachment errata, heh: "…Then, remove Tome of Atanatar [et al.] from the game."
Great job Seastan! Using burst from song may change things about my combo too. I will think about can improving the combo by removing every randomness and allowing the loop to be set-up on turn one. I don't know it this is possible. I stay in touch ;).
@Wandalf the Gizzard & @sappidus Have you read the post below. Because, this time, it is kind of exaggerated to says that Seastan invented this deck. I appreciate what he done by improving my deck for maximize the score to black gate. But the fellowship to beat them all is not the next step, it is just the post before Seastan. It don't have explanation yet (I'm working on it) but this is still clear along the discussion.
43 minutes ago, Rouxxor said:Have you read the post below. Because, this time, it is kind of exaggerated to says that Seastan invented this deck. I appreciate what he done by improving my deck for maximize the score to black gate. But the fellowship to beat them all is not the next step, it is just the post before Seastan. It don't have explanation yet (I'm working on it) but this is still clear along the discussion.
I was making a comment about the unlimited recursion that the Record attachments enable—unless I am missing something, you don't have those in your fellowship…? Also, I was making no claims that Seastan invented anything specific, just an implicit little joke that he's taken an idea to a point that may attract the eye of SauronImeanCaleb.
As for your fellowship, I confess that I do not see how it fits together into a loop. I'd love to understand it! Then I can joke that you screwed us with an erratum too.
(To White Council, perhaps?)
5 hours ago, Rouxxor said:Great job Seastan! Using burst from song may change things about my combo too. I will think about can improving the combo by removing every randomness and allowing the loop to be set-up on turn one. I don't know it this is possible. I stay in touch ;).
@Wandalf the Gizzard & @sappidus Have you read the post below. Because, this time, it is kind of exaggerated to says that Seastan invented this deck. I appreciate what he done by improving my deck for maximize the score to black gate. But the fellowship to beat them all is not the next step, it is just the post before Seastan. It don't have explanation yet (I'm working on it) but this is still clear along the discussion.
I was not trying to improve your fellowship, I was trying to come up with my own idea. I think our fellowships use almost entirely different cards.
It's clear enough, to me at least, that any deck/fellowship that can generate infinite resources on turn 1 can beat any quest in the game. It is the actual generation of the resources that is the tricky part, and I am less interested in the actual procedure of how to beat each quest with infinite resources. For the fellowship I posted, you can easily convert it to a 100% consistent "beat any quest on turn 1" simply by adding 3x Legacy of Numenor and 3x Deep Knowledge to each deck so that Valor is reached in the first planning phase.
On 26/04/2018 at 6:20 AM, Seastan said:I was not trying to improve your fellowship, I was trying to come up with my own idea. I think our fellowships use almost entirely different cards.
It's clear enough, to me at least, that any deck/fellowship that can generate infinite resources on turn 1 can beat any quest in the game. It is the actual generation of the resources that is the tricky part, and I am less interested in the actual procedure of how to beat each quest with infinite resources. For the fellowship I posted, you can easily convert it to a 100% consistent "beat any quest on turn 1" simply by adding 3x Legacy of Numenor and 3x Deep Knowledge to each deck so that Valor is reached in the first planning phase.
We are close on many steps: we stand that long by revealing only one card each turn, thanks to repeated Gildor's Counsel, using infinite resource get with dwarf line-up with we are not idle. All this led me to think you get some of what I do for making your fellowship. I was wrong. Sorry about that.
You will need also many cards to bypass many of the requirement of some quests. That is what I try to do with my fellowship up there. That is why I say mine can already beat most of the quest. I also think that mine is better than your because of some nausty effects we can sometime found in location. But overall we can both defeat most of the quest in the first turn.
I'm thinking about how to win using less decks. I think this is possible with 3 decks, using most of your fellowship. With only 2 decks it became hard because you can't remove all the location in the encounter deck so easily. I haven't found any way actually.
7 hours ago, Rouxxor said:We are close on many steps: we stand that long by revealing only one card each turn, thanks to repeated Gildor's Counsel, using infinite resource get with dwarf line-up with we are not idle. All this led me to think you get some of what I do for making your fellowship. I was wrong. Sorry about that.
Actually, even after seeing your fellowship, I still do not know the loop for generating the resources (I have not thought too hard about it) so it would be tough for me to copy it. Besides, I published a fellowship long ago, back in Nov 2016, that uses We are not Idle to generate infinite resources before the errata: http://ringsdb.com/fellowship/view/1648/infinite-resources (and also a video! https://youtu.be/i_IczcP3Lrg ). So I had this loop in mind already.
QuoteI'm thinking about how to win using less decks. I think this is possible with 3 decks, using most of your fellowship. With only 2 decks it became hard because you can't remove all the location in the encounter deck so easily. I haven't found any way actually.
I have already made such a fellowship: http://ringsdb.com/fellowship/view/4634 . I have not published it yet because I have not had any time to test it. But I think it should work. The most locations you will ever need to remove from the deck is 20, from Hills of Emyn Muil. But notice that once the deck gets thin on locations, your Pathfinder will frequently whiff. This means you may draw 3 or 4 times from Lord of Morthond every time you pull a location with Pathfinder. By the time there are only a couple locations left in the deck, you may be drawing 6 or 7 cards with each Pathfinder. This should be enough to keep recycling Born Aloft and Second Breakfast back into your deck and drawing them again with Will of the West.
Well, I tested the 2-deck fellowship against Hills of Emyn Muil and I was able to remove all 20 locations from the encounter deck.
What I did was I had player 1 play Justice Shall be done, then player 2 waits until Player 1 is finished and has passed Dain over to player 2, then plays Fili and Sword-Thain and then their own copy of Justice Shall be Done. That is 24 resources generated with only 2 copies of Justice.
I had not yet fully analyses your fellowship but I already see a "in the service of the steward". To gain the gondor trait a steward of gondor is in fact better because you get back the two resources you spend. So even for playing one turn you should consider playing steward of gondor instead of in the service of the steward.
PS: It can't be your 2-deck fellowship listed below since, with only 1 will of the west you are unable to play enough pathfinder. You probably make some modification.
Edited by Rouxxor13 hours ago, Rouxxor said:I had not yet fully analyses your fellowship but I already see a "in the service of the steward". To gain the gondor trait a steward of gondor is in fact better because you get back the two resources you spend. So even for playing one turn you should consider playing steward of gondor instead of in the service of the steward.
PS: It can't be your 2-deck fellowship listed below since, with only 1 will of the west you are unable to play enough pathfinder. You probably make some modification.
Since Deck 2 has Tome of Atanatar, there is actually no limit to how many Pathfinders you can play:
1. Play Breakfast to get back Born Aloft.
2. Play Tome.
3. Use Tome on Breakfast, bring Tome back to hand and put Breakfast in deck.
4. Play Born Aloft. Use it to bring back Pathfinder.
5. Play Pathfinder again. Draw Breakfast.
6. Repeat.
That loop costs only 2 resources. But in reality I don't even use the loop, since it is cheaper to play 1 Will of the West to get back all Second Breakfasts and Born Alofts for 1 resource. The Tomes are the more expensive option and only need to be used a couple times against a quest with many locations.
Edited by Seastan
Good point about In Service to the Steward though. It saves me 1 resource.
Good point with Tome/Born aloft. This could help me a lot if I try to build those decks. Thanks! If at any point you want to make some change on your 2 player list (like steward of gondor VS service at the steward) I really appreciate to get an update of your fellowship because I will probably test it. And try to improve it if this is still possible ^^.
I'm trying to optimize your deck. My point is to make it the more stable possible and to be able to beat the most high number of quest possible (if able, all). So we have, for example:
- To be able not to loose at the end of the turn (so we can't play justice shall be done) in at least 20% of the quest;
- Find a way to do the loops at event speed to win some quest in the turn;
- Be able to survive when we get separated, when some of our deck is captured (this one is hard), to get back the ally in battle of pelenor field...
For avoid to rely too much of justice shall be done I try to have many drawing card engine in the first deck, be sure to draw all my deck every game, this is possible by playing only one exemplar of many key cards (lord of morthond, song of battle, song of travel, steward, rallying cry).
To do the loops at event speed I use the white council loops after getting infinite resource). Some explanations:
Starting situation: Each player at 45 (I can go to 49 during combo and be safe anyway, I can explain that if needed), in hand 2 white council & 1 deep knowledge it any play hand, in discard 1 white council & 1 galadhrim's greeting + any card you want (let's name it X). We only use option of the white council to reshuffle a card fro discard pile to the deck.
1- The White council target The White council and galadhrim greetings
2- The White council target The White council and Deep Knowledge
3- Play Deep knowledge, draw 2 white council, deep knowledge and galadhrim's greetings (47 threat)
4- Play Galadhrim's greeting to low a player threat by 6 (41 threat)
5- Do again 1&2&3 actions (one player at 49 threat and the other at 43)
6- Play Galadhrim's greeting to low the other player threat by 6 (43 threat each)
7- The White council target The White council and X
8- The White council target The white Council and Deep knowledge
9- Play Deep knowledge, draw 2 white council, deep knoweledge and galadhrim's greeting (45 threat each)
Conclusion: we are back on the initial situation with an additional card in hand of our choice, using only event.
I will probably do some playtesting against each quest to improve the 1 card toolbox (see what is useless and what is missing). For now I'm getting those decklists:
http://ringsdb.com/fellowship/view/4727