I think I have to agree that focusing on combat is the way to go. I would include lots of threat reduction and location control, though. Doom Hangs Still is perfect for this quest.

Two players running mono-leadership, two players running mono-lore.

Have the whole fellowship geared around playing 1 copy of Doom Hangs Still and 1 copy of Advance Warning every turn. Then means that you don't raise your threat for failing the quest, and you don't ever have to engage enemies. You will survive as long as you can keep playing theses cards (until you threat out naturally).

To do it right you will probably need 2 or more card pools (or lots of proxies).

Each leadership deck should also be running Legacy of Numenor, Seeing Stone, and Campfire Tales for resource/card acceleration and Tome of Atanatar and Second Breakfast to recur Doom Hangs Still.

Each lore deck should also be running Deep Knowledge and Seeing Stone for card acceleration and Scroll of Isildur and Erebor Hammersmith to recur Advanced Warning.

Pretty quickly the encounter deck will be entirely treacheries. So have each Lore deck run 3x Out of the Wild to pick out the worst ones. You might also want to have Elrond as one of the heroes and have each lore deck run Wardens of Healing.

My group has made 4 attempts on the past two weeks. We’re choosing to ignore the dead-is-dead rule for hero’s in the sagas on this one. We’ve survived until turn 7. The upside is we’re consistently surviving one more turn with each attempt. Our guess is we need to reach 10-12 turns to have a reasonable shot at Mt Doom.

The first two attempts we had a 3rd player join. We all used mono-lore decks based off Seastan’s, all with Advance Warning in an attempt to avoid engagement. It worked, but we couldn’t kill enough fast enough, and couldn’t quest well enough to overcome 6-8 additional encounter cards per turn on top of the 2 starting nazgul burden enemies, Mouth of Sauron, Black Gate, and two starting enemies (plus the 1 card we put into play from Quest Card 1b). By turn 3 & 4 we had all threat out.

The extra threat and combat from the Wraiths on Wings burdens (from Pelennor Fields quest resolution) really adds up. I’ve come to loathe those guys.

Last night our standard 2-player group which had gone through the rest of the campaign made another go. I ran a mono-lore, my buddy had a leadership/Galadriel outlands deck with ldEomer and Hirluin, designed to give Galadriel song of kings, have Éomer kill things in staging without engagement, and play doom hangs still.

We survived longer, until turn 5 the first game (threating out), and then until turn 7 the 2nd before either threating our or getting killed by the enemies.

The suggestion for a strategy built around Doom Hangs Still and Advance Warning seems less viable at 2 players. Both cards are great, but you can’t guarantee having a copy of either or both every turn, and saving resources to play them means not spending resources to play allies and attachments to help with questing or combat.

Our strategy is to not to quest at all when Doom Hangs Still is in play, and use that/those turns to engage and kill as many enemies as possible, but mono lore decks just aren’t great in that department.

We are at the point now where the first 1-2 turns feel good. Turn 3 and 4 are the turning points. By then, it’s highly likely to have a surging card, meaning the potential for 5 or 6 new encounter cards, with that number increasing every round. We just can’t keep up. In the final game last night we ended up raising our threat by 47 on turn 6 when we couldn’t draw and play a copy of Doom Hangs Still and were out of Advance Warnings. That resulted in every enemy in play engaging us.

I’m wondering if in 2 player, 2x mono-leadership decks would be better, digging for doom hangs still every turn and actively trying to engage and kill enemies. With one mono lore and one mono leadership, we can tend to find 1-2 copies of Doom Hangs Still and Advance Warning, but inevitably we hit a turn where we don’t have any more in hand and and have to go without. The later in the game that happens, the more cards there are in the staging area and the worse things get on us.

You first speak about playing the event as a stand-alone. So there is no such things as " Wraiths on Wing".

What Seastan propose is, to me, a solution to be able to keep playing a long time (like 10 or 15 turns), not solution to stain until 5/7 turns. For this you only need to go fast. No need to build specific deck. Deck that do well against other adventures are good in this too. As usual have a early boost using legacy of numenor is awesome for example. Here is an example of vilya that is not that long (a little set-up during first turn, go nuts from turn 2) and a outland that do great against this one: http://ringsdb.com/deck/view/43448 and http://ringsdb.com/deck/view/57908

I said I had played the scenario once before as a stand alone, but every game described in my last post was as part of the campaign.

I've seen your Vilya deck. It is very strong, and I actually played a version of it (with a few changes to suit my personal playstyle) for much of the saga campaign. I haven't used it for Black Gate, but may try, with a few additional adjustments.

I think Seastan's solution is good, but really comes into its own at 4 players, where the group can rotate who is playing the big event cards (Doom Hangs Still and Advance Warning) each round, while the other players use that turn to build their board state. In addition, Legacy of Numenor and Deep Knowledge get better and more impactful at higher player counts. At two players, we just can't consistently both draw into or be able to recover and replay those cards consistently enough. Eventually we hit a turn where we lack one or both, and at that point we either raise our threat a large amount from failing to quest, or we have mass numbers of enemies engage us, or both.

The guy I've played the campaign with made a post on the lotr discord channel. It sounds like surviving 7-8 turns is pretty good for the Black Gate scenario. One big question is whether other people are able to defeat Mt. Doom in 7-8 turns.

Seastan solution is good. It lead to survive better than any of my decks did! But I don't think it help to survive the first turns so it is not the best option if you want a 7/8 turns like I did.

I'm personally rarely able to survive more than 7/8 turns in Mt Doom. Locations stack in the staging area and we can't get a willpower big boost or we will die at threat because we have to many allies. We need to go really fast. So 7/8 turns in black gate opens seem enough to me. I just did a campaign in solo mode (with vilya) and manage to win in 6 to 8 turns or die before. So I know that the 9 counter I had on black gate was more than needed.

I changed my strategy a bit, opting for Outlands rather than Doom Hangs Still. I managed to last 50 rounds against the black gate in 4-player: https://youtu.be/-_kKjdCQGFM

I tried trimming it down to a 2-deck solution, but I don't know how well it works:

http://ringsdb.com/decklist/view/7956/black-gate-generic-deck-1.0

Good gravy. Is "The Black Gate Opens" your new "Journey Down the Anduin" for testing decks?

When I told he was not looking for a wayout to win the next scenario but for a outstanding number of turns. It is one of the best (may be the best, I don't have any idea) to take the longest possible, probably not the solution who is the most safe to take just as long as needed. So I don't think it answer the question. It is more interesting for me though

Wow. That was quite amazing. Moving all the Ethir Swordsman over is quite a neat trick, and I like the use of the Message to do that. Very cool.

I don't think he move any ethir swordsman using message because if he do so it will discard ethir swordman at the end of the turn. Moving stand and fight who raise ethir swordman seem to work better ;). The answer will be on the video but it is 2 hours and thirty minutes so I'm not brave enough to check ^^.

1 hour ago, Rouxxor said:

I don't think he move any ethir swordsman using message because if he do so it will discard ethir swordman at the end of the turn. Moving stand and fight who raise ethir swordman seem to work better ;). The answer will be on the video but it is 2 hours and thirty minutes so I'm not brave enough to check ^^.

I probably should have said 'the use of the Message to facilitate that' rather than 'do that': I understand how the combo works, it's very neat! I really like seeing how people use cards in ways I couldn't fathom to achieve really jaw-dropping levels of willpower.

I've recently lamented this quest as being Nightmare-level, which saddens me as I want to always take my original heroes all through the campaign, but that's a different story.

How I lasted 8 rounds in The Black Gate Opens isn't nearly as... creative?... but more straightforward, so take what you will. I did so with my first group of heroes via some key Spirit cards. I play two-handed, and had Glorfindel, Beregond (tactics), Beorn, and Cirdan, Arwen, Lanwyn.

The Spirit cards I used (many of which I proxied to have 3 in each deck) were...

West Road Traveller: Whenever I had her in hand, I traveled to the location that puts an enemy under it. Next round I'd play her to swap that location with a different one. By the end, I had 3 enemies trapped under that location.

Curious Brandybuck: Entered play free and never left, as I never had enough willpower to explore the active location, yet the active location still leaves when you fail.

Heirs of Earendil: Maybe I only had 3 in the 1st deck? I need control of Aragorn to play it, but it worked great against the location that's 4 threat and 1 quest point. (Though may need to play it on the location that makes everything else immune when it becomes the active location.)

Thror's Key: To nullify worst locations. (Maybe only had 3 in 2nd deck?)

Test of Will, Hasty Stroke, and Unexpected Courage: Was sparing with ToW initially due to attacks from Mouth, but with UEs on Beregond (or chump blocker) could do at times.

Some solid tactic cards were Proud Hunters, and Hour of Wrath for Beregond. Given Surges, Lanwyn was great with extra willpower and/or readying for attacks. Also had Behind Strong Walls and Desperate Defense for Beregond if needed.

Beregond was rock star (7 defense with boons and Shield of Gondor). I had other cards, of course, but was very pleased with West Road Traveller, Curious Brandybuck, and Heirs of Earendil.

Finally took this scenario on tonight with slightly tweaked campaign decks. Made it to 5 counters before threating out. I had pretty bad luck with draws (mine and encounter) so that no combo piece came out and the encounter deck spewed nazgul or pillars in the first two rounds. Seriously hard quest, but I think the problem I have is that my campaign decks have never had a single defender. I've always fudged that aspect, and it's not working now! It seems that combat really is king here. Is a solid defender a key part of surviving? I think maybe a little more doomed would help.

Im using leadership eomer, but not seein enough benefit from his ability. Hmm.

5 counters is really few. This will be very complicated for the next one.

Getting your threat low is impossible in this quest, so you will have to defend a lot of enemies. Eomer is not useless here, but the deck need to be resdesign for this particular game I think.

8 hours ago, Rouxxor said:

5 counters is really few. This will be very complicated for the next one.

Getting your threat low is impossible in this quest, so you will have to defend a lot of enemies. Eomer is not useless here, but the deck need to be resdesign for this particular game I think.

Agreed, I think it's at least 2 too few. These decks can quest like **** if necessary, but that takes some restructuring, so I'm confident that Mount Doom can be done in 7 or 8 turns, but I need to do better on Black Gate (that, and I only killed one Winged Nazgul and Gwaihir was a shadow card...).

I'm going to give it a few more shots, partly to see if it was only a bad draw (I scooped one opening turn, but otherwise this was my first attempt). Low threat is obviously not possible, but I think that I may need to rethink one character (I've had a rotation spot in one deck since the start, ever since Haldir was sacrificed against the Balrog), and I'm thinking of subbing in Beregond (sp). Having a decent defender with sentinel would really help. I was trying to make a Hama ally recycling work, but I couldn't keep it up.

Do people tend to find that they can quest successfully in turn one? Ever thereafter?

I've found Ld Eomer to be quite good, and I wasn't expecting it, to be honest. He can really help out in quests that add enemies before staging, or when they get returned to the staging area.

I was trying to make a Hama ally recycling work, but I couldn't keep it up.

My rohan deck is mostly based on recycling Eomund, it use also Hama that is cycled too sometime (but readying all your character is, strangely, better that only Hama ^^). You can find it here: http://ringsdb.com/deck/view/56936 . May be you can find idea for your hama mechanic ;).

As far I remember I quest successfully on firsts turns but it get complicated when I have to reveal 4 cards and it is even catastrophic when revealing the location who have X threat, X equal to the allie (or may be even character). I'm also used to deck able to go high in willpower, like start at 7/8 and gain an average of 4 per turn is not unusual to me :).

12 hours ago, Rouxxor said:

My rohan deck is mostly based on recycling Eomund, it use also Hama that is cycled too sometime (but readying all your character is, strangely, better that only Hama ^^). You can find it here: http://ringsdb.com/deck/view/56936 . May be you can find idea for your hama mechanic ;).

As far I remember I quest successfully on firsts turns but it get complicated when I have to reveal 4 cards and it is even catastrophic when revealing the location who have X threat, X equal to the allie (or may be even character). I'm also used to deck able to go high in willpower, like start at 7/8 and gain an average of 4 per turn is not unusual to me :).

Yeah, Eomund could be a useful alternative. I was using Hama recycling as a defense mechanism, since he can defend twice at 5, or even 6 if Arwen ally is in play, and then pop back out if necessary when recycled with Gamling or Guthwine. The tricky bit is that Hama was often destroyed, not discarded, so Gamling couldn't come into play.

Thank you for the decklist. I like the idea of using Elven Light with heroes who discard cards, and this may make me add in Protector of Lorien from the other deck to provide variable boosts using cards like Elven Light.

The decks I use start at 9 and 6 willpower respectively (perhaps 7 if I use Eomer to quest/attack round 1), so can hit 15 or 16 total, up against a standard 6 threat in turn one (Mouth of Sauron, 2 x Winged Nazgul, Black Gate) plus whatever pops out (2 reveals averages something like 5/6?) and whatever I chose to reveal in the first quest card. So I *could* succeed by 3 or 4, but it didn't happen last time (Nazgul reveal first round kinda hurt) and I like to hold back Eomer in order to kill off one Winged Wraith in the first round - keen to have one fewer in Mount Doom.

Much to think on. Thanks for the thoughts!

Whoo! Managed to last 7 rounds last night. I didn't alter the decks at all, but wanted one last go at it before tweaking. Think I'll go with this result for the next scenario, since I also killed both Nazgul burdens and got Gwaihir out in the last round.

I managed to quest successfully twice (rounds 1 and 3), in the latter case thanks to a timely Palantir boon usage dropping the reveals down to 3 in total. Also had some timely help from various tricks (one use of Doom Hangs Still and a Fierce Defence in round 6 helping to clear two Nazgul in one round!). It seems to me that location trickery is pretty important, because it helped me to hold together with questing through Beleaguered Hills remaining the active location for two rounds while I had a Winged Wraith and a Nazgul engaged, dropping the staging area threat by 7 and then 8 in total. Finally threated out in round 7.

I guess I could go again, but it worked out quite well, and I'm keen to finish the campaign off. I still have *all* my one-use boons left, so this final scenario can be a splurge of boonage.

On to Mount Doom!

We're rooting for you!

All done! Finally found time to play Mount Doom after rebuilding the decks a bit for the unique challenge. Heroes stayed the same but a load of readying effects came in. My favourite addition was the 5 cost neutral readying event The Free People (IRRC) which twice gave me big rounds, once on the last questing phase. Leadership Eomer came through really well but the big star was TaEowyn, who was singlehandedly questing and fortituding by the end. In the last round Glorfindel got hit with the treachery that stops the hero contributing to Fortitude tests, so my last test only had 10 willpower against 8 card reveals. So tense! Came through with 10 willpower to 9 eyes! Such a great scenario!

Well, that took years. Now what? :/

Now a good stiff drink!

Hurrah!

Now we wait for a indeterminable amount of time for each iota that FFG releases to us poor content-starved fans as we anticipate the next expansion that will undoubtedly be three months late.

On 22/02/2018 at 9:06 PM, Seastan said:

I changed my strategy a bit, opting for Outlands rather than Doom Hangs Still. I managed to last 50 rounds against the black gate in 4-player: https://youtu.be/-_kKjdCQGFM

I tried trimming it down to a 2-deck solution, but I don't know how well it works:

http://ringsdb.com/decklist/view/7956/black-gate-generic-deck-1.0

I think I get the solution for my next combo turn one. I will explain all after resolving some deckbuilding question I'm asking myself. What is your best score at Black Gate? I will try to beat it :).