Hey all, I'm an admin on the X-Wing Wiki (wikia) and I'm trying to offer an appropriate ruling for this comment about Outrider:

Quote

Even if the cannon is discarded it is still considered to be equipped. If you Boba Fett the cannon the Outrider cannot shoot at all.

At both first blush and after a moment's thought, this sounds like clear nonsense to me. A discarded card is part of the ship still, but it's no longer equipped for outrider's purposes. Rendering a ship unable to attack at all also seems like a clear stretch of intent.

However, I'd like to know what TOs commonly rule. I've always seen it ruled as the Title becomes inactive -- the discarded cannon is no longer equipped, but that may be a local thing. Is this correct for other TOs? Anyone ever get an answer from FFG on this?

No. The cannon is not equipped it's discarded.

When an Upgrade card is discarded, it is flipped
facedown. The card is out of play for all purposes
except when determining the total squad point
cost of the ship to which it was equipped. If an
Upgrade card is flipped faceup by a game effect,
it returns to play equipped to the same ship.

This is also relevant to the Munitions Failure in the original damage deck.

Per the title, if you no longer have a secondary weapon attached, you revert back to the primary weapon.

7 hours ago, Wazat said:

Hey all, I'm an admin on the X-Wing Wiki (wikia) and I'm trying to offer an appropriate ruling for this comment about Outrider:

At both first blush and after a moment's thought, this sounds like clear nonsense to me. A discarded card is part of the ship still, but it's no longer equipped for outrider's purposes. Rendering a ship unable to attack at all also seems like a clear stretch of intent.

However, I'd like to know what TOs commonly rule. I've always seen it ruled as the Title becomes inactive -- the discarded cannon is no longer equipped, but that may be a local thing. Is this correct for other TOs? Anyone ever get an answer from FFG on this?

Are they going by Schrodingers Cannon? the cannon exists and doesnt exist at the same time? I would love to hear their logic as to why its still equipped but can't be used. Arachneo is all over it.

8 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No. The cannon is not equipped it's discarded.

Exactly... cards that are flipped are not in play, until another card brings them back in play (ie.. reload).

9 hours ago, Arachneo said:

When an Upgrade card is discarded, it is flipped
facedown. The card is out of play for all purposes
except when determining the total squad point
cost of the ship to which it was equipped. If an
Upgrade card is flipped faceup by a game effect,
it returns to play equipped to the same ship.

This is a direct quote from page 20 of the Blue Core 'Rules Reference' booklet.

Cool, thanks everyone!

Seeing the post on X-wing Miniatures Wiki, I had thought it was obvious that when discarded it meant the title was no longer in effect. However, the poster did make a decent argument, which now makes it seems that they need to errata the Reload action reference card for consistency with the terminology as they usually use it.

His/her argument was that the reload action is useless if this is the case.

The reload action reference cards says:

Ships with the Reload icon in their action bar may perform a reload action. To reload, choose any number of the ship's equipped, discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards and flip them faceup, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token.

Now here they specify "equipped, discarded Torpedo..."

Based on the rules reference and argument here the discarded card is out of play. It is no longer equipped, or why would the reference say "to which it was equipped". So the reload action should be rewritten slightly to say:

Ships with the Reload icon in their action bar may perform a reload action. To reload, choose any number of the ship's discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards, that were previously equipped, and flip them faceup, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token.

Otherwise based on the previous use of these words would imply the current wording makes the action useless. Now obviously this is not what the designers intended, but the poster who was arguing that the Outrider could no longer fire if the cannon was discarded, is making a decent argument if they are basing it on the reload action reference card. Since I don't have any ship with the reload action I was not starting from that point, but I see how a player who first uses a ship with reload could make this assumption. For consistency and ease of interpretation the Reload action should be slightly reworded.

8 minutes ago, Desmothenes44 said:

Ships with the Reload icon in their action bar may perform a reload action. To reload, choose any number of the ship's discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards, that were previously equipped, and flip them faceup, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token.

Absolutely right, reload should include that for consistency with the rule references.

2 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

This is a direct quote from page 20 of the Blue Core 'Rules Reference' booklet.

Yes, i've forgotten to tag it. Sorry

I'm inclined to agree about needing to clarify Reload; a simple FAQ entry would probably resolve it, as long as FFG is direct.

However, for now one could argue that Reload is acting as a specific exception to the general rule. The general rule is that the discarded card is out of play for all purposes, so all effects treat it like it no longer exists. Reload is reaching into the ether and pulling it back into play, by specifically saying it acts on a discarded card. As such, it's able to reference states (like "equipped") that otherwise don't have any bearing on game effects.

So Outrider looks at the discarded card and says "that's discarded, it's out of play and has no status so it's not equipped". Reload looks at the discarded card and says "that's discarded, but I specifically work with discarded cards and need to know its state (e.g. equipped)".

This may well be a long stretch of the specific vs general rules rule, but it feels like the way to approach this difference for now.

It doesn't need rewritten. Read the rest of the quote. It's already covered the reload action.

10 hours ago, Desmothenes44 said:

Seeing the post on X-wing Miniatures Wiki, I had thought it was obvious that when discarded it meant the title was no longer in effect. However, the poster did make a decent argument, which now makes it seems that they need to errata the Reload action reference card for consistency with the terminology as they usually use it.

His/her argument was that the reload action is useless if this is the case.

The reload action reference cards says:

Ships with the Reload icon in their action bar may perform a reload action. To reload, choose any number of the ship's equipped, discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards and flip them faceup, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token.

Now here they specify "equipped, discarded Torpedo..."

Based on the rules reference and argument here the discarded card is out of play. It is no longer equipped, or why would the reference say "to which it was equipped". So the reload action should be rewritten slightly to say:

Ships with the Reload icon in their action bar may perform a reload action. To reload, choose any number of the ship's discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards, that were previously equipped, and flip them faceup, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token.

Otherwise based on the previous use of these words would imply the current wording makes the action useless. Now obviously this is not what the designers intended, but the poster who was arguing that the Outrider could no longer fire if the cannon was discarded, is making a decent argument if they are basing it on the reload action reference card. Since I don't have any ship with the reload action I was not starting from that point, but I see how a player who first uses a ship with reload could make this assumption. For consistency and ease of interpretation the Reload action should be slightly reworded.

"If an Upgrade card is flipped face up by a game effect, it returns to play equipped to the same ship."

This last part from pg 20 of the Rule book covers the Reload action for ordinance. A discarded card is turned face down, (except for dual sided cards), and its effects are no longer in play. Reload turns an ordinance card face up, which brings it back into play.

So maybe the clarification/errata only needs to remove the word 'equipped' from the reload action reference?

I think the problem here is that the reload reference implies that discarded cards are still equipped, a clear contradiction of the rules. That contradiction leads to the misunderstanding of what happens to with the Outrider if the Canon is lost.

Naturally, though, cards are exceptions to rules though so perhaps the explanation is that the discarded card is no longer equipped, unless it has reload?