EPISODE 72

Welcome aboard the Shuttle Tydirium podcast! This week we're talking about the recent FAQ, and a mission design concept based on the battle to destroy the Siege Dreadnaught at the opening of Episode 8. RIP Sassy Dreadnaught Commander. RIP.

Also, can we have a discussion about point defense turrets for a minute or two?

FAQ: 16:00

Destroy the Dreadnaught: 1:01:15

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No but seriously are there no point defense turrets on the ventral hull of a Mandator IV Siege Dreadnaught?

That's a plot device feature, not a bug. The ship is working as designed.

1 hour ago, Babaganoosh said:

No but seriously are there no point defense turrets on the ventral hull of a Mandator IV Siege Dreadnaught?

Isn’t that what Poe was taking out?

5 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Isn’t that what Poe was taking out?

Poe was destroying dorsal turrets. Dorsal=top , ventral=bottom.

The dorsal turrets are clearly visible in images of the dreadnaught, but the images of the bottom (mostly focused on the autocannons) don't have any visible turrets. Caveat is that I don't have great images of the whole underside.

It's another point entirely, but I will say that it would have been awesome to see the bombers invert and 'bomb' the dreadnaught from underneath.

Poe destroys ventral turrets in TFA in the stolen tie. The question could then be: where are the missiles that the ship in TFA uses to easily take out a single fighter?

Star Wars is still trying to give us some scenes that kids will act out with their toys, and so the plot demands Poe be able to fly right in, pull that awesome maneuver, and clear the decks.

The Wookipedia article does list “26 dorsal cannons,” so I think you’re right that the ventral don’t appear.

14 minutes ago, dadocollin said:

Poe destroys ventral turrets in TFA in the stolen tie. The question could then be: where are the missiles that the ship in TFA uses to easily take out a single fighter?

Star Wars is still trying to give us some scenes that kids will act out with their toys, and so the plot demands Poe be able to fly right in, pull that awesome maneuver, and clear the decks.

The Wookipedia article does list “26 dorsal cannons,” so I think you’re right that the ventral don’t appear.

The wookieepedia article is quoting the visual guide, I believe.

I do think the ship was designed to work with the scene that the film-makers wanted, instead of designed organically first, and worked into the shot second. I don't really know if the objective was to sell toys and computer games, or to just give Poe something spectacular to do in the first few minutes of the movie. Poe is unbelievably good - I mean that in the literal sense of the word, in that his piloting abilities are beyond what I would find believable. That he's good against turrets is no surprise though; this is the same guy that destroyed 10 TIE/FOs and sniped several stormtroopers in one attack run in episode 7.

I look forward to a book or whatever in the future retconning defenses of some kind into existence on the bottom of the ship, though.

I’m a little surprised Disney doesn’t employ some super-fans to pick out all these details. Put them under NDAs.

I imagine films like this one suffer from a simple lack of extra eyes on the footage. The need to prevent leaks and spoilers is so great, that there’s probably a limited number of people who see even parts of the film.

25 minutes ago, dadocollin said:

I’m a little surprised Disney doesn’t employ some super-fans to pick out all these details. Put them under NDAs.

I imagine films like this one suffer from a simple lack of extra eyes on the footage. The need to prevent leaks and spoilers is so great, that there’s probably a limited number of people who see even parts of the film.

That's kinda what the freakin' story group is for, isn't it?

39 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

That's kinda what the freakin' story group is for, isn't it?

Yes, but they need some help! I don’t pretend to understand all the complexity of how the SW universe runs under Disney, but it seems like the story people miss a lot of things and especially opportunities to link to other material. They shouldn’t be surprised by fan reaction to anything. That they are says one of two things to me: they need more detail-oriented eyes on things or there’s a culture where everyone is saying everything is so amazing and they stop being critical.

The Dorsal Turrets are Single Turbo Lasers. They would rip apart those Bombers. They would also get enough hits on a T-70. Poe doesn't have to spend his focus and would get 4 green dice, so he's the only one able to do it. Resistance player took a 54 pt initiative bid.

14 hours ago, dadocollin said:

Yes, but they need some help! I don’t pretend to understand all the complexity of how the SW universe runs under Disney, but it seems like the story people miss a lot of things and especially opportunities to link to other material. They shouldn’t be surprised by fan reaction to anything. That they are says one of two things to me: they need more detail-oriented eyes on things or there’s a culture where everyone is saying everything is so amazing and they stop being critical.

I think it's more that maybe they got the wrong people in place? It's also their job to recognize that they need more people if things are too busy for them with the increasing scope. Just some quick observations on my part:

1. Continuity - The movies so far have some glitches in continuity. There's also been some glitches in the books since they're working in multiple timelines at once due to the 'legends' maneuver. It's hard to maintain continuity across so many aspects, but it is part of their job.
2. Story planning - Generally speaking large franchises don't just give everybody free reign. There are restrictions, key notes and final outcomes usually placed upon things. "This character must live" and "Do not show what a Tusken Raider looks like without his face mask." From accounts on how this new trilogy has been put together, this is not happening. Of course, I'm not in the know here, but leaving a bunch of unanswered questions for the new guy without leaving notes on what the answers are.... Yeah, that's not good team play and not good for story planning. It results in weird turns as somebody else tries to explain why things have happened.
3. Timeline - This is more of the grand scheme of timelines - where each movie/book/whatever fits together. This is not the individual movie timeline as that is on the writing/directing staff. As written, the Empire is pretty much imploding within a very short time of Endor now. This was a galactic empire with everything in place and controlled - I do believe things should erode without the Emperor at the helm, but even a self-destruct scenario will have limitations. The timeline does not seem believable. Another example - Luke has run off for more than a decade unseen to sit and sulk. This is documented through multiple movies (TFA set it up!) and books here, so not finger pointing at TLJ. Now think about it, years of doing nothing on some primitive rock except think about failure. Luke is not an idiot, he has his stubborn moments and can blind himself to things, but he does try to think outside the box occasionally. With nothing else to do, not even using the force for self-training, he's got to look at things from multiple perspectives and see the larger scope eventually. Now, if Luke had run off maybe a year or two, the plausibility of the sequence becomes more palatable.
4. Quality - This, despite the blow up fan reactions, I think the story group is trying hard to achieve. Their idea of what quality is may be different, but they have stepped in when they felt they needed to. I may not agree with their decisions, but I recognize that they've made them. Aftermath books, which were hugely ramped up for the new trilogy, were terrible. There's a good story underneath things, but somebody needed to step up and look at it closely and ask themselves if the books were really ready.
5. Financial Sustainability - Yeah, they're here to make money and keep the franchise going. They've got the merchandising down, as Lucas always did before. Providing they don't mess things up too bad and kill the franchise, they'll make money.

It is what it is. I'm enjoying most of what's been produced, so things aren't too far off the tracks yet.

• I have issues with TFA, but enjoyed it.
• Rogue One continues to grow with each rewatch. It jumped about too much early on, but with rewatching I've found it easier to follow.
• TLJ - some of my biggest complaints were originated in TFA, but it introduced a few flaws of it's own. Still liked it.
• I have concerns about Solo... Hopefully they'll be proven wrong
• The books have been largely hit and miss.... The comics the same.
• There are some very good and interesting new characters introduced. The films... if some abilities weren't so freakishly exaggerated I might link to them better, but Sloan was interesting, Aphra I'm invested in seeing more of. Starting to come around to Kylo Ren as he is developed... which is good - a story needs a strong antagonist. If your villain is terrible and unbelievable then nobody cares that the heroes must face them...

Wow, sorry for the rant! How 'bout them Dreadnaught guns?

I actually had only read a few Star Wars novels before the Disney split to the new “official” ones and the EU. I decided I’d start reading everything new and I’ve found them really hit and miss. I’m not sure I can even pick a favorite. I’m reading the first Battlefront tie-in now and then I think I’m going to read the old X-wing series all the way through.

I think some of the new novels (like Dark Disciple or Catalyst for example) fill in gaps in the story, but they’ve missed a lot of opportunity to make a cohesive whole. So many of them are just one-offs since authors aren’t allowed to know the movie plots ahead of time - they’re just given tiny pieces of the story pie to work with.

25 minutes ago, dadocollin said:

I actually had only read a few Star Wars novels before the Disney split to the new “official” ones and the EU. I decided I’d start reading everything new and I’ve found them really hit and miss. I’m not sure I can even pick a favorite. I’m reading the first Battlefront tie-in now and then I think I’m going to read the old X-wing series all the way through.

I think some of the new novels (like Dark Disciple or Catalyst for example) fill in gaps in the story, but they’ve missed a lot of opportunity to make a cohesive whole. So many of them are just one-offs since authors aren’t allowed to know the movie plots ahead of time - they’re just given tiny pieces of the story pie to work with.

The first battlefront tie in was really interesting gritty war story stuff - I loved it! Very unusual type of book to see in the SW camp

Straying off topic, I know, but the few new canon books I've read so far have been very good.

Lost Stars was great and a terrific dose of nostalgia as the story is woven through the events of the original trilogy. My favorite aspect of this story is that you get to experience those events from the perspective of some Imperials.

I just finished the Ahsoka novel which I really enjoyed. It follows Ahasko hiding from the Empire a year or two after it is first established.

I'm currently working on Bloodline which focuses on Leia and is set approximately 15 years before TFA, so it is setting some background info for the current trilogy there. I'm about a third of the way through and so far so good on that one.

BTW, I just started listening to The Shuttle Tydirium podcasts starting with Ep.1. I'm on Ep.9 now and am really enjoying it so far!

@Babaganoosh - an idea for your turrets that's proven highly successful at capture the thematically of Star Wars in practice.

• Attack Value: 1
• Range 2-5
• I gave them 3 hull one agility for defense
• If the attack hits cancel the results and deal 3 critical damage

The turrets aren't good at hitting starfighters like Xwings but are worrying enough that they can't ignore them anyway. Always hated the sandpaper turrets in say, HotAC.

@heychadwick - you and I need to have words about quoting out of context and tone of voice. I'm three or four times been quoted by you on the show as though I'm complaining about your casual ideas. C'mon, really?

2 hours ago, Scrivner said:

BTW, I just started listening to The Shuttle Tydirium podcasts starting with Ep.1. I'm on Ep.9 now and am really enjoying it so far!

Woohoo! We do get better after the first 1-2 episodes. I think too much pent up frustration about tournaments fueled those episodes. We are pretty laid back now.

2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

@heychadwick - you and I need to have words about quoting out of context and tone of voice. I'm three or four times been quoted by you on the show as though I'm complaining about your casual ideas. C'mon, really?

Doh! I don't recall. I'd have to go back and listen. I never figured you would complain about something casual and don't mean to suggest that you would. I'd figure you would more refine the idea due to your expertise on the matter.

On 6.2.2018 at 10:43 PM, Babaganoosh said:

Poe is unbelievably good - I mean that in the literal sense of the word, in that his piloting abilities are beyond what I would find believable. That he's good against turrets is no surprise though;

Odd. I give him **** for going down like a punk again and getting into problems by turrets and a few TIE-Fighters. And the turrets not even meant to deal with fighters, but rather incoming smaller capital ships.
Those "point defense" guns are big enough to take out Hammerheads and similar nuisances, meanwhile the dreadnought is basically a super star destroyer with one giant main gun to take out enemy fleets. The "plot hole" in this context is not that the ship lacks anti-fighter turrets, the "plot hole" is that the first order should have launched fighters 5 minutes ago AND have smaller capital ships as close escort for their dreadnought. But the central theme of the movie is screwing up and it delivers plenty of screw ups by daddies best and only son Armitage Hux.

"Armitage is a weak-willed boy. Thin as a slip of paper and just as useless. But I'll teach him." - Brendol Hux

32 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Odd. I give him **** for going down like a punk again and getting into problems by turrets and a few TIE-Fighters. And the turrets not even meant to deal with fighters, but rather incoming smaller capital ships.
Those "point defense" guns are big enough to take out Hammerheads and similar nuisances, meanwhile the dreadnought is basically a super star destroyer with one giant main gun to take out enemy fleets. The "plot hole" in this context is not that the ship lacks anti-fighter turrets, the "plot hole" is that the first order should have launched fighters 5 minutes ago AND have smaller capital ships as close escort for their dreadnought. But the central theme of the movie is screwing up and it delivers plenty of screw ups by daddies best and only son Armitage Hux.

"Armitage is a weak-willed boy. Thin as a slip of paper and just as useless. But I'll teach him." - Brendol Hux

I mean, point defense implies an effectiveness against missiles and/or starfighters (turbolasers being typical anti-ship weapons). The point defense turrets are explicitly labeled as such in the visual guide, too. Also, if we compare visually against anti-ship turrets, there's a clear difference (think turbolasers on the death star or on star destroyers). These point defense guns look a lot like modern CIWS turrets on naval vessels actually. Bottom line is that we don't have all the details, but their function seems pretty straightforward to me. Poe's just really good.

For comparison:

2 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:

Poe's just really good.

Based on the visuals? Nah. Slow firing, slow moving projectiles. Nothing really dangerous to fighter aces. On top there are only like one per square mile of area to cover. And they don't seem to be able to cover the whole distance of the ship they are protecting either.

Furthermore we in star wars that turbolasers have trouble with tracking even 150m long vessels like a CR90, so having smaller point defense canons to deal with this kind of popular rebel alliance and new republic strategie of strafing or suicide runs with corvettes or the new B-SF 17 Bombers, which would be dangerous if kept unchecked for bombing runs.

Your real life example has btw a gatling gun, while the lasers show an artillery like fire rate and behave nothing like point defense auto-blasters at all ;-)

2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Based on the visuals? Nah. Slow firing, slow moving projectiles. Nothing really dangerous to fighter aces. On top there are only like one per square mile of area to cover. And they don't seem to be able to cover the whole distance of the ship they are protecting either.

Furthermore we in star wars that turbolasers have trouble with tracking even 150m long vessels like a CR90, so having smaller point defense canons to deal with this kind of popular rebel alliance and new republic strategie of strafing or suicide runs with corvettes or the new B-SF 17 Bombers, which would be dangerous if kept unchecked for bombing runs.

Your real life example has btw a gatling gun, while the lasers show an artillery like fire rate and behave nothing like point defense auto-blasters at all ;-)

i think the turrets were keeping Poe pretty busy; in any case they would have been able to nail bombers which is what he was worried about anyway. Check the footage!