Hi all!

If you used or played against gauntlet fighters, share your experience, please!

So far what I got: solo (not the movie) Saxons raid easily countered by a single comms net flotilla. Mass of them: damage output issues. Still, gonna field Saxon for his ability, but its raiding is unreliable, unless you took out all comms net, Leia, Tarkin, Garm, Hondo, etc etc. So late game. With masses of them, the late game wont be favourable...

All I know of is @Drasnighta using them on his newest update to the Nose Punch (4.0), not sure how well they worked tho

Why masses?

is two masses?

is Saxon and Jendon masses?

the point for me is not so much that one is countered by a Comms Net flotilla... One forces activation order and makes the opponent pop or use their things.

A second then EXPLOITS it.

Damage is still decent, too... Raidvis optional, and once ive locked eng away in the late game I’m rolling 2 damage a lot of the time with Saxon... Since I think his average is 1.25.

i mean, for his points, sure, he’s no firespray... but in some ways he’s better.

Raid was the absolute highlight of my tournament.

Telling an ISD it can’t engineer for 3 rounds is beautiful.

Flotillas used for Relay squads suddenly can’t Squad... because they can’t scatter a Raid away, after all...

There is a stupid amount of potential there.

The damage output is low. While good against squad commanding flotillas, it often times has damage output issues.

To confirm: spending a hit for raid cannot be cancelled by Scatter? (Makes sense, just checking).

I haven't had any experience with them yet but while the raid token can be relatively easy to remove it still requires a plan to do so disrupting the flow of your opponents strategy. It is essentially the distraction jab in comparative fighting not designed to really do damage but break the opponents rythem so you can set up yours.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

The damage output is low. While good against squad commanding flotillas, it often times has damage output issues.

To confirm: spending a hit for raid cannot be cancelled by Scatter? (Makes sense, just checking).

Correct. You spend dice during the modify dice step, so before Scatter even has the chance to be used.

3 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Raid was the absolute highlight of my tournament.

Telling an ISD it can’t engineer for 3 rounds is beautiful.

Flotillas used for Relay squads suddenly can’t Squad... because they can’t scatter a Raid away, after all...

I see the potential for Flotillas. Just because you cannot scatter the assault. But these are normally (if they use the relay) so far away that it is not worth to fly to it for the assault. And if you do, you are sending over two squadrons to deny a flotilla a squadron command that would activate two squadrons (every two turns). I hope you can see the waste .

But for the ISD? You have to spend one damage to trigger it. And all you are denying him is 2 or 4 engineering points. In most cases only 2. You should have just deal the damage instead

And you are not telling the ISD that he cannot engineer. He can reveal the command, spend a token, and than he is free to resolve the dial. Or he reveal the dial, keep it as token, and can resolve the dial in the next round.

I really see no real use for the raid/assault. In best case you are stealing the ship a token, and can lower the effect with this.

In this case, I had 2 Raiders... they were hitting the ISD concurrently, jotting Enguheering and Navigate... in response, as I had killed the Comms Net flotilla, he was trying to clear, and the rogue squads would put them back on,..

im also stripping banked tokens with ICB at the same time, so perhaps the mantra is to have a layered approach

But was this effect any better than a comparable amount of points spent on dealing regular damage to the ISD (2 shield damage negates the Eng. dial and might net you a spent defense token or 2).

2 Firesprays could have done an average of 3 damage a round for a 36 point investment, and comes out on top of the Raid blocking of the dial. This efficiency gap widens if there is a BCC in range.

A comms net can sling over a Eng. token, to combo with the dial and then you are back to an even, 3 damage delt vs. 3 damage regenerated. However, if that comms net is around vs. the raid tokens, the ISD just GAINED 2 shields in the exchange.

2 base cost Gauntlet Fighters cost 40, Saxon is basically an auto include if you are taking a Gauntlet since you get so much more for your 3 extra points. So in summary, 36 points to do actual damage that cannot be avoided with a ubiquitous comms net, vs a 43 point minimum investment to deal much less damage and deny the use of a Dial that you could have outpaced with normal damage in the first place. Did I mention that Bombers can resolve Crits too...

I see that you are blocking both the Eng. and the Nav. with your Raids, assuming you hit with both. But regardless, a spent dial cancels ALL tokens no matter how many you stack up, so they are either getting their Dial or not, multiple Raid tokens is only marginally better than 1.

40 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In this case, I had 2 Raiders... they were hitting the ISD concurrently, jotting Enguheering and Navigate... in response, as I had killed the Comms Net flotilla, he was trying to clear, and the rogue squads would put them back on,..

im also stripping banked tokens with ICB at the same time, so perhaps the mantra is to have a layered approach

I saw your 4.0 list. Im not saying it cant work but it seems you give up a lot of raw firepower in favor of manipulations. Probably it suits you better, and both way can lead to victory, so it will be down to personal preferences.

For me, Ill be happy to Saxonise intel and relay, Mauler-Saxon-Jendon-Saber/Ig(shame on me, but despite his drawbacks I like it a lot) quartet will be able to deal with Dengar and Jan easily regardless of their company. But Ill stay away from the generic.

2 hours ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

But was this effect any better than a comparable amount of points spent on dealing regular damage to the ISD (2 shield damage negates the Eng. dial and might net you a spent defense token or 2).

2 Firesprays could have done an average of 3 damage a round for a 36 point investment, and comes out on top of the Raid blocking of the dial. This efficiency gap widens if there is a BCC in range.

A comms net can sling over a Eng. token, to combo with the dial and then you are back to an even, 3 damage delt vs. 3 damage regenerated. However, if that comms net is around vs. the raid tokens, the ISD just GAINED 2 shields in the exchange.

2 base cost Gauntlet Fighters cost 40, Saxon is basically an auto include if you are taking a Gauntlet since you get so much more for your 3 extra points. So in summary, 36 points to do actual damage that cannot be avoided with a ubiquitous comms net, vs a 43 point minimum investment to deal much less damage and deny the use of a Dial that you could have outpaced with normal damage in the first place. Did I mention that Bombers can resolve Crits too...

I see that you are blocking both the Eng. and the Nav. with your Raids, assuming you hit with both. But regardless, a spent dial cancels ALL tokens no matter how many you stack up, so they are either getting their Dial or not, multiple Raid tokens is only marginally better than 1.

Math only takes you so far in a competitive game. Part of the game is to get the other player to tilt. If I do damage to them (hull or shields) and they have an engineering command coming up in a round or two...well, that's part of their plan. They were expecting this. They planned for it.

If suddenly they have a raid token that is going to stop that engineering command from triggering next round, do they give up this round's squadron command to clear it so they can repair next round? Or do they push their luck this round and forget the repairs? Now you are getting into their head. This can cause them to question their plans, and can trip them up as they focus on that issue alone and miss other things.

This is where raid on fighters becomes fairly powerful. Due to their movement capabilities, they can dart all over the place and affect who you want, when you want. That GR75 is clearly going to push those bombers this round? Nope. I don't know what that ISD is planning this round, but I know in the next round or two he's going to need to repair, nope.

Sure, there are counters. Comms net can counter it fairly easily. However that is a fairly large investment to counter a fairly small investment and may require you to activate in a certain order you weren't planning on, and you likely had other plans for that comms net anyways. Sure, that ISD can drop his current command to clean the raid away, but then he just weakened his attack, or failed to command squads, or didn't get to change his speed and position in a way to give him that sweet double arc shot on one of your ships.

Raid may not be the most cost effective damage dealer, but it's the cheapest and easiest way to mess with your opponents head.

14 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Raid may not be the most cost effective damage dealer, but it's the cheapest and easiest way to mess with your opponents head.

I think this might be an advantage at first for Raid, but as time goes on its not going to be as effective since people will be expecting to get raided. While it's new they might get off, but if you're seriously planning a tourney list you're going to think in how to play against it.

Blowing their ship away is pretty effective at getting in their heads too.

Good players will not be surprised by Raid.

You want to tech and train to beat the good players, not the ones who get rattled by a new mechanic that telegraphs itself pretty hard. What else are Gauntlets good for?

What minimal investment are you talking about? Comms Net, Hondo, and just plain banking a token turn 1 are all 2 point or less solutions that address your 40+ point, non-damage dealing sneakary.

Well, I mean...

if if nothing else, the guy was asking for experiences... Not theory crafting... So I gave mine.

Raid was the highlight of my tournament, despite the poor matchups and even poorer dice rolling on my part.

And yes, my 1st round opponentbended up in second, so it certainly wasn’t a rattkedvplayer involvement, either.

7 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Correct. You spend dice during the modify dice step, so before Scatter even has the chance to be used.

Which is why Ten Nunb is such a jerk, BTW. Target the Scatter ace and detonate everyone around them.

Re: Gauntlets vs Firesprays:

@Space_Cowboy17 you are right, in that in a pure damage race the firesprays are going to beat out the raiding Gauntlets. But I think you’re neglecting the fact that raids can affect a lot more than just engineering commands. How much damage can you potentially prevent to your own ships by mucking up your opponent’s ability to Concentrate Fire, navigate, and/or activate squadrons?

Yes, with raiding you are giving up raw damage dealing efficiency, but in return you gain flexibility to undermine your opponents plans, whatever they may be.

Now, is it worth it to sacrifice that damage efficiency for mucky-muck shenanigans? I don’t know. I haven’t tried them out yet. But my point is that if you’re taking Gauntlets you aren’t doing it for raw damage output.

59 minutes ago, reegsk said:

Which is why Ten Nunb is such a jerk, BTW. Target the Scatter ace and detonate everyone around them.

Oh hmm. That's a lot more confusing than expected.

The standard crit phrasing is a sort of replacement effect, dependent on the dice still. While these "spend a hit/crit" things are not and are before scatter resolves. Very confusing.

Though, I get it. That's why Sloane's spend an acc works the same way.

17 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

Re: Gauntlets vs Firesprays:

@Space_Cowboy17 you are right, in that in a pure damage race the firesprays are going to beat out the raiding Gauntlets. But I think you’re neglecting the fact that raids can affect a lot more than just engineering commands. How much damage can you potentially prevent to your own ships by mucking up your opponent’s ability to Concentrate Fire, navigate, and/or activate squadrons?

Yes, with raiding you are giving up raw damage dealing efficiency, but in return you gain flexibility to undermine your opponents plans, whatever they may be.

Now, is it worth it to sacrifice that damage efficiency for mucky-muck shenanigans? I don’t know. I haven’t tried them out yet. But my point is that if you’re taking Gauntlets you aren’t doing it for raw damage output.

Yeah they definitely don't do as well in raw damage.

its a very list building- plan-y style of game design. While not "bad", it does reduce the ability to react on the fly, because of how specific the tools are.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Oh hmm. That's a lot more confusing than expected.

The standard crit phrasing is a sort of replacement effect, dependent on the dice still. While these "spend a hit/crit" things are not and are before scatter resolves. Very confusing.

Though, I get it. That's why Sloane's spend an acc works the same way.

Exactly. Anything that “spends” a die does so during the Modify Dice step, which is before you spend defense tokens. You spend Accuracies at this step, too. Otherwise your opponent could just Scatter or Evade before you use Accs, rendering them less useful.

15 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

Sure, there are counters. Comms net can counter it fairly easily. However that is a fairly large investment to counter a fairly small investment and may require you to activate in a certain order you weren't planning on, and you likely had other plans for that comms net anyways. Sure, that ISD can drop his current command to clean the raid away, but then he just weakened his attack, or failed to command squads, or didn't get to change his speed and position in a way to give him that sweet double arc shot on one of your ships.

20/25 points commsport vs 20/23 point gauntlet? They are pretty close in my opinion, and including 1 for activation pading is almost mandatory these days. They fill up your ships from the begining, so unless you strip those tokens, raiding will be insignificant. Also, if there is a potential of raiding, youll be always able to prepare for it with some tokens. Hondo is also a great way to get rid raid for 2 points. Maybe the best way to look at these fighters/Jyn as token strippers.

*I dont mind any raid related comment, dont hold back if there is something the community could use to learn from