6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

So...I don't hate the list, I've run similar myself (I just love the old...well, EU old...Clone Wars ships), but...

A typical Glad+Demo build (even with Engine Techs, which are certainly less critical since the nerf) is a solid 10 pts less than one of those Vics. So...replace one of those Vic-IIs with a Glad+Demo+OE+ET+APT, then you can add Leading Shots to both of your other Vics (which helps with red dice swinginess a lot - I mean, I see you are bringing DTT to help some, but I guess I tend to prefer leading shots + QBT, given the speed these ships are usually running at).

And if you really want to avoid being given first player, lemme tell ya, not much does it better than your opponent seeing a Glad+Demo on the table.

That's actually a really fair point about the first player thing. I might have to try that out.

5 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

You say 'utterly dies', but it REALLY depends on the players involved. I've gone up against Rieekan bombers without squadrons and won. It was hard fought and a VERY slim win, but it can happen if the opponent is just net listing and doesn't have the needed skill. You just COMPLETELY ignore the bombers and go full out offensive. Burn defense tokens to save 1 point of damage. Stack engineering to replenish 2 shields per turn. It's doable if you roll well and your opponent doesn't. It's definitely not an auto-loss and it's also not a guaranteed tabling for the opponent. I've practiced A LOT with multiple Vics and expect I'd do better than some rando who downloads the list and plays it for the first time.

A good player with an average list will beat an average player with a good list more often than not. Great players with great lists win championships. I'm not saying I'm a great player and I'm also not saying that my list is a great list (it's mid tier at best), but to say that it's an auto-loss list comes off as a sort of naive elitism. As my dad is found of saying, "well, with that attitude, I'm sure it feels impossible".

I understand.

But just a reminder that a lot of highly skiled players have this now. I played it vs Regional winners level players. If I had to say it in a sentence: No one cares about the ability to beat some noob net listing the list, what matters is the true matchup of two equally highly skilled players at the cut of a tournament. Only then is player skill equal enough to decide based on the list. And guess what. We have 8/10 won by 120+ squads. (Acutally, the lowest in that bracket is 129), so its really 8/10 with 129+ squads.

Just now, KrisWall said:

That's actually a really fair point about the first player thing. I might have to try that out.

...and while I'm spitballing...

I'm guessing you picked the Interdictor as the carrier for the Projection Experts because of it's 5 engineering points?

You realize that a Glad-II (picking this one because of its solid AA) with Taskmaster Grint set to trigger on engineering commands is going to be generating the same 5 engineering pts a turn, too, right? For about 23 pts less...and, as noted, MUCH better AA (and, IMHO, much better defense tokens, too, yet basically fielding the same shield levels). That would let you add another whole Gozer to the list, for activation padding if nothing else (although maybe saving enough pts in the VSD -> Demo swap that the Gozer can also be a token generator, itself)

3 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Yes. And my point was that while that Aces list would wreck 3xVSD I would've been pretty comfortable playing against it while squadronless (I ended up as #2)

Yeah. its a thing nowadays, go max or go none... (or very little, like 30 points), but anything mid-range-y gets killed without value by both sides).

27 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Vic1 with Liason, Spinals/QBT and Racks is still a good area denial investment for 88 points (especially in a Vader or Chimaera fleet)

I agree if that Vic is in your hands. But I've yet to see a Vic I be used effectively. Vic II will earn you more dice over the length of the game, and Demo comes out to 75 with APT and OE which is even better area denial. The upside is a Vic I can withstand an MC75, which Demo can't, and deal more damage than a Vic II. It also makes a great HSA ship.

10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. its a thing nowadays, go max or go none... (or very little, like 30 points), but anything mid-range-y gets killed without value by both sides).

I think there is some play in 80-100 point squad range (essentially going full squads limits fleet component too much) as long as there is a synergy with the rest of the fleet. (For example Sloane fleet with enough squads to burn braces and strong ship component).

7 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I agree if that Vic is in your hands. But I've yet to see a Vic I be used effectively. Vic II will earn you more dice over the length of the game, and Demo comes out to 75 with APT and OE which is even better area denial. The upside is a Vic I can withstand an MC75, which Demo can't, and deal more damage than a Vic II. It also makes a great HSA ship.

While true, it's a different type of area denial. Demo is a known quantity and Demo without ET and first player is not that scary. Vic1 is hard to kill in one shot, it can definitely trade up if someone is foolish enough to give it close range shot, it can put some hurt long range (5 reds are not a joke) and be navigated on demand.

2 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I think there is some play in 80-100 point squad range (essentially going full squads limits fleet component too much) as long as there is a synergy with the rest of the fleet. (For example Sloane fleet with enough squads to burn braces and strong ship component).

Meh. Multiplicative effects tends to be a thing. At some point you might as well go full. Again, the problem is taht a 90 pt group tends to die to dedicated fighter wings (with toryn, or sloane) or multiply 134 vs 92. Multiplicative slope vs additive slope. 1st order vs 0th order

@KrisWall Where is this meta? How are house prices around there? Any other ways you want to sell the area to me?

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Meh. Multiplicative effects tends to be a thing. At some point you might as well go full. Again, the problem is taht a 90 pt group tends to die to dedicated fighter wings (with toryn, or sloane) or multiply 134 vs 92. Multiplicative slope vs additive slope. 1st order vs 0th order

While true, I think there are methods to prevent that (or to delay their death until after their goal is achieved). As I said, I need to think more and explore that space (The way I see it, ISD and a meaningful 5 activations fleet doesn't leave you enough points for full squadrons while being a better value for points than full-squad fleet).

3 minutes ago, PT106 said:

While true, I think there are methods to prevent that (or to delay their death until after their goal is achieved). As I said, I need to think more and explore that space (The way I see it, ISD and a meaningful 5 activations fleet doesn't leave you enough points for full squadrons while being a better value for points than full-squad fleet).

Sure sure. Will want to see what you find. It so far hasn't worked for me.

Can you try and make your testing vs equally skilled or better players? I'm not worried about net-listing noobs, I'm worried about the Regional/National level winner who's played max squads for 2 years straight.

--

In a game meant for testing, if someone makes a huge error, I simply note it, and then we start over... most of the time. (Rarely does it get played out for practice in a crappy position, because the outcome can be foreseen and its not that fun.)

1 hour ago, PT106 said:

Likely a 6-5 autoloss after refusing the engagement. Or bombed to death.

Same issues as above.

Traded a cheap VSD for a not-so-cheap MC30.

Plus, it was a lot of fun.

12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Can you try and make your testing vs equally skilled or better players? I'm not worried about net-listing noobs, I'm worried about the Regional/National level winner who's played max squads for 2 years straight.

That part isn't easy (I don't have much time for playing/testing nowadays, there aren't a lot of players that are that skilled (esp. National-winning level, which is higher than mine ) in my area and I'm not exactly a good player as far as high-squadron fleets are concerned). But yeah, when I'm talking about results/predictions I tend to discard games where the result is achieved only due to a high skill difference

10 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Traded a cheap VSD for a not-so-cheap MC30.

Plus, it was a lot of fun.

Well, I meant that the decision to engage was wrong on the Rebel player part. However a lot of fun is THE important part, so in a normal game it makes perfect sense

To those asking where this tournament took place, it's conveniently located outside of what remains of 'The City of Brotherly Love' post-Super Bowl win rioting last night.

Top Deck Games is located in Westmont NJ. I'm pretty sure house prices are rather expensive in this neck of the woods.

3 hours ago, xanderf said:

...and while I'm spitballing...

I'm guessing you picked the Interdictor as the carrier for the Projection Experts because of it's 5 engineering points?

You realize that a Glad-II (picking this one because of its solid AA) with Taskmaster Grint set to trigger on engineering commands is going to be generating the same 5 engineering pts a turn, too, right? For about 23 pts less...and, as noted, MUCH better AA (and, IMHO, much better defense tokens, too, yet basically fielding the same shield levels). That would let you add another whole Gozer to the list, for activation padding if nothing else (although maybe saving enough pts in the VSD -> Demo swap that the Gozer can also be a token generator, itself)

Excellent call on Grint. I'd overlooked that card. You're absolutely correct on the reason for the Interdictor. I think I'm switching back to a Glad.

16 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Excellent call on Grint. I'd overlooked that card. You're absolutely correct on the reason for the Interdictor. I think I'm switching back to a Glad.

I was tinkering around with that list. Assuming you are keeping Motti...

2x VSD-II + DCAP + QBT + Leading shots

Glad-I + Demo + OE + ET + APT

Glad-II + Grint + Projection Experts

Gozanti + Comms Net

===

399 pts

I remain skeptical that 'no squadrons' is a great strategy, but that feels like it would work a bit better than your earlier 3xVid + Interdictor list, and it does have better anti-squadron capability....

(Don't have the foggiest idea what objectives would work with this list)

35 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I was tinkering around with that list. Assuming you are keeping Motti...

2x VSD-II + DCAP + QBT + Leading shots

Glad-I + Demo + OE + ET + APT

Glad-II + Grint + Projection Experts

Gozanti + Comms Net

===

399 pts

I remain skeptical that 'no squadrons' is a great strategy, but that feels like it would work a bit better than your earlier 3xVid + Interdictor list, and it does have better anti-squadron capability....

(Don't have the foggiest idea what objectives would work with this list)

Stuff that doesn't score your opponents points I find. Except maybe Most Wanted on one of the Gozantis. If they want points, they have to choose to go second (which some want to anyway).

10 hours ago, KrisWall said:

1. I rarely see people fielding enough bombers these days to be a real threat. I have yet to lose 2 Vics to bombers over the course of a game in the dozens of games I've played with this list. In theory, yes, they're a terrifying match up. In practice, I've played against bomber lists several times in a tournament setting and have won (usually 6-5, but a win is a win).

2. Outflying is certainly an option, but three Vics flown in tight formation who aren't afraid to stay at speed zero for the first 1-3 rounds have an extremely wide front arc that is very hard to avoid. Can be done, sure, but smart deployment does a lot to prevent those shenanigans. Turtling at speed zero is a crappy buy effective tactic versus fast lists.

3. This is what I would do. Having said that, few people give me first player. When they do, I set dials to speed 2 and rush towards their biggest ship. You can't really outright refuse engagement. Engagement will happen even if it happens towards game end. If I can get just one of your ships into long range with overlapping front arcs, you're eating 9red/9blue dice. That'll kill most small to medium ships. One kill and it's no longer a tied game.

2. man if you stayed at speed 0 half the game i'd give you the game and pick up my stuff

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I understand.

But just a reminder that a lot of highly skiled players have this now. I played it vs Regional winners level players. If I had to say it in a sentence: No one cares about the ability to beat some noob net listing the list, what matters is the true matchup of two equally highly skilled players at the cut of a tournament. Only then is player skill equal enough to decide based on the list. And guess what. We have 8/10 won by 120+ squads. (Acutally, the lowest in that bracket is 129), so its really 8/10 with 129+ squads.

Incorrect. I won a regional with 122 points of squads.

E's and A's to be precise.

Edit: http://www.steelstrategy.com/2017/11/aar-biggs-and-garm-at-empire-games.html

The dumb guy that brings generics to an Acehole fight says Cymoons are better because they can go Speed 3 with 2 yaw notches. I'd gladly pay 20+ points to strap Speed 3 and an extra Yaw to a DCaps VSD. Vroom vroom.

1 hour ago, Darth evil said:

2. man if you stayed at speed 0 half the game i'd give you the game and pick up my stuff

Dun say that. Waiting and keeping formation is a legitimate tactic. Consider Thrawn and his undefeatable strategy in Rebels until Konstatine decided to jump in early. Armada also lasts 6 rounds only and if one player does this for half the rounds that makes for a speedier game! It also gives the opponent abit more freedom on how to approach the castle in the early game.

The castling strategy does have its weaknesses. A buddy who thrashed me with his castle was himself thrashed by another dude flying bombers. It can also be last-first by an MSU done right.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I’m glad I’m finally not the one who has to point out that a no ship list like this utterly dies to rieekan bombers bombers.

Fyi the most recent regionals report thread another regionals has literally been won by rieekan aces. I think it’s been accounted for already but 8/10 regionals of wave 6 were won by lists with 120+ Squads.

Just keeping that in mind. It’s a small sample size. But data is data. And this is very lopsided data

How come you have to derail half the threads into squadron hate? It gets old.

It also honestly depends on the goal of the fleet really and if you want to use the fleet commands or not.

7 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Incorrect. I won a regional with 122 points of squads.

E's and A's to be precise.

Edit: http://www.steelstrategy.com/2017/11/aar-biggs-and-garm-at-empire-games.html

Big whoops, you're right. Its 122 not 129.

6 hours ago, Varyag said:

How come you have to derail half the threads into squadron hate? It gets old.

Do it for me then. Comment on the first place winners. Comment on the trend of the last 10 regionals, and 40 top 4 points of data. Do a fair job, and I'll have nothing to complain about.

This is a topic I've been thinking about recently. I would compare a Cymoon with strategic advisor ~ 116pts to a Dcap Victory ii and a gozanti ~ 111pts. They both serve similar roles and operate at low speeds. In a Sloane fleet I would probably go with the vic2/gozanti, but otherwise I think the Cymoon is better for long range firepower.