I can confirm the area that @KrisWall plays in tends to be Imperial heavy and most people do not run dedicated bomber wings.

I ended up coming in 11th using VSD's for fun at this tournament. Kris is absolutely dedicated to making VSD's shine and his play shows.

12 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Which one? Vic-based fleet, 2ISD fleet or bomber-heavy fleet?

Three VSD2s. (Two is okay, but prone to getting flanked.)

11 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

A VSD2 with Disposable Capacitors and Gunnery Team (the bare minimum to make maximum use of its ranged attack IMO) costs 95 points. A stock Cymoon with no upgrades costs 112 points.

I would still compare DC Gunnery VSD2 for 95 with at least Spinals+Gunnery Cymoon and that's 128 points. Still, whats important is that VSD2 can fill a role in a fleet without spending 100+ points for it (and this is important as points in Imperial fleet that already has an ISD are usually tight)

3 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I would still compare DC Gunnery VSD2 for 95 with at least Spinals+Gunnery Cymoon and that's 128 points. Still, whats important is that VSD2 can fill a role in a fleet without spending 100+ points for it (and this is important as points in Imperial fleet that already has an ISD are usually tight)

I don't feel the need to further upgrade the Cymoon for that comparison. It throws a similar number of long range dice every turn (5 each attack turn instead of 6 once) and has identical numbers for command, squadron, and engineering. Even if you took back the Gunnery Teams and made it a comparison at 24 points, the Cymoon would still generally edge out the VSD for raw firepower over time.

3 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

I don't feel the need to further upgrade the Cymoon for that comparison. It throws a similar number of long range dice every turn (5 each attack turn instead of 6 once) and has identical numbers for command, squadron, and engineering. Even if you took back the Gunnery Teams and made it a comparison at 24 points, the Cymoon would still generally edge out the VSD for raw firepower over time.

Well. If the goal is to maximize the number of dice at long range for initial engagement (and otherwise why would you consider DCap VSD2?), then VSD is going to easily win over raw Cymoon (6 dice with 3 blue over 5 reds that are unreliable). In my mind to effectively use Cymoon one needs to upgrade it with at least some kind of dice-fixing tech.

28 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Three VSD2s. (Two is okay, but prone to getting flanked.)

I never tried this kind of fleet as I don't see it as effective for the reasons stated above, however I played VSD-based fleets and played against VSD-based fleets (including 3VSD fleets), so I think I'm aware of VSD strong points and limitations.

42 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

So my concern with VSD2s is that the issues they have are structural in nature (as int he flaws are inherent to the platform and have to be actively worked around), and the fixes they can be granted (outside of titles) have to be substantially neutered to prevent other ships from becoming overpowered as a result. In a straight 1-on-1 comparison, a VSD2 and a Cymoon are barely even comparable. The Cymoon will win every time due to a variety of factors including superior maneuverability, greater overall repeating firepower, more hull, more shields, and better upgrade options for getting the best out of its own stats.

A VSD2 with Disposable Capacitors and Gunnery Team (the bare minimum to make maximum use of its ranged attack IMO) costs 95 points. A stock Cymoon with no upgrades costs 112 points. For that extra 17 points, you get:

1. A vastly superior maneuver chart
2. Better repeating medium-long range firepower vs most ships
3. Better anti-squadron armament
4. Better native shields and hull
5. An additional Defensive token
6. Better upgrade slots
7. Better title options

1. Vastly superior is kind of an overstatement. One on one, sure, but multiple Vics WANT to go slow and tight. I don't think I'd use speed 3 if I had it. My ships would get out of formation pretty quick.

2. Versus most ships, sure. It also costs significantly more than most ships. 5red/2blue at medium isn't much better than 3red/3blue. It's definitely less consistent. I'd rather have consistent damage than swingy damage any day. Maybe that's just how I play.

3. Eh... true, if you plan on shooting at squadrons. I generally don't.

4. Better native, yes. Native is the key word here. In a multiple Vic/Projection Experts situation, you're looking at feeding forward 6 or so shields throughout the game. With that and Motti, the Vic is the about the same or better than an ISD. ISD builds usually don't run with a PE ship and might have Motti, but I usually see other dudes in that slot.

5. Yeah, but it's a contain. Contain doesn't help against an opponent who is just trying to do gross damage. Vics want to consistently hurt you. Crits are a nice bonus, but they're not a goal. 11 damage will kill an ISD regardless of how many critical effects he contains.

6. If you intend to use them. I think Vics are best when run lean. Disposable Capacitors is a must. After that, I like DTT for dice fixing. No other upgrades. Gunnery Teams is nice, but when running three, you're looking at 21 points. I'd rather spend that 21 points on something better.

7. Same as #6. The Vic options are mediocre, but I'm looking for lean ships.

93 points for a ship that can dump 6 pretty consistent dice at long range and then 6 again the next round at medium range isn't bad.

If the VicII were a better long range sniper than the Cymoon 1 for the cost, then nobody would ever pick Cymoons since they'd be more expensive and less useful.

VicIIs should not be better than Cymoon 1s in a straight up war of attrition. That would be dumb. They can be better, however, if your fleet composition can leverage its advantages over your opponents.

I think the bigger concern is not the 1 v 1 match up. We all know that the bigger, more expensive ship wins that fight, as it should, it is an opinion issue as to if the points difference you save on the VSD is worth it to you or not. But to me, the reason I chose to take 2 Vic's is to Relay twice. They together give out a much better dice pool than a Cymoon, and by taking 2 Vics in my list I was able to push 4 groups of 2 Squads each.

After trying to make it work a lot of different ways, it is really hard to make a 2 Cymoon list that has solid fighter cover and activation count. I ended up going with the 2 Vics to allow for more squads and more relay platforms. A Cymoon and a Kitten are about the same points but I will take 2 DC Vics against those 2 any day.

There are advantages (and not just from an activation stand point, b/c Strat Adv. can really help larges in this area) to delivering damage from multiple strong shots. I also think that Quad Batt. Trts make a great add to Vics because most of the counter play against them involves outrunning them or getting in behind them.

Moff JJ makes them a usable platform in my opinion, without that, you have to spend your dials on nav. just to remain relevant to the game.

The Cymoon, and all ISD's for that matter, have the speed and durability to play from anywhere on the board, the Vic. requires a great deal of positional help. By this I mean that it needs a board edge or two to guard its flanks, must be flown in coordination with your fleet so it can not get singled out, and needs to bank Nav. early so it can play the range game well enough to get its super cool salvo in at long range where it can trade favorably. If it gets rushed and the enemy closes to Blue before a shot is taken, it negates the D.Cap and that is sorta what it needs to give it a niche that is not already done better by another platform.

For my part, BTVenger prevented me from wanting to take Vics for a long time due to the high likelyhood of getting First/Last Erased by BTA, and the Vics inability to escape due to its speed.

I think Raddus puts a great deal of pressure on BTA in a post Wave 7 world since the big target you want to hunt will drop in, in such a way as to negate BTA all together. As BTA declines from an increase in Raddus use, I think Vics can do well. Granted, they must also be able to keep Raddus off of them in the same way they needed to fear BTA.

For me, my plan is to have heavy squads capable of swatting the Raddus spotter ships as they come in. Squads can close off attack angles for Raddus and when combined with D.Cap Vics. make it hard for small spotter ships to close in to deliver their pay load in a devastating, ship killing location.

3 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

For my part, BTVenger prevented me from wanting to take Vics for a long time due to the high likelyhood of getting First/Last Erased by BTA, and the Vics inability to escape due to its speed.

I think Raddus puts a great deal of pressure on BTA in a post Wave 7 world since the big target you want to hunt will drop in, in such a way as to negate BTA all together. As BTA declines from an increase in Raddus use, I think Vics can do well. Granted, they must also be able to keep Raddus off of them in the same way they needed to fear BTA.

For me, my plan is to have heavy squads capable of swatting the Raddus spotter ships as they come in. Squads can close off attack angles for Raddus and when combined with D.Cap Vics. make it hard for small spotter ships to close in to deliver their pay load in a devastating, ship killing location.

I did play one of my games against Raddus. Solar Corona with me as second player. I turtled in the corner at speed zero and waited. I think it was round 4 before I upped to speed 1. Refusing to move or engage felt like a crappy tactic, but it was a super effective game of chicken. An MC75 popped out in turn 4 at medium range and was dead in turn 5. I think the opponent misjudged the distance and decided medium range on turn 4 was better than close range on turn 5. Versus properly placed, turtled mass Vics... there aren't many spots where you aren't taking two overlapping front arc shots after you take your first shot of the game.

5 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Refusing to move or engage felt like a crappy tactic, but it was a super effective game of chicken. An MC75 popped out in turn 4 at medium range and was dead in turn 5

That sounds more like a player's mistake than an expected result.

I still feel that any build that takes more than 2 Vic's is likely doing it wrong.

2 minutes ago, PT106 said:

That sounds more like a player's mistake than an expected result.

I still feel that any build that takes more than 2 Vic's is likely doing it wrong.

1 minute ago, Democratus said:

Likely a 6-5 autoloss after refusing the engagement. Or bombed to death.

Same issues as above.

This is the only Vic II build you'll ever need. I would't bother with anything else because trust me, I've tried it. Pair with JJ and high activation.

Victory II (85)
• Minister Tua (2)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
= 114 Points

I predict Vics to be on the down trend for Wave 7. Vics need a lot of setting up, and Raddus messes that up. Ackbar80s still kite Vics with ET. Cymoon and ISD II is more survivable for a similar role. Kuat is the Vic I but it can go speed 3.

4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Kuat is the Vic I but it can go speed 3.

Vic1 with Liason, Spinals/QBT and Racks is still a good area denial investment for 88 points (especially in a Vader or Chimaera fleet)

19 minutes ago, Democratus said:

"And then, as Admonition unloaded into the leftmost VSD and completely jumped out of range leaving a pile of squadrons behind, he knew.... he'd ****** up."

I’m glad I’m finally not the one who has to point out that a no ship list like this utterly dies to rieekan bombers bombers.

Fyi the most recent regionals report thread another regionals has literally been won by rieekan aces. I think it’s been accounted for already but 8/10 regionals of wave 6 were won by lists with 120+ Squads.

Just keeping that in mind. It’s a small sample size. But data is data. And this is very lopsided data

To each his own. Multiple Vic2's w/DC+DTT work great for me. I've also practiced a LOT with them, so I think it's fair to say that I fly them tighter than the average bear. Probably isn't for everyone.

I don't think Raddus is actually very scary at all for certain lists because you can just speed 0 turtle and then speed back up on the turn that Raddus pops a big ship out on top of you. It can't go first, so you WILL get the chance to speed up to 1 (and thus reactivate your defense tokens) before you take a shot.

4 hours ago, KrisWall said:

I'll take the DC Vic2 every time. I played in a 12 person tournament this weekend where I fielded the following...

• 1x Interdictor Suppression Refit w/Motti + Projection Experts
• 3x Victory II-class Star Detroyers w/Disposable Capacitors + Dual Turbolaser Turrets

...

TL: DR; - A single Cymoon is better than a single DC Vic2 in a hypothetical ship to ship combat. Multiple DC Vic2's are better than multiple Cymoons in a real game.

So...I don't hate the list, I've run similar myself (I just love the old...well, EU old...Clone Wars ships), but...

A typical Glad+Demo build (even with Engine Techs, which are certainly less critical since the nerf) is a solid 10 pts less than one of those Vics. So...replace one of those Vic-IIs with a Glad+Demo+OE+ET+APT, then you can add Leading Shots to both of your other Vics (which helps with red dice swinginess a lot - I mean, I see you are bringing DTT to help some, but I guess I tend to prefer leading shots + QBT, given the speed these ships are usually running at).

And if you really want to avoid being given first player, lemme tell ya, not much does it better than your opponent seeing a Glad+Demo on the table.

7 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Fyi the most recent regionals report thread another regionals has literally been won by rieekan aces. I think it’s been accounted for already but 8/10 regionals of wave 6 were won by lists with 120+ Squads.

Out of curiosity - are you talking about MA regional or was there another one with Rieekan Aces?

2 hours ago, Stasy said:

I can confirm the area that @KrisWall plays in tends to be Imperial heavy and most people do not run dedicated bomber wings.

Where is this glorious meta of which you speak?

1 minute ago, PT106 said:

Out of curiosity - are you talking about MA regional or was there another one with Rieekan Aces?

MA. I think you posted the results no?

11 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Out of curiosity - are you talking about MA regional or was there another one with Rieekan Aces?

FFG headquarters one- I was at top table round two with a Vader dual cymoon 5(6) activations squadronless Fleet vs aces- it did not end well, though multiple mistakes were made on my end

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

I’m glad I’m finally not the one who has to point out that a no ship list like this utterly dies to rieekan bombers bombers.

Fyi the most recent regionals report thread another regionals has literally been won by rieekan aces. I think it’s been accounted for already but 8/10 regionals of wave 6 were won by lists with 120+ Squads.

Just keeping that in mind. It’s a small sample size. But data is data. And this is very lopsided data

You say 'utterly dies', but it REALLY depends on the players involved. I've gone up against Rieekan bombers without squadrons and won. It was hard fought and a VERY slim win, but it can happen if the opponent is just net listing and doesn't have the needed skill. You just COMPLETELY ignore the bombers and go full out offensive. Burn defense tokens to save 1 point of damage. Stack engineering to replenish 2 shields per turn. It's doable if you roll well and your opponent doesn't. It's definitely not an auto-loss and it's also not a guaranteed tabling for the opponent. I've practiced A LOT with multiple Vics and expect I'd do better than some rando who downloads the list and plays it for the first time.

A good player with an average list will beat an average player with a good list more often than not. Great players with great lists win championships. I'm not saying I'm a great player and I'm also not saying that my list is a great list (it's mid tier at best), but to say that it's an auto-loss list comes off as a sort of naive elitism. As my dad is found of saying, "well, with that attitude, I'm sure it feels impossible".

4 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

MA. I think you posted the results no?

Yes. And my point was that while that Aces list would wreck 3xVSD I would've been pretty comfortable playing against it while squadronless (I ended up as #2)