When DC came to armada the vsd benefitted the most from the upgrade, being able to throw the most number of long range dice at the time(unaided), and renewed its role in the game. Now with arrival of cymoon, with its 2x turbo slots, it can add SA while still having a spare slot for other turbo. Does this rival the vsdII in its place in the game?

Some points of note:

121 vs 88 cost

Long range: 6 red vs 3 red + 3 blue one-time

6 red(swingy) vs 3 red + 3 blue(less swingy) [though IF changes things]

Firing from: Large base(more area covered) vs Medium base(less area)

Yes and no. It depends alot on how you have loaded your ships and if you have Vader for Rerolls or Leading shots (VSDII Case) or Veteran Gunners.

Does its rival? Why not complement? Bring an ISD Cymoon and a VICII DCaps for a cheapo version of the dual cymoon fleet

depends on the rest of the fleet and the local 'meta'

29 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

When DC came to armada the vsd benefitted the most from the upgrade, being able to throw the most number of long range dice at the time(unaided), and renewed its role in the game. Now with arrival of cymoon, with its 2x turbo slots, it can add SA while still having a spare slot for other turbo. Does this rival the vsdII in its place in the game?

Some points of note:

121 vs 88 cost

Long range: 6 red vs 3 red + 3 blue one-time

6 red(swingy) vs 3 red + 3 blue(less swingy) [though IF changes things]

Firing from: Large base(more area covered) vs Medium base(less area)

One is speed 3, the other is speed 2.

One is a lethal killing machine, the other an antiquated death trap.

I think the fact that the Cymoon does not come standard with a Def. Retrofit makes it an actual question. With so much competing for the officer slot, Tua has a high opportunity cost, specially now with Strat. Adv. as an option.

Also, again the admiral makes a huge difference. Vics need Moff J a lot of the time to stay in the fight. Red Dice need dice manipulation to compete with the damage potential of blue dice.

I think the Vic still has a place. I ran 2 "D. Cap Artillary Vics," saturday in an OP event and won with it. I honestly wanted the Cymoon in the list, but the points worked out better with 2 D.Cap Vics.

I find the Blue dice and Capt. Jonas to be very effective at swatting Flotillas at range. Cymoons can do it too, I just like the blue dice for cases where Jonas is out of position or tied up.

Quad Batt. Trts goes a long way on Vics toward making them scary, but you can NOT fly them like an ISD. They are more a Phalanx of pikeman, compared to an ISD's cavalry charge.

I'll take the DC Vic2 every time. I played in a 12 person tournament this weekend where I fielded the following...

• 1x Interdictor Suppression Refit w/Motti + Projection Experts
• 3x Victory II-class Star Detroyers w/Disposable Capacitors + Dual Turbolaser Turrets

One of the games was against 2 Cymoons and an ISD I-class. I ended up taking first place.

Some random thoughts...

1. The Cymoon has 5 swingy dice with a low chance of accuracy at long range. The DC Vic2 has 6 less swingy dice that have a better chance of making damage stick by using accuracies. Due to being able to usually take out brace tokens at long range, I think the Vic wins this one. At medium range, the Cymoon performs better, but still not significantly better than a Vic. You're looking at 7 dice (5 red/2 blue) versus 6 dice (3 red/3 blue). Again, the Cymoon is more swingy. Spinal Armanents adds a red die to the Cymoon, but doesn't mitigate the swinginess. It just makes the swing larger.

2. If you're bulking out the Cymoons with Spinal Armaments and other things, you're looking at 121 points minimum, but probably closer to 140 per ship as you add other upgrades. Three Cymoons with SAs and someone like Vader works out to 399 points. Realistically, you'll be taking a max of 2 with maybe 2 smaller ships (like Gozanti smal) and a smallish squadron support. 3 DC Vic2's with DC/DTT and Motti floating around run 303 points. That's a slightly lesser damage output for a lower point cost.

3. If you build and fly for durability, a DC Vic2 can be harder to kill than an Imperial class. Add Motti and you're looking at 10 hull versus 11 hull. Fly in formation, and your fellow ships obstruct your sides. Take a medical frigate... er, Interdictor with Projection Experts and you end up having higher shields over the course of the game than an Imperial class. No contain doesn't actually hurt all that much since a squadronless build flown at a pretty consistent speed 1 ignores a shocking number of critical damage effects. Take damage for changing speed? Not planning on it. Etc, etc. DC Vic2's WILL die, but if you're not taking just one. If the opponent spreads his fire around, you're golden. All of your ships live. If he focus fires, one dies in the second round of engagement and maybe another dies two rounds after that. Maybe not. My experience is that more than half of the time, I end the game with one dead Vic and one really hurt Vic. Against the triple ISD (Cymoon x2/ISD1) list, I lost two Vics and the Interdictor, but only lost by a 24 point MoV after taking out both Cymoons. That's really not bad and still let me win the tournament.

4. Something, something, consistency. I'm kind of rambling at this point, but my Vic list is built for durability and consistency. It makes almost no difference which Vic you target first. Losing Vic #1 just means that Vics #2 and #3 will be doing the late game lifting. The Interdictor flies behind the Vics, so usually isn't a target. With a Cymoon list, one of your ships using has a giant "kill me first" sign hanging over it. Losing that ship generally causes your fleet to lose a lot of effectiveness in a way that doesn't happen with a list of same ships.

5. Squadrons... hmmm... So, the Cymoon players will probably have a support wing of squadrons that are designed to take out other squadrons and are generally not great against ships. Bomber wings are super risky and I don't see a lot of people taking them right now. As a multiple Vic player, I don't take squadrons at all. Sure, I'll eat some damage, but not enough to kill a Vic outright over the course of a full game. I do get a few advantages though. Let's say you take 80 points worth of squadrons and then 10 points worth of upgrade cards that deal with squadrons. You've sunk 90 points into something that doesn't do a very good job of hurting me. Chances are that you're paying for pilot upgrades that do NOTHING versus a list with no squadrons. The game ends up being my 399 points of optimized ship killing fleet versus your 310 point fleet of ships. With 310 points, I'm looking at facing maybe a single Cymoon and 3 other support ships. Single Cymoons are relatively easy to kill. After that, it's a game of picking off the easiest to kill support ships.

Apologies for the rambling.

TL: DR; - A single Cymoon is better than a single DC Vic2 in a hypothetical ship to ship combat. Multiple DC Vic2's are better than multiple Cymoons in a real game.

10 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

I'll take the DC Vic2 every time. I played in a 12 person tournament this weekend where I fielded the following...

• 1x Interdictor Suppression Refit w/Motti + Projection Experts
• 3x Victory II-class Star Detroyers w/Disposable Capacitors + Dual Turbolaser Turrets

One of the games was against 2 Cymoons and an ISD I-class. I ended up taking first place.

Some random thoughts...

1. The Cymoon has 5 swingy dice with a low chance of accuracy at long range. The DC Vic2 has 6 less swingy dice that have a better chance of making damage stick by using accuracies. Due to being able to usually take out brace tokens at long range, I think the Vic wins this one. At medium range, the Cymoon performs better, but still not significantly better than a Vic. You're looking at 7 dice (5 red/2 blue) versus 6 dice (3 red/3 blue). Again, the Cymoon is more swingy. Spinal Armanents adds a red die to the Cymoon, but doesn't mitigate the swinginess. It just makes the swing larger.

2. If you're bulking out the Cymoons with Spinal Armaments and other things, you're looking at 121 points minimum, but probably closer to 140 per ship as you add other upgrades. Three Cymoons with SAs and someone like Vader works out to 399 points. Realistically, you'll be taking a max of 2 with maybe 2 smaller ships (like Gozanti smal) and a smallish squadron support. 3 DC Vic2's with DC/DTT and Motti floating around run 303 points. That's a slightly lesser damage output for a lower point cost.

3. If you build and fly for durability, a DC Vic2 can be harder to kill than an Imperial class. Add Motti and you're looking at 10 hull versus 11 hull. Fly in formation, and your fellow ships obstruct your sides. Take a medical frigate... er, Interdictor with Projection Experts and you end up having higher shields over the course of the game than an Imperial class. No contain doesn't actually hurt all that much since a squadronless build flown at a pretty consistent speed 1 ignores a shocking number of critical damage effects. Take damage for changing speed? Not planning on it. Etc, etc. DC Vic2's WILL die, but if you're not taking just one. If the opponent spreads his fire around, you're golden. All of your ships live. If he focus fires, one dies in the second round of engagement and maybe another dies two rounds after that. Maybe not. My experience is that more than half of the time, I end the game with one dead Vic and one really hurt Vic. Against the triple ISD (Cymoon x2/ISD1) list, I lost two Vics and the Interdictor, but only lost by a 24 point MoV after taking out both Cymoons. That's really not bad and still let me win the tournament.

4. Something, something, consistency. I'm kind of rambling at this point, but my Vic list is built for durability and consistency. It makes almost no difference which Vic you target first. Losing Vic #1 just means that Vics #2 and #3 will be doing the late game lifting. The Interdictor flies behind the Vics, so usually isn't a target. With a Cymoon list, one of your ships using has a giant "kill me first" sign hanging over it. Losing that ship generally causes your fleet to lose a lot of effectiveness in a way that doesn't happen with a list of same ships.

5. Squadrons... hmmm... So, the Cymoon players will probably have a support wing of squadrons that are designed to take out other squadrons and are generally not great against ships. Bomber wings are super risky and I don't see a lot of people taking them right now. As a multiple Vic player, I don't take squadrons at all. Sure, I'll eat some damage, but not enough to kill a Vic outright over the course of a full game. I do get a few advantages though. Let's say you take 80 points worth of squadrons and then 10 points worth of upgrade cards that deal with squadrons. You've sunk 90 points into something that doesn't do a very good job of hurting me. Chances are that you're paying for pilot upgrades that do NOTHING versus a list with no squadrons. The game ends up being my 399 points of optimized ship killing fleet versus your 310 point fleet of ships. With 310 points, I'm looking at facing maybe a single Cymoon and 3 other support ships. Single Cymoons are relatively easy to kill. After that, it's a game of picking off the easiest to kill support ships.

Apologies for the rambling.

TL: DR; - A single Cymoon is better than a single DC Vic2 in a hypothetical ship to ship combat. Multiple DC Vic2's are better than multiple Cymoons in a real game.

Where are you playing that you are getting away with taking three vics, no squads and not getting wrecked by squadrons?

9 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Where are you playing that you are getting away with taking three vics, no squads and not getting wrecked by squadrons?

Exactly.

Main issues that I see with this kind of build:

1. No antisquadron plan at all (other then take it on the hull an lose some ships)

2. 4 activations and no bid.

3. Speed 2 ships with predictable flight pattern.

For this kind of fleet the opponent can:

1. Bomb it to oblivion (I would expect it to lose 1 or 2 ships to bombers, smart opponents would bomb Interdictor first)

2. Outfly it - once one is out of front arcs, it can damage those Vics in a significant way.

3. Give it first player, refuse the engagement and get automatic 6-5 victory.

10 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Where are you playing that you are getting away with taking three vics, no squads and not getting wrecked by squadrons?

All over the place. I took a variation of this list to the North American Championship last summer and finished top half. That was with a lot less practice. I'm certain I could have placed higher it I turned the clock back and replayed with more experience under my belt. I made a lot of stupid mistakes including two that turned a 7-4 victory into a 5-6 loss. The important thing to remember with a list like this is that you're not going for a 10-1 win. You know you're going to lose ships. You're going for 7s, 8s and 9s. I've never gotten worse than a 5-6 loss with a list like this.

Non-bomber squadrons just aren't that intimidating. They pretty much guarantee that I'll be losing two Vics instead of 1, but they also mean I have fewer ships to worry about. Bombers are scary, but I just don't see them all that often. When I do, I attempt to overlap flak fields. With four medium based ships, that normally means I get to fire my front arcs at ships and then get 2-3 blue dice against all of your squadrons every turn. One of two things happens. I either start killing squadrons or the opponent flies off when he realizes that he's about to start losing squadrons.

2 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Exactly.

Main issues that I see with this kind of build:

1. No antisquadron plan at all (other then take it on the hull an lose some ships)

2. 4 activations and no bid.

3. Speed 2 ships with predictable flight pattern.

For this kind of fleet the opponent can:

1. Bomb it to oblivion (I would expect it to lose 1 or 2 ships to bombers, smart opponents would bomb Interdictor first)

2. Outfly it - once one is out of front arcs, it can damage those Vics in a significant way.

3. Give it first player, refuse the engagement and get automatic 6-5 victory.

1. I rarely see people fielding enough bombers these days to be a real threat. I have yet to lose 2 Vics to bombers over the course of a game in the dozens of games I've played with this list. In theory, yes, they're a terrifying match up. In practice, I've played against bomber lists several times in a tournament setting and have won (usually 6-5, but a win is a win).

2. Outflying is certainly an option, but three Vics flown in tight formation who aren't afraid to stay at speed zero for the first 1-3 rounds have an extremely wide front arc that is very hard to avoid. Can be done, sure, but smart deployment does a lot to prevent those shenanigans. Turtling at speed zero is a crappy buy effective tactic versus fast lists.

3. This is what I would do. Having said that, few people give me first player. When they do, I set dials to speed 2 and rush towards their biggest ship. You can't really outright refuse engagement. Engagement will happen even if it happens towards game end. If I can get just one of your ships into long range with overlapping front arcs, you're eating 9red/9blue dice. That'll kill most small to medium ships. One kill and it's no longer a tied game.

Also, important note, the VSD has the largest area front arc. Check if you don't believe me, it is noticeably wider than the ISD.

3 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Also, important note, the VSD has the largest area front arc. Check if you don't believe me, it is noticeably wider than the ISD.

I think the quasar beats it

@KrisWall , have you faced any Riekaan aces with this? A well flown aces list would have little issue with taking out a Vic every turn

105 degrees, I believe.

5 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

1. I rarely see people fielding enough bombers these days to be a real threat. I have yet to lose 2 Vics to bombers over the course of a game in the dozens of games I've played with this list. In theory, yes, they're a terrifying match up. In practice, I've played against bomber lists several times in a tournament setting and have won (usually 6-5, but a win is a win).

2. Outflying is certainly an option, but three Vics flown in tight formation who aren't afraid to stay at speed zero for the first 1-3 rounds have an extremely wide front arc that is very hard to avoid. Can be done, sure, but smart deployment does a lot to prevent those shenanigans. Turtling at speed zero is a crappy buy effective tactic versus fast lists.

3. This is what I would do. Having said that, few people give me first player. When they do, I set dials to speed 2 and rush towards their biggest ship. You can't really outright refuse engagement. Engagement will happen even if it happens towards game end. If I can get just one of your ships into long range with overlapping front arcs, you're eating 9red/9blue dice. That'll kill most small to medium ships. One kill and it's no longer a tied game.

1. I think that's changing. I would expect to see a significant amount of all-in bomber fleets soon. And a skilled player with a bomber-heavy fleet should be able to devastate you.

2. All true, however this tactic directly leads to alternative #3. Also, doing speed 0 tricks can be dangerous vs fast lists that have first-last advantage on you.

3. I believe that a good player should be able to refuse that engagement even if you want it (And once you started this tactic, you do open up the possibility of being outflanked).

(And yes, my usual 2ISD tournament fleet should be able to kill one of the victories before it shoots and win the remaining game of attrition with at least 7-3 score)

5 minutes ago, PT106 said:

1. I think that's changing. I would expect to see a significant amount of all-in bomber fleets soon. And a skilled player with a bomber-heavy fleet should be able to devastate you.

2. All true, however this tactic directly leads to alternative #3. Also, doing speed 0 tricks can be dangerous vs fast lists that have first-last advantage on you.

3. I believe that a good player should be able to refuse that engagement even if you want it (And once you started this tactic, you do open up the possibility of being outflanked).

(And yes, my usual 2ISD tournament fleet should be able to kill one of the victories before it shoots and win the remaining game of attrition with at least 7-3 score)

The question is, when have you last tried such a fleet? Or encountered it? The VSD2 gets a bad rap, but they’re good ships (Bront.)

The point about a bomber resurgence is very interesting, though.

4 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

@KrisWall , have you faced any Riekaan aces with this? A well flown aces list would have little issue with taking out a Vic every turn

Do people still fly Riekaan Aces? I haven't seen any significant presence at a tournament for a while.

To the other commenters... obviously no list is perfect and every list has a hard counter. Most people give me second player (a mistake) and most serious competitors who could pull off a forced tie don't actually want one as a 6-5 doesn't really bounce you to the top of the standings. Bomber heavy lists are a real threat, but I've never faced more than one of those at any given event. There are lots of theoretical situations where this list is bad. In practice, this list has a good chance against bomber light lists that feature at least one big ship. That describes most of the fleets at any given event.

1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The question is, when have you last tried such a fleet? Or encountered it? The VSD2 gets a bad rap, but they’re good ships (Bront.)

The point about a bomber resurgence is very interesting, though.

Yeah... if bomber heavy lists become common, I'll obviously have to adjust.

Just now, KrisWall said:

Yeah... if bomber heavy lists become common, I'll obviously have to adjust.

I love three Vics with Gunnery Team, because it creates similar long range saturation while fitting eight TIEs

8 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I love three Vics with Gunnery Team, because it creates similar long range saturation while fitting eight TIEs

I've tried that, but I don't get enough use out of Gunnery Teams. It feels like an auto-take, but it's really situational. In the round that you pop Disposable Capacitors, you have only one viable target more often than not. It's nice in the later game, but I think having the Projection Experts ship keeping a Vic alive for an extra round works better for me.

25 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

Do people still fly Riekaan Aces? I haven't seen any significant presence at a tournament for a while.

Where do you play? I’ve been to tournaments literally all over the country and I’ve seen Riekaan aces at every single one...

43 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The question is, when have you last tried such a fleet? Or encountered it? The VSD2 gets a bad rap, but they’re good ships (Bront.)

Which one? Vic-based fleet, 2ISD fleet or bomber-heavy fleet?

48 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

obviously no list is perfect and every list has a hard counter. Most people give me second player (a mistake) and most serious competitors who could pull off a forced tie don't actually want one as a 6-5 doesn't really bounce you to the top of the standings. Bomber heavy lists are a real threat, but I've never faced more than one of those at any given event. There are lots of theoretical situations where this list is bad. In practice, this list has a good chance against bomber light lists that feature at least one big ship. That describes most of the fleets at any given event.

Well, while this is true, serious competitors would also realize the danger of engaging your fleet and reluctantly accept 6-5 as opposed to going for your fleet and rewarding castling strategy by giving you 8+ victory.

I would also state that the fleet has a good chance against some bomber light lists that feature at least one big ship and will engage you. I wouldn't expect it to be true for all of those fleets (see my counterexample above)

So my concern with VSD2s is that the issues they have are structural in nature (as int he flaws are inherent to the platform and have to be actively worked around), and the fixes they can be granted (outside of titles) have to be substantially neutered to prevent other ships from becoming overpowered as a result. In a straight 1-on-1 comparison, a VSD2 and a Cymoon are barely even comparable. The Cymoon will win every time due to a variety of factors including superior maneuverability, greater overall repeating firepower, more hull, more shields, and better upgrade options for getting the best out of its own stats.

A VSD2 with Disposable Capacitors and Gunnery Team (the bare minimum to make maximum use of its ranged attack IMO) costs 95 points. A stock Cymoon with no upgrades costs 112 points. For that extra 17 points, you get:

1. A vastly superior maneuver chart
2. Better repeating medium-long range firepower vs most ships
3. Better anti-squadron armament
4. Better native shields and hull
5. An additional Defensive token
6. Better upgrade slots
7. Better title options