27 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

at least tanky lists let you play. i can enjoy a game where i lose after back-and-forth or a contest... I cant enjoy a game where i lose a 40 point ship before it performs an attack.

Alpha strikes allow a mindless victory condition: simply shoot first to win. that shouldnt be fun for anyone involved, and I'd argue that the only people who enjoy it are miserable human-troll hybrids who crave the validation of winning a game over the fun and sport of actually playing it.

Alpha striking is the equivalent of sniping at wolves from a helicopter. The whole enterprise revolves around cowardice and the pursuit of accolades you havent earned. everyone knows it isnt fair but people lie to themselves and call it a challenge, they want the trophy without investing the time, effort, and skill to win on an even field. its by definition unsportsmanlike.

Competitive games attract people with bad attitudes, but we dont need to encourage them

Look I don't entirely disagree with you, I don't like Alpha metas either. But if you nerf Harpoons before you address the other things I mentioned, Rebels win everything, always, forever, until some ungodly FAQ nerfs them. You don't want the meta to turn into SuperTank/Regen Rebels only, which I guarantee it will. Rebels are already dominating competitive, and the only thing a Harpoon nerf will do is ensure that no Imperial or Scum lists ever make a cut ever again.

3 minutes ago, Squark said:

Just to be clear, most people defending Harpoons don't actually like them. They're blatant power creep and a perfect example of condition cards done wrong.

3 minutes ago, Squark said:

I think it's worth pointing out that the unwritten second half of, "Don't nerf harpoons," is, "without hitting Kanan, Assaj, and the Wookiee Gunship as well."

This. Exactly!

I think they're undercosted. I like the condition and the card's mechanics, but they outclass all the other missiles which is my only real gripe with them.

A friend of mine suggested that the condition should only be applied to hull. I think this would a solid tweak to harpoons as it would be the least disruptive in terms of errata, and it also means people may prefer to take other missiles for alpha strikes.

Ok so in 6-9 months when the FAQ hits Harpoons will probably suffer a nerf, most likely in a slight mod if the condition. This will do little to mitigate the disruption that has caused all othe missiles to be shelved at this time. Instead I would like to see something simple yet effective (any or all of the following):

cost set to 5 pts.

range set to 3

TL gets spent

something that costs like Concussions and acts like Assault Missiles yet doesn’t spend a TL shows that the designers learned nothing from before (Jumpmaster, Nym/Genius, Phantoms). Objectively Harpoons are the only choice for ordnance as long as you can spare 4 pts. Even Blount will take them over Advanced Homers. What a shame, I liked the idea of ordnance that ‘stuck around’ with a threat of blowing everything up.

i guess it’s not a bad situation if you are willing to give up on other builds or if you like flying Black One, Expert Handling, Countermeasures and Jamming tech.

At least Plasma torps were not the reason Triple Toiletseats were such a powerful alpha list.

2 hours ago, Squark said:

See, the thing is, after a while, it becomes apparent that unless you bring sufficient offense, super tanky builds don't actually let you play the game. For a while, they let you fool yourself into thinking you're playing a game. But after a certain point, it becomes clear things have been reduced to a comparison of numbers.

A truly unavoidable alpha strike is no better, although it leaves no illusion as to the essentially predetermined outcome. On the other hand, duels between alpha strikes at least end quickly, whereas two tanky behemoths having a slap fight takes forever. However, a more reasonable alpha strike turns combat into a deadly dance where one mistake means death, but the right move can mean ruin for your opponent; The quintessential arc dodging experience Palp Aces... wasn't, when it was at its height.

Just to be clear, most people defending Harpoons don't actually like them. They're blatant power creep and a perfect example of condition cards done wrong. But hyper defense is also very bad for the game (Which is worse ultimately comes down to taste). Finally, I think it's worth pointing out that the unwritten second half of, "Don't nerf harpoons," is, "without hitting Kanan, Assaj, and the Wookiee Gunship as well."

i agree with most of what youre saying.

in a tank list vs non tank list you can at least punish the tank for mistakes though.

for example as 5 khiraxz vs miranda +________, you could easily kill her in one go if she accidentally puts herself at range 1 in arc of your squad. 5 attacks at 4 dice each on 2 agility oughta end it, and beating the rest of that list should be easy. im not saying its a fair fight, but superior flying will defeat inferior flying in that scenario.

most alpha strikes in any game rely on the basically unavoidable moment that you are trying to aproach. most of the time if you move into range its almost impossible to do so while not being in arc, and if you are then its over. not really any chance to out-fly your opponent

19 hours ago, Astech said:

When actually playing against Harpoons, if you don't have ships that can go speed 4 or faster without stressing themselves you've already lost, since a wily opponent can always get the shot. Otherwise, you just outplay them and hang on the edge of R3, them move to R1 the next turn, which they can't avoid.

If they're really bugging you, run LoneWolf/Advanced Optics/BB8 Poe with the Black One title and solo their 100 points of Harpoons with a 40 point ship.

For real. Playing an ordnance list against countermeasures or Black One is really tough. The last time I had that matchup I got maybe 1 missile off the whole game. We may see more counter target lock stuff introduced to bring some more options into counterplay against missiles and torps.

I really want to see a solid Torpedo option come out. Maybe one that gives you some kind of bonus if you have attack 3 or higher so it acts as a soft buff for B-wings and X-wings.

May you find nothing but Harpoons and Bombs, Unerfed Jumpmasters, Pre-Nerf TIE Phantoms, PWT Turrets and TLTs and everything you hate in X-wing.

Someday I actually want to try this. But I have the feeling 3 Scouts will still murder everything. Not even black one works against Deadeye. lol

Oh don't forget, you'd have to roll back the 1/2 value large ship rule, lol 3 scouts would be so disgusting hahaha

Maybe pre-nerf Phantom might.... do it....

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, I think this is the biggest thing right here. It's generally not as much fun to get nuked off the board first-turn.

As to Harpoons specifically, I'll beat my drum as always for 5 points. They'd still probably be the best missile, but it makes list-building interesting again, since you wouldn't have to pay an extra point if you think Homing Missiles (slight buff suggestion: errata to "the defender cannot add evade results" to catch Reinforce tokens and things like Latts Razzi) are a better meta call, and Concussion are still there if you can't afford the extra point.

Blocking 3PO, Evade tokens, reinforce tokens, Lowhhricks ability, etc all in one missile. I am not sure if anyone would take the 4 point harpoons anymore.

Pre-nerf wars - 3 scouts vs Echo Whisper.

7 hours ago, BVRCH said:

I think they're undercosted. I like the condition and the card's mechanics, but they outclass all the other missiles which is my only real gripe with them.

A friend of mine suggested that the condition should only be applied to hull. I think this would a solid tweak to harpoons as it would be the least disruptive in terms of errata, and it also means people may prefer to take other missiles for alpha strikes.

first off, I like the concept, but i really think its flawed mechanic wise.

The potential 4 damage harpoon will punch through most shields and apply condition regardless.

the only ships which dont worry about this are tank ships with large shields. ironically these ships are the only justification for harpoons, so not a great solution.

Finally, heres a list of ships without shields at all:

Tie Fighter

Tie bomber

Tie interceptor

Quadjumper

These are already weak, underplayed ships. is it really fair to leave them vulnerable to an overpowered element of gameplay while reducing its effectiveness against everything else?

Congratulations, this thread got the Krayt Dumpsterfire (tm) label

15 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

first off, I like the concept, but i really think its flawed mechanic wise.

The potential 4 damage harpoon will punch through most shields and apply condition regardless.

the only ships which dont worry about this are tank ships with large shields. ironically these ships are the only justification for harpoons, so not a great solution.

Finally, heres a list of ships without shields at all:

Tie Fighter

Tie bomber

Tie interceptor

Quadjumper

These are already weak, underplayed ships. is it really fair to leave them vulnerable to an overpowered element of gameplay while reducing its effectiveness against everything else?

The fact that it makes the alpha stike a LOT less potent against most lists in the meta is probably enough to let those ships in though. WHen you're unlikely to deal a card even against 2-agi 2-shield ships, let alone anything with more shields than that, it makes your alpha much less strong, at which point paying less and bring Cruise, or paying a point more for Homing, might be better.

And when they're less well-used, those low shield high hull ships can come back simply because the things that suppress them aren't there any more.

It's not the perfect fix by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the best I've seen proposed, one that actually addresses the problems with the thing, rather than just blanket increasing the cost, or overkill decreasing the power.

Harpoon Missiles are fine - their offense power creep is only keeping pace with the hull/shield power creep of recent waves.

15 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Harpoon Missiles are fine - their offense power creep is only keeping pace with the hull/shield power creep of recent waves.

Neither of those things are fine.

7 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Blocking 3PO, Evade tokens, reinforce tokens, Lowhhricks ability, etc all in one missile. I am not sure if anyone would take the 4 point harpoons anymore.

Homing with such a wording would be good against some ships (as named; doubly-good against a C-3PO/Evade Millennium Falcon, though). Ignoring one Evade-adding ability is about the same as adding a damage. However, Harpoons would still add damage to everything they hit (not just Evade-adding ships) if you can follow up with a Crit, and have the potential to splash damage too, for even more. If Harpoons are one point cheaper, they'd still probably be picked the majority of the time.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Homing with such a wording would be good against some ships (as named; doubly-good against a C-3PO/Evade Millennium Falcon, though). Ignoring one Evade-adding ability is about the same as adding a damage. However, Harpoons would still add damage to everything they hit (not just Evade-adding ships) if you can follow up with a Crit, and have the potential to splash damage too, for even more. If Harpoons are one point cheaper, they'd still probably be picked the majority of the time.

Because people will bet doing 1 point of extra damage sometimes against not doing damage at all sometimes ;-)
4 hits are still just 4 hits, something which is not only dodgeable, but the condition can be removed as well before you get your chance to even trigger it.

Meanwhile those homings could do up to 3 extra damage against exactly those target against which you need that extra damage with an alpha strike list and doing 1 damage less against those targets which die quickly to alpha strikes anyway.

Call me unconvinced with your theorey. ;-)

57 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Because people will bet doing 1 point of extra damage sometimes against not doing damage at all sometimes ;-)
4 hits are still just 4 hits, something which is not only dodgeable, but the condition can be removed as well before you get your chance to even trigger it.

To be fair, if harpoons were only doing 4 hits, I would be fine with them. It's the potential to provide 5th hit (and splash) in the same round that pushes them over the top for me. Keep in mind that some squads are built to guarantee that crit to trigger harpoons same round.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Because people will bet doing 1 point of extra damage sometimes against not doing damage at all sometimes ;-)
4 hits are still just 4 hits, something which is not only dodgeable, but the condition can be removed as well before you get your chance to even trigger it.

Meanwhile those homings could do up to 3 extra damage against exactly those target against which you need that extra damage with an alpha strike list and doing 1 damage less against those targets which die quickly to alpha strikes anyway.

Call me unconvinced with your theorey. ;-)

Homing can also whiff entirely. Fly against Poe/Dash, and the extra Homing text does literally nothing. And I think you're severely underestimating the impact of that damage from an exploding Harpooned! condition. I've also never seen anyone discard their Harpooned!, since it still can do damage, and folks try to leverage the threat of splash damage. And while doing 3 extra damage with a Homing is possible, there aren't many ships which can make that happen. Two isn't uncommon (Timewalk Asajj joints a C-3PO Falcon, between an Evade token and Latts Razzi), but three is going to be a rare occurrence.

Anyhow, I'll admit that it's all just a theory, and things would be unknowable until such a change was made. At equal points, I think a lot of folks, perhaps most folks, would switch to errata-Homing, if only because they're easier. This might lead to increased ship counts and fewer Homing-vulnerable ships, which in turn leads to a shift back towards Harpoon, etc. However, if Harpoons are 4 points, I think that's still the predominant upgrade, because it'd be cheaper.

TLT? Re-enforce?

22 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

It would make Miranda players actually have to learn how to fly, as they couldn't just putter randomly around the board firing tlt and running out the clock.

Yes, so very this. Though this is a very good strategy to win the game, it's not playing the game. This enigma of regen as a game mechanic is unavoidable; it is strangling the life from the game, as it ironically creates "winners."

16 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

couldnt agree more about pilot skill and getting nuked. i view missiles as a pilot skill buff, when the current importance of pilot skill is already a detrimental factor in gameplay. veteran instincts is a poison pill, creating more problems than it solves, adaptability too. would harpoons be fun at 5 points... maybe? might take more than that to discourage over use, and alpha strike will still be a negative player experience

Yes, VI was a game mechanic mistake, agreed.

But ask yourself @Vontoothskie: 1) what was harpoons OK-ed by the designers to be added into our game? 2) What does it triumph over that other mechanics simply cannot?

Are Harpoons OP? Maybe. But if you answer the above two questions, you'll see what disease has to be cured before this medication is removed.

7 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Neither of those things are fine.

Both are reality and neither will change. It's completely pointless to pretend otherwise.

10 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Neither of those things are fine.

Probably, true on the one, definitely on the second.

2 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Both are reality and neither will change. It's completely pointless to pretend otherwise.

Maybe, yes.

But hey, worry not about Harpoons...we have the game's savior squad that can be well-flown by almost any player with some reps: !!!Kanan Fenn!!!

^^^ Precisely this.

The hyper defense squads are so far off the chain that you need something ridiculous like Harpoon Missiles to even scratch the paint. But yeah, hate on the harpoons even though they're your last best hope against the real bad guys.

"A is broken ! Let's NOT fix it, because B is broken also !"