7 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

alpha strikes are not fun to experience and remove the bulk of pilots and strategies from competitive play. please nerf

Perhaps if you let yourself get alpha-striked, your strategy was wrong?

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

Harpoons are the only thing making arc dependant small based ships viable. The only swarms that are seeing play at all are harpoon swarms. I don't know what x wing you're playing or watching, but here in early 2018 we're trapped in a **** of defensive stacking fortresses that nothing except harpoons can do damage to. All primary weapons should be replaced with harpoons.

See, I don't believe that. Yes, Harpoons are helping some small bases out, but they are not the only thing making small base, arc locked ships viable. If you check out the Regionals Results page, you'll see several examples of small based, arc locked ships with no Harpoons taking the top slot. Expand your scope a little more, and you see more of them making top cuts. Heck, a Palp Aces list had a 15-0 weekend during PAX South.

Harpoons help small bases, but are definitely not the only thing making them viable.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

At this point any change to Harpoon will immediately replace that missile with concussions. Same price and extremely similar expected hits. No condition, so no additional splash, but that is not only negative

I'm ok with this.

No condition, no splash, and no maintaining the target lock.

I'd be quite glad to see a missile (or even, le gasp, a torpedo) which was just 'attack TL, 4 dice, discard this card to make the attack'.

That would be pretty squarely balanced.

7 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Heck, a Palp Aces list had a 15-0 weekend during PAX South.

You know, Palp Aces list thrive on high damage ordnance meta, because they can dodge arcs and survive 4 dice attacks instead of losing half their HP in an alpha strike, they can take two harpoons and still have another turn.

I like the point you make, but it's not as solid as you make it sound, because you don't have to use harpoons to profit from the changes to the meta they make. Now Ghost-Fenn clearly is completely independent from harpoons and would have been a better point.

I don't think Harpoons are a problem.

What I'd like to see is a modification that lets you equip another modification and also keep the target lock when firing a missile, so that other missiles see play, and we don't have just one really good missile.

Just now, Kieransi said:

I don't think Harpoons are a problem.

What I'd like to see is a free modification that lets you equip another modification and also keep the target lock when firing a missile, so that other missiles see play, and we don't have just one really good missile.

We have cruise missiles, concussions and homings as well, all solid missiles even when currently a little behind the curve. Homing missiles can be especially good if we see more evade tokens again in the meta.

4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I don't think Harpoons are a problem.

What I'd like to see is a modification that lets you equip another modification and also keep the target lock when firing a missile, so that other missiles see play, and we don't have just one really good missile.

You know, I was thinking, "what if they errata'd Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes to keep the Target Lock, maybe then Harpoons may not be the only ordnance that sees play" and then I realized that this doesn't get us out of the "Alpha-or-GTFO" situation, it just makes it prettier by painting over the rot.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

We have cruise missiles, concussions and homings as well, all solid missiles even when currently a little behind the curve. Homing missiles can be especially good if we see more evade tokens again in the meta.

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. If I could pay like 1 point to make those missiles let me keep the Target Lock, I'd likely never fly Harpoons again.

Just now, kris40k said:

You know, I was thinking, "what if they errata'd Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes to keep the Target Lock, maybe then Harpoons may not be the only ordinance that sees play" and then I realized that this doesn't get us out of the "Alpha-or-GTFO" situation, it just makes it prettier by painting over the rot.

Not sure we actually have an "alpha-or-GTFO" situation... I see a lot of bunkers, arc-dodgers, aces, and fat turrets amongst the top lists, none of which usually utilize an alpha strike.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

You know, Palp Aces list thrive on high damage ordnance meta, because they can dodge arcs and survive 4 dice attacks instead of losing half their HP in an alpha strike, they can take two harpoons and still have another turn.

I like the point you make, but it's not as solid as you make it sound, because you don't have to use harpoons to profit from the changes to the meta they make. Now Ghost-Fenn clearly is completely independent from harpoons and would have been a better point.

I'm looking at it more from a damage dealing point of view. Palp Aces have to get people in arc and deal damage with primaries. And that they are succeeding in doing so shows that HHarpoons aren't the only way to destroy things if you don't have a Turret.

Defensively, yeah, Palp Aces are very well suited for dealing with Harpoons, but I still see that as disproof that Harpoons are the only thing keeping small base, arc locked ships viable. Again, that guy at PAX South didn't fight all Harpoons, all the time. He had to also overcome non-ordinance lists and he still did it.

i didn't use Fenn/Ghost because while Fenn is a good example, he's not the one doing the killing. That goes to his big based, usually turreted buddy. A recent regional win with Poe, Fenn, and Lowy is probably a good compromise.

Concussions with keeping the target lock are nasty too. Chips + missile effect are two hits and having the target lock would increase it to 3.9453125 hits on average.

4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. If I could pay like 1 point to make those missiles let me keep the Target Lock, I'd likely never fly Harpoons again.

Not sure we actually have an "alpha-or-GTFO" situation... I see a lot of bunkers, arc-dodgers, aces, and fat turrets amongst the top lists, none of which usually utilize an alpha strike.

Yeah, I wouldn't even make them cost 1 point more or take yet another fix-card, just errata them and move on. Also, I'm not really hellbent about the Alpha-or-GTFO line. Harpoons are really powerful, and I'm just not sure that making Concussions and Protons just as powerful would help or hurt things more, as it would mean more and more ordnance lists, therefore more Alpha games. Although seeing torp capable boats able to compete in the game would be cool.

Things that need a nerf BEFORE Harpoons:

1.) Remove the Scurrg's EPT on all pilots.

2.) Restrict Miranda's pilot ability to only work with her Primary weapon.

3.) Change TLTs to range 1-2.

4.) Change Reinforce on small ships to read: "If you take Hull damage from any source, you immediately lose any Reinforce tokens currently on your ship."

Then, and ONLY then am I willing to entertain Harpoon nerf. Yes, they are better than any other missile by a wide margin. Yes, they promote an alpha-strike meta. But if you nerf them without the above getting nerfed first, all you'll do is turn the meta into a 100% Rebel tank/regen fest- which is SOOOOOOOO boring/aggrivating to play/play against.

Or we could just leave it alone and embrace the relatively diverse meta.

5 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Concussions with keeping the target lock are nasty too. Chips + missile effect are two hits and having the target lock would increase it to 3.9453125 hits on average.

Yeah, exactly my point! My idea would be a 1-point mod, So this kind of thing would cost 5 points, and likely be just a little bit better than Harpoons. Also makes you think a little more when building an alpha-strike list. Not just "oh, I'll slap a bunch of Harpoons on there", but "do I want Concussions to try to hit high-agility Aces? Assault Misiles to get splash damage? Cluster Missiles to deal the maximum amount of damage?"

3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Yeah, I wouldn't even make them cost 1 point more or take yet another fix-card, just errata them and move on. Also, I'm not really hellbent about the Alpha-or-GTFO line. Harpoons are really powerful, and I'm just not sure that making Concussions and Protons just as powerful would help or hurt things more, as it would mean more and more ordnance lists, therefore more Alpha games. Although seeing torp capable boats able to compete in the game would be cool.

See above - I like the sentiment, but I don't think we can just errata the other missiles to not spend a lock without making some of the missiles completely overpowered - other than the keeping the lock thing, Harpoons aren't actually a great missile. Plus, the devs are usually a little bit shy about saying "oopsies, we goofed, here's an errata!", they'd rather make a fix card and be like "uh, it's a new upgrade option that comes with a slight drawback, and, uh, gives people more listbuilding choices..."

3 minutes ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

2.) Restrict Miranda's pilot ability to only work with her Primary weapon.

Nope. In arc only. K-wing as an ordnance carrier is a hundred times better than fleeing regening turret.

1 minute ago, Giledhil said:

Nope. In arc only. K-wing as an ordnance carrier is a hundred times better than fleeing regening turret.

I could see that too. Ijust figured Primary only would be an actual drawback to regen for her attack- whereas with TLT it's a no-brainer. Plus it keeps her from buffing up to a 5 dice Harpoon missile.

8 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

I'm sorry, but I have to cite this as a case of Scissors complaining that Rock is overpowered

We just had a thread about how RPS is a poor design paradigm for X-Wing.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/268532-introducingan-actual-game-design-topic/

4 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

We just had a thread about how RPS is a poor design paradigm for X-Wing.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/268532-introducingan-actual-game-design-topic/

Yeah I read that post and disagreed with most of it, but didn’t bother to respond because I didn’t want to take the time to pick it apart. Basically I found it to be based on faulty premises with a healthy dose of oversimplification mixed in. I don’t believe the game designers are actively trying to create a Rock Paper Scissors gaming environment (otherwise they wouldn’t have driven swarms out of the Meta), rather I think it’s a natural progression of the various interactions of game mechanics. Thing A is good against Thing B, but not so great against C. C is balanced with B, but both lose to D. Etc.

It’s gotten to the point where it’s become easy to refer to the RPS paradigm because everyone immediately knows what you’re talking about.

Hence my post which you quoted.

1 hour ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

I could see that too. Ijust figured Primary only would be an actual drawback to regen for her attack- whereas with TLT it's a no-brainer. Plus it keeps her from buffing up to a 5 dice Harpoon missile.

It would make Miranda players actually have to learn how to fly, as they couldn't just putter randomly around the board firing tlt and running out the clock.

11 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

alpha strike as a strategy is trying to kill an opponent before they get to play. youre basically trying to end the game without allowing your opponent to play their squad. that is not a strategy that belongs in any game

They aren't stopping you from playing. They are presenting you with a threat you have to deal with (just like every other mechanic in this game). You have the ability to avoid the alpha strike. Range control. Arc dodging. Blocking to stop actions. Forcing them to split fire.

Anyone ever thought about making them unique?

15 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

alpha strikes are not fun to experience and remove the bulk of pilots and strategies from competitive play. please nerf

I mean, I think this is the biggest thing right here. It's generally not as much fun to get nuked off the board first-turn.

As to Harpoons specifically, I'll beat my drum as always for 5 points. They'd still probably be the best missile, but it makes list-building interesting again, since you wouldn't have to pay an extra point if you think Homing Missiles (slight buff suggestion: errata to "the defender cannot add evade results" to catch Reinforce tokens and things like Latts Razzi) are a better meta call, and Concussion are still there if you can't afford the extra point.

I also think there are long-term issues with Pilot Skill. I'd love to see Adaptability's +1 side go to +0 (so you can reduce PS or remain the same, but not increase), and see Veteran Instincts become a discarded, 1-round only buff to 8 PS for generics, 12 PS for unique pilots. This, too, would add fun back into the game, since pilots would take Elite upgrades which actually do something interesting, rather than a boring stat increase.

14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, I think this is the biggest thing right here. It's generally not as much fun to get nuked off the board first-turn.

As to Harpoons specifically, I'll beat my drum as always for 5 points. They'd still probably be the best missile, but it makes list-building interesting again, since you wouldn't have to pay an extra point if you think Homing Missiles (slight buff suggestion: errata to "the defender cannot add evade results" to catch Reinforce tokens and things like Latts Razzi) are a better meta call, and Concussion are still there if you can't afford the extra point.

I also think there are long-term issues with Pilot Skill. I'd love to see Adaptability's +1 side go to +0 (so you can reduce PS or remain the same, but not increase), and see Veteran Instincts become a discarded, 1-round only buff to 8 PS for generics, 12 PS for unique pilots. This, too, would add fun back into the game, since pilots would take Elite upgrades which actually do something interesting, rather than a boring stat increase.

couldnt agree more about pilot skill and getting nuked. i view missiles as a pilot skill buff, when the current importance of pilot skill is already a detrimental factor in gameplay. veteran instincts is a poison pill, creating more problems than it solves, adaptability too. would harpoons be fun at 5 points... maybe? might take more than that to discourage over use, and alpha strike will still be a negative player experience

8 hours ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

Things that need a nerf BEFORE Harpoons:

1.) Remove the Scurrg's EPT on all pilots.

2.) Restrict Miranda's pilot ability to only work with her Primary weapon.

3.) Change TLTs to range 1-2.

4.) Change Reinforce on small ships to read: "If you take Hull damage from any source, you immediately lose any Reinforce tokens currently on your ship."

Then, and ONLY then am I willing to entertain Harpoon nerf. Yes, they are better than any other missile by a wide margin. Yes, they promote an alpha-strike meta. But if you nerf them without the above getting nerfed first, all you'll do is turn the meta into a 100% Rebel tank/regen fest- which is SOOOOOOOO boring/aggrivating to play/play against.

Or we could just leave it alone and embrace the relatively diverse meta.

at least tanky lists let you play. i can enjoy a game where i lose after back-and-forth or a contest... I cant enjoy a game where i lose a 40 point ship before it performs an attack.

Alpha strikes allow a mindless victory condition: simply shoot first to win. that shouldnt be fun for anyone involved, and I'd argue that the only people who enjoy it are miserable human-troll hybrids who crave the validation of winning a game over the fun and sport of actually playing it.

Alpha striking is the equivalent of sniping at wolves from a helicopter. The whole enterprise revolves around cowardice and the pursuit of accolades you havent earned. everyone knows it isnt fair but people lie to themselves and call it a challenge, they want the trophy without investing the time, effort, and skill to win on an even field. its by definition unsportsmanlike.

Competitive games attract people with bad attitudes, but we dont need to encourage them

25 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

at least tanky lists let you play. i can enjoy a game where i lose after back-and-forth or a contest... I cant enjoy a game where i lose a 50 point ship before it performs an attack.

Alpha strikes allow a mindless victory condition: simply shoot first to win. that shouldnt be fun for anyone involved, and I'd argue that the only people who enjoy it are miserable human-troll hybrids who crave the validation of winning a game over the fun and sport of actually playing it.

Alpha striking is the equivalent of sniping at wolves from a helicopter. The whole enterprise revolves around cowardice and the pursuit of accolades you havent earned. everyone knows it isnt fair but people lie to themselves and call it a challenge, they want the trophy without investing the time, effort, and skill to win on an even field. its by definition unsportsmanlike.

Competitive games attract people with bad attitudes, but we dont need to encourage them

See, the thing is, after a while, it becomes apparent that unless you bring sufficient offense, super tanky builds don't actually let you play the game. For a while, they let you fool yourself into thinking you're playing a game. But after a certain point, it becomes clear things have been reduced to a comparison of numbers.

A truly unavoidable alpha strike is no better, although it leaves no illusion as to the essentially predetermined outcome. On the other hand, duels between alpha strikes at least end quickly, whereas two tanky behemoths having a slap fight takes forever. However, a more reasonable alpha strike turns combat into a deadly dance where one mistake means death, but the right move can mean ruin for your opponent; The quintessential arc dodging experience Palp Aces... wasn't, when it was at its height.

Just to be clear, most people defending Harpoons don't actually like them. They're blatant power creep and a perfect example of condition cards done wrong. But hyper defense is also very bad for the game (Which is worse ultimately comes down to taste). Finally, I think it's worth pointing out that the unwritten second half of, "Don't nerf harpoons," is, "without hitting Kanan, Assaj, and the Wookiee Gunship as well."